reloading for excessive head space

Bush Pirate · January 9, 2011, 01:41 PM

I have a 25-35 win model 94 that has head space issues. The link below should be to my previous post about that issue.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420477

I am finally getting back to this project. The brass I hand loaded my first batch with, was new win 25-35 brass...All of it was shorter then case trim length. Some as much as .015-.020. The fired brass fit back into the gun without any issues.

The neck on this cartridge is long. The longest I have ever dealt with. I neck sized the brass a little over half way down the neck(about a quarter inch). Enough to hold the bullet for sure, but not all the way to the shoulder. The brass did stretch some, but it is still under the trim length. My question is should I neck size the entire neck? I figure the least amount of sizing that will still fit in chamber will be best...correct?

When shooting this gun, I have been only loading one round at a time. Will neck sizing only cause issues cycling from the magazine?

wncchester · January 9, 2011, 05:41 PM

There is little or no reason to FL size any low power cartridge as a routine thing.

There is never any reason to neck size below the base of the seated bullet.

Within reason, "head space" means virtually nothing to a knowledgeable reloader, make the sized cases fit the chamber and go.

Peter M. Eick · January 16, 2011, 09:13 AM

Were I in your shoes, I would take a fired case and make sure it would feed into the chamber with no excessive lever pressure. If it did take pressure I would stop and then resize the case just a bit and try it again. I would slowly turn the die down until I could close the lever without significant pressure. This is probably where the shoulder is just getting touched or pushed back a few thousands. I would then stop there and see how well I could seat a bullet. If I had enough bullet tension I would head to the range and try out a few loads.

The key will be the second sizing and if after they had been reshot would they still work that way.

Good luck.

**Unclenick** · January 16, 2011, 02:42 PM

Bush Pirate,

The first thing is to be sure you actually have a headspace problem. As Frankenmauser pointed out in the other thread, if the primer sticks out, the case did not recoil hard enough against the bolt face to reseat it. (All primers back out of primer pockets like little pistons under the force of their own explosion, but get reseated flush when powder gas pressure backs the case up over them.)

If you are not reseating there are two possible causes. One is that your loads are at extraordinarily low pressure. The other is that the action is opening slightly during firing.

The former can happen with squib loads or because you are using a light load of a powder way too slow for the weight of the bullet, and which therefore never burns properly. If you are seeing a lot of unburned powder and residue in the bore or around the case mouth, this is likely to be the culprit.

The other cause is not normally associated with such a mild loading as 25-35, and that is what is often called lever kickback. This is where you feel the force of firing open the lever against your hand because the bolt locking lug is getting deflected partly down out of battery. In this instance, the bolt face sort of bounces back from the case head and starts to open. By the time it is partly open, if the relatively low remaining pressure (this is happening after the bullet has cleared the muzzle) is still sticking the case to the chamber wall at all, the primer may re-unseated against the bolt face.

If you have kickback, get the gun checked out, but I still think it is unlikely with that light cartridge.

Many of the .303 British shooters (another rimmed case) put a thin o-ring over the case and against the front side of the rim for case forming. In this configuration the o-ring is compressed between the rim and the rim recess at the breech end of the chamber, preventing the case from being pushed fully forward by the firing pin and primer piston action. Typically there is enough elastic force to reseat the primer after any degree of protrusion occurs, even without much chamber pressure. So, you could try firing with this arrangement see if the protruding primer stops appearing. If it does, you are good to go as the rest of the case should now be longer by that amount. It would tell you that you just need to load to a little bit higher pressure.

The other thing is to try firing a light load made up with a fast powder. Bullseye, Unique, Universal, etc. It looks to me like about 6 grains of any one of them should be safe with any bullet weight from 60 to 120 grains. This will produce .45 ACP pressure levels, well below what the rifle can stand, but they will build pressure fast enough to have pressure to reseat the case over the primer before the bullet gets very far down the tube.

January 9, 2011, 01:41 PM	#1
Bush Pirate Member Join Date: June 2, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 54	reloading for excessive head space I have a 25-35 win model 94 that has head space issues. The link below should be to my previous post about that issue. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420477 I am finally getting back to this project. The brass I hand loaded my first batch with, was new win 25-35 brass...All of it was shorter then case trim length. Some as much as .015-.020. The fired brass fit back into the gun without any issues. The neck on this cartridge is long. The longest I have ever dealt with. I neck sized the brass a little over half way down the neck(about a quarter inch). Enough to hold the bullet for sure, but not all the way to the shoulder. The brass did stretch some, but it is still under the trim length. My question is should I neck size the entire neck? I figure the least amount of sizing that will still fit in chamber will be best...correct? When shooting this gun, I have been only loading one round at a time. Will neck sizing only cause issues cycling from the magazine?

January 16, 2011, 09:13 AM	#3
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Were I in your shoes, I would take a fired case and make sure it would feed into the chamber with no excessive lever pressure. If it did take pressure I would stop and then resize the case just a bit and try it again. I would slowly turn the die down until I could close the lever without significant pressure. This is probably where the shoulder is just getting touched or pushed back a few thousands. I would then stop there and see how well I could seat a bullet. If I had enough bullet tension I would head to the range and try out a few loads. The key will be the second sizing and if after they had been reshot would they still work that way. Good luck. __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

January 16, 2011, 02:42 PM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Bush Pirate, The first thing is to be sure you actually have a headspace problem. As Frankenmauser pointed out in the other thread, if the primer sticks out, the case did not recoil hard enough against the bolt face to reseat it. (All primers back out of primer pockets like little pistons under the force of their own explosion, but get reseated flush when powder gas pressure backs the case up over them.) If you are not reseating there are two possible causes. One is that your loads are at extraordinarily low pressure. The other is that the action is opening slightly during firing. The former can happen with squib loads or because you are using a light load of a powder way too slow for the weight of the bullet, and which therefore never burns properly. If you are seeing a lot of unburned powder and residue in the bore or around the case mouth, this is likely to be the culprit. The other cause is not normally associated with such a mild loading as 25-35, and that is what is often called lever kickback. This is where you feel the force of firing open the lever against your hand because the bolt locking lug is getting deflected partly down out of battery. In this instance, the bolt face sort of bounces back from the case head and starts to open. By the time it is partly open, if the relatively low remaining pressure (this is happening after the bullet has cleared the muzzle) is still sticking the case to the chamber wall at all, the primer may re-unseated against the bolt face. If you have kickback, get the gun checked out, but I still think it is unlikely with that light cartridge. Many of the .303 British shooters (another rimmed case) put a thin o-ring over the case and against the front side of the rim for case forming. In this configuration the o-ring is compressed between the rim and the rim recess at the breech end of the chamber, preventing the case from being pushed fully forward by the firing pin and primer piston action. Typically there is enough elastic force to reseat the primer after any degree of protrusion occurs, even without much chamber pressure. So, you could try firing with this arrangement see if the protruding primer stops appearing. If it does, you are good to go as the rest of the case should now be longer by that amount. It would tell you that you just need to load to a little bit higher pressure. The other thing is to try firing a light load made up with a fast powder. Bullseye, Unique, Universal, etc. It looks to me like about 6 grains of any one of them should be safe with any bullet weight from 60 to 120 grains. This will produce .45 ACP pressure levels, well below what the rifle can stand, but they will build pressure fast enough to have pressure to reseat the case over the primer before the bullet gets very far down the tube. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 9, 2011, 05:41 PM	#2
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	There is little or no reason to FL size any low power cartridge as a routine thing. There is never any reason to neck size below the base of the seated bullet. Within reason, "head space" means virtually nothing to a knowledgeable reloader, make the sized cases fit the chamber and go.