220 Swift v. 22-250 - Page 4

603Country · November 30, 2014, 10:31 PM

Since this chat is back, I'll respond to wyoredman's question about a 50's Swift. Actually, my first Swift was a 1953 pre-64 Win Model 70. Great rifle, but I sold it and bought that 77V tang safety Swift that I still have and reloaded for just yesterday. Just wish it would stabilize that 64 gr BSB in cold weather.

mehavey · December 1, 2014, 07:48 AM

Quote:

wish it would stabilize that 64 gr BSB in cold weather...

So it's a temp sensitive powder/velocity drop issue ?
(And it stabilitizes OK in summer temps?)

Vet66 · December 1, 2014, 09:04 AM

Lemme see, I have a Springfield 1903 re-barreled to .220 Swift, good shooter.
Next is my Winchester 70 chambered for 22.250, really a tack driver.
and, finally I have a Sako L46 chambered in .222 shoots very well, I like them all but, I give the edge to the 22.250....but that's just me.

jaysouth · December 1, 2014, 09:49 AM

False argument. Anyone who knows anything about gun, knows that the .225 Winchester beats ANY other poodle shooting caliber.

603Country · December 1, 2014, 11:18 AM

Mehavey, the 64 gr BSB did stabilize at late summer temps. Ballistic data suggested that colder weather would make it slightly less likely to stabilize. So, I waited till colder weather and found out that sure enough it was less stabilized. Still hit the paper, but groups were rather large.

The shorter 63 gr Sierra will stabilize. The longer 65 gr Sierra GK won't even hit paper at 100 yards. I have no idea where the 65 grainers went.

I really wanted to shoot those 64 gr BSB bullets in the 220.

mehavey · December 1, 2014, 11:31 AM

Sounds like the Powder's temp sensitivity is eating your velocity (which is borderline across the divide).
What powder/have you chrono'd the hot/cold difference (?)
And pressurewise, what dare you load for cold and still shoot in hot?

BTW: I find that in cold weather, ammunition that I stick in an inside pocket stabilitizes at a 65-70° temp.
For field use w/ a small handful of cartridges at a time, that works really well.

mattL46 · December 1, 2014, 12:53 PM

+111@ jaysouth!

riflemen · December 1, 2014, 01:44 PM

There are a bunch of good varmint rounds out there, I have really started to like the 204, but I have been a 22-250 guy for a long time... I have 222 which is nice, tac 20 which is very similar to 204 and I only bought it because it was an absolute steal, all the varmint calibers are awesome in their own way...
I am addicted to Cooper rifles, if you want the best varmint guns made, I have to say they sell them, I own a sako and a Blazer and the Coopers are hands down the best, varmint guns made...

My next endeavor will be 20 vartarg, 20 ppc, or 20 br, I shot a ppc at the range a while back it was nice and a short bolt throw, Ill probably go with the vartarg in a cooper montana varminter, I have been looking out on gunbroker so I dont have to special order one, but they are not popular calibers...

JD0x0 · December 1, 2014, 04:26 PM

Quote:

So it's a temp sensitive powder/velocity drop issue ?
(And it stabilitizes OK in summer temps?)

Not necessarily. Even at an equal velocity, a given bullet is usually less stable in cooler air, and lower altitudes, due to increased air density.

mehavey · December 1, 2014, 05:20 PM

True, true...

In fact I just ran rough stability calc's on the BSB at 3,800fps/14 twist/90°Temp /Sea-level and got a stability factor of 1.04 (marginal)
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

Then I dropped it to 30° (no change in velocity) and stability went to 0.923 (unstable).

.... no practical amout of velocity growth would bring it back up. (Well, a mile/second got me 1.04 again)

Live and learn stuff..... (including that fact if you went UP a kilometer, you were back in stable territory even while still freezing)

Bart B. · December 2, 2014, 07:35 AM

Like the 223 Rem, the Swift needs a faster twist for medium weight bullets. It's more important in cold weather. Run your software again but use a 1:12 twist then again with 1:11.

The 5.56 NATO first used 1:14 twists for its 50-gr bullets and had the same cold weather problems until 1:12 twists were used.

ddestruel · December 3, 2014, 01:51 AM

interesting my swift with 1:14 and 52gr or 55gr’s is still ok at sub -15 and -20 below. though I’ve had some wild shots at those temps i attributed to me pulling it. usually i shoot varmints at those temps and not paper ...... interesting point i bet a 1:12 barrel would keep her even tighter. next time she’s down at those temps i might have to hit the range with a few rifles.

my .204 has always been temperamental below 30 degrees, but the .223’s with 50 gr vmax’s and 1:9 barrels are as consistent if not more so than my .220 swift. when temps get really cold in the winter. she’s still a tack driver but your point is
interesting i wrote a lot of that off to various factors, powder, ME and Me again , then omitted never considering the twist relative to temp....

reality is at those temps i call em in to 100-150 yards rarely have i had an issue but now you have me wondering just for curiosities sake

603Country · December 3, 2014, 08:55 AM

Normally I'd say to not worry about 52 and 55 grainers as to whether or not they stabilize in a 1 in 14 twist 220, but you did say 20 below zero. Brrrrrrr. I will never know how any of my rifles act at 20 below. No sireeeee.

December 1, 2014, 11:31 AM	#81
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	Sounds like the Powder's temp sensitivity is eating your velocity (which is borderline across the divide). What powder/have you chrono'd the hot/cold difference (?) And pressurewise, what dare you load for cold and still shoot in hot? BTW: I find that in cold weather, ammunition that I stick in an inside pocket stabilitizes at a 65-70° temp. For field use w/ a small handful of cartridges at a time, that works really well. Last edited by mehavey; December 1, 2014 at 01:55 PM.

December 2, 2014, 07:35 AM	#86
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Like the 223 Rem, the Swift needs a faster twist for medium weight bullets. It's more important in cold weather. Run your software again but use a 1:12 twist then again with 1:11. The 5.56 NATO first used 1:14 twists for its 50-gr bullets and had the same cold weather problems until 1:12 twists were used. Last edited by Bart B.; December 2, 2014 at 07:44 AM.

December 3, 2014, 01:51 AM	#87
ddestruel Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2013 Posts: 6	interesting my swift with 1:14 and 52gr or 55gr’s is still ok at sub -15 and -20 below. though I’ve had some wild shots at those temps i attributed to me pulling it. usually i shoot varmints at those temps and not paper ...... interesting point i bet a 1:12 barrel would keep her even tighter. next time she’s down at those temps i might have to hit the range with a few rifles. my .204 has always been temperamental below 30 degrees, but the .223’s with 50 gr vmax’s and 1:9 barrels are as consistent if not more so than my .220 swift. when temps get really cold in the winter. she’s still a tack driver but your point is interesting i wrote a lot of that off to various factors, powder, ME and Me again , then omitted never considering the twist relative to temp.... reality is at those temps i call em in to 100-150 yards rarely have i had an issue but now you have me wondering just for curiosities sake Last edited by ddestruel; December 3, 2014 at 12:15 PM.

November 30, 2014, 10:31 PM	#76
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Since this chat is back, I'll respond to wyoredman's question about a 50's Swift. Actually, my first Swift was a 1953 pre-64 Win Model 70. Great rifle, but I sold it and bought that 77V tang safety Swift that I still have and reloaded for just yesterday. Just wish it would stabilize that 64 gr BSB in cold weather.

December 1, 2014, 09:04 AM	#78
Vet66 Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 187	Lemme see, I have a Springfield 1903 re-barreled to .220 Swift, good shooter. Next is my Winchester 70 chambered for 22.250, really a tack driver. and, finally I have a Sako L46 chambered in .222 shoots very well, I like them all but, I give the edge to the 22.250....but that's just me.

December 1, 2014, 09:49 AM	#79
jaysouth Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 787	False argument. Anyone who knows anything about gun, knows that the .225 Winchester beats ANY other poodle shooting caliber.

December 1, 2014, 11:18 AM	#80
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Mehavey, the 64 gr BSB did stabilize at late summer temps. Ballistic data suggested that colder weather would make it slightly less likely to stabilize. So, I waited till colder weather and found out that sure enough it was less stabilized. Still hit the paper, but groups were rather large. The shorter 63 gr Sierra will stabilize. The longer 65 gr Sierra GK won't even hit paper at 100 yards. I have no idea where the 65 grainers went. I really wanted to shoot those 64 gr BSB bullets in the 220.

December 1, 2014, 12:53 PM	#82
mattL46 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2013 Posts: 656	+111@ jaysouth!

December 1, 2014, 01:44 PM	#83
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	There are a bunch of good varmint rounds out there, I have really started to like the 204, but I have been a 22-250 guy for a long time... I have 222 which is nice, tac 20 which is very similar to 204 and I only bought it because it was an absolute steal, all the varmint calibers are awesome in their own way... I am addicted to Cooper rifles, if you want the best varmint guns made, I have to say they sell them, I own a sako and a Blazer and the Coopers are hands down the best, varmint guns made... My next endeavor will be 20 vartarg, 20 ppc, or 20 br, I shot a ppc at the range a while back it was nice and a short bolt throw, Ill probably go with the vartarg in a cooper montana varminter, I have been looking out on gunbroker so I dont have to special order one, but they are not popular calibers...

December 1, 2014, 05:20 PM	#85
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	True, true... In fact I just ran rough stability calc's on the BSB at 3,800fps/14 twist/90°Temp /Sea-level and got a stability factor of 1.04 (marginal) http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/ Then I dropped it to 30° (no change in velocity) and stability went to 0.923 (unstable). .... no practical amout of velocity growth would bring it back up. (Well, a mile/second got me 1.04 again) Live and learn stuff..... (including that fact if you went UP a kilometer, you were back in stable territory even while still freezing)

December 3, 2014, 08:55 AM	#88
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Normally I'd say to not worry about 52 and 55 grainers as to whether or not they stabilize in a 1 in 14 twist 220, but you did say 20 below zero. Brrrrrrr. I will never know how any of my rifles act at 20 below. No sireeeee.