The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 26, 2013, 01:58 AM   #1
deepforks
Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2011
Location: Southwest Idaho
Posts: 89
case sizing wax

so i thought i'd give wax a try since i've never used it before. i don't think i've ever heard a bad review about imperial, but i'm curious how the hornady sizing wax compares to it.

the same, better, worse?
deepforks is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 01:04 PM   #2
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,023
Hornady Unique lube seems to work about as well. At least, I can't really tell a big difference in performance. It's a heck of a lot cheaper. Unlike most reports, I have stuck a couple of extremely tight cases before when using Imperial, so I don't consider it a 100% guarantee of perfect performance. I've never stuck one with Unique, but then I haven't run nearly as many cases with it, so time will tell.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old February 26, 2013, 01:39 PM   #3
rogn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 203
I find that sizing effort with large, expanded, difficult to size cases is noticeably harder with Imperial than many other lubes. Plain old Kiwi Mink oil reduces effort say on 300WSM FL by more than 50%. It also doesnt take much, just a smear. I have been generally underwhelmed with Imperial.
rogn is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 01:49 PM   #4
huntinaz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Location: az
Posts: 1,332
I have only used the Hornady unique wax, but I have been happy with it.
__________________
"When there’s lead in the air, there’s hope in the heart”- Hunter’s Proverb
"Feed me, or feed me to something. I just want to be part of the food chain." -Al Bundy
huntinaz is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 02:13 PM   #5
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 4,415
Have both, use both. Excellent. Imperial is more expensive.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 03:51 PM   #6
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,805
Thousands of 223 and 30-06 with Unique, no stuck cases.

On a side note it seems to be almost identical to the Silicone grease used for rubber drysuit gaskets.
chris in va is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 07:22 PM   #7
jcwit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2007
Location: Upper Indiana
Posts: 609
Unique works very well as does Mink Oil from the shoe dept.
__________________
U.S. Army Veteran
NRA Certified Range Officer
jcwit is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 10:47 PM   #8
deepforks
Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2011
Location: Southwest Idaho
Posts: 89
thanks fellas!
deepforks is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 09:21 AM   #9
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
Extreme sizing, I boxed up a few things then went to help someone size/form cases. I was not in charge meaning I had no control over how and or what was going to be used. He had Dillon in the can and bottle, he had Imperial, meaning? I knew it was going to be a tough secession. There were times I thought the die liked the cases so well it decided to keep them, then there was that part when lowering the ram, seems the neck sizer plug was going to be a permanent part of the case. then there was that part where I normally check to see if the die was making it to the shell holder. The press was an honest to goodness, real, designed cam over press.

Not easy to look good when when overcoming resistance.

Then we started on the 50 BMG cases, different press, what a work out. Again, same lube, same results. Not that anyone would understood method and madness, I adjusted the die to the shell holder then lowered the ram and inserted a 50 cal. case, raised the ram, the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder was .016”, meaning the Ammo Master press flexed .016”.

Something to look forward to? We are going to start on forming cases for a magnum type chamber using 8mm Remington Magnum cases, dies do not exist so I am binging few sets of forming dies to get the cases down to where we can handle them. I offered to bring a no-name lube, a lube that is not registered by reloaders at reloading supply stores.

Not easy for one to look like they know what they are doing when struggling with a press that wants to keep the case or refuses to allow the die to touch the shell holder ‘when .000 (thousandths) count’.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; February 27, 2013 at 09:27 AM. Reason: remove an a between ing and res
F. Guffey is offline  
Old February 27, 2013, 09:41 AM   #10
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
I small base size everything I can get a small base sizing die. This is for improved feed, extraction and interchangeability of ammunition between rifles. I would like my ammunition to be a close to factory dimensions as possible.

Currently I have 223, 308 and 30-06 small base sizing dies.

I found that those spray on and wax lubes will stick a case in a small base die. I tried Hornady and Lee. The best lubes to date are RCBS water soluble, Imperial sizing wax, and Kiwi Mink Oil. I prefer the RCBs water soluble because it washes off in the sink.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 06:16 AM   #11
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,586
Lucas Oil 8 oz. White Lithium Grease

I have tried most. Best by far has been:
Lucas Oil 8 oz. White Lithium Grease
Model # 10533 Store SKU # 934178
$4.58 / EA-Each @ Home Depot

I apply it with a special paper based application pad (folded paper towel). Roll the thick part for a light film. If you can see it, you may have too much on.
__________________
............
Marco Califo is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 09:51 AM   #12
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,023
Lot of guys running STP and Mobil 1 synthetic, too. I like the lithium grease idea. Lots of cheaper ones out there in tubes and tubs, too.

Just be sure to avoid anything with moly in it as it will stay with the case and has low enough coefficient of friction to raise bolt thrust almost 50%, by Varmint Al's simulation results. Avoid Teflon or any other PTFE additive, too.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old February 28, 2013, 10:56 AM   #13
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Just be sure to avoid anything with moly in it as it will stay with the case and has low enough coefficient of friction to raise bolt thrust almost 50%, by Varmint Al's simulation results. Avoid Teflon or any other PTFE additive, too
.


Given that the action is designed to take 100% of the load I would not worry about increased bolt thrust. Any friction between case and chamber is parasitic and just makes it more difficult to extract the case.

If moly keeps cases from stretching, and cases have a shorter fatique life than bolt lugs, moly might be a good thing.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 28, 2013, 12:10 PM   #14
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,023
Most growth in a chamber over time is due to lug setback. It follows that 150% of normal bolt thrust will increase the rate at which that happens. It seems to me to constitute premature wear thats easily avoided.

Take a look at Al's stuff on the .243 and you will see the bolt face thrust changes mostly insignificantly with chamber polishing, even with petroleum-based lubes or grease on the cases. That only gets to a coefficient of friction of about 0.10 at best. And, indeed, that does increase case life by letting the pressure ring thinning spread out over a greater length in the case. But once the coefficient of friction gets really small, then the bolt thrust goes up. He shows a Cf of 0.01 giving that 50% increase. Moly is about 0.02 and hex form boron nitride is 0.01, so that's why I suggest avoiding that kind of lube getting on a case. You can get the increased case life just by polishing the chamber.

I don't know exactly how Teflon will compare in that circumstance, but I remember that when it was tried as a bore treatment in the early 90's it proved to have property changes as the barrel got hot that made its behavior inconsistent and opened groups up, particularly in rapid fire. So I wouldn't want to risk it migrating into the bore, and that's my rationale for naming it as something to avoid.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old February 28, 2013, 04:07 PM   #15
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,586
Good point about residuals

I always tumble to remove the lithium grease and run it several hours for good shine.
__________________
............
Marco Califo is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 08:40 AM   #16
BigV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Akron, OH
Posts: 328
I use home made case lube. It's cheap and works great.
Give it a try...
Home Made Case Lube

Step One -Gather contents -
Liquid Lanolin (100% pure was $7.00 at the local health food store)
Isopropyl Alcohol (at minimum 91% $1.19 at the local drug store - 99% is best couldn't find it)
If you go to an Auto Store ISO HEET is 99% Isopropyl
New or Clean spray bottle (from the "Dollar" store) has ratio markings and ounce markings so it helps


Step Two
Warm the Lanolin in warm tap water (110 to 120 degrees F - NO OPEN FLAMES!)
Do the same for the IPA, this will help in the mixing process.

Step Three
Pour 2 (two) ounces of the warmed Lanolin into the spray bottle

Step Four
Pour 16 (sixteen) ounces of the warmed IPA into the spray bottle giving you an 1:8 ratio
This seem to be the ratio that best mimics Dillon Spray Lube (add more IPA if you feel it is too thick in your dies)

Step Five
Shake until contents becomes homogonized and label the bottle accordingly (so you don't confuse it with CLP or something)

Then proceed to lube cases as needed. I left some room in case I needed to adjust the ratio depending on the dies and how finiky they may be. This Ratio seems to work fine for me. I did about 500 once fired .223 and it was smooth as silk.

Let cases dry for 15 minutes before sizing begins
BigV is offline  
Old March 1, 2013, 06:12 PM   #17
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Most growth in a chamber over time is due to lug setback. It follows that 150% of normal bolt thrust will increase the rate at which that happens. It seems to me to constitute premature wear thats easily avoided

I totally agree with not loading cartridges above SAAMI pressures, so any load 150% over max is way too high.

But, the lugs are sized for 100% loads plus safety factors for manufacturing and fatique lifetime. Case friction is undesirable as it stretches cases and makes extraction difficult. That is why chambers are polished, or rust protected with chrome, so cases won't stick. It is far more important to protect cases as they will break first.

Let me use this analogy, lets say you have a ½ ton pickup. I am going to assume the design life is ten years and 200,000 miles, though it was not that long ago when all vehicles were worn out at 100,000. Lets say you are about to put 1000 lbs of bricks in the back but before you do General Hatcher comes along. He says, “you put 1000 lbs of bricks in the bed you will be adding weight on the axle and reducing the life of the suspension”. Well, he is right, if you don’t put any bricks in the back the axles/bearings will last longer. But the truck was designed to carry 1000 lbs for ten years and 200,000 miles, so is the warning prudent or just chicken little syndrome?

The actual problem that the Army had in 1920-21 was single heat treat receivers. The warnings not to lubricate cases made sense when 67% or the rifles on the line were unsafe at any load, and they broke with dry cases and dry chambers.

One of these days I will go into greater detail on the Army coverup of 1921, based on new information gained by reviewing the American Rifleman magazines of the era.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 06:46 AM   #18
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,582
Here's how I mix mine, I go to my LGS and pick up an RCBS case lube pad with neck brush and caselube, fellas why are we always looking to reinvent something that simply works everytime, it's easy to use and no stuck cases.
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.
hooligan1 is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 08:17 AM   #19
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,137
Quote:
fellas why are we always looking to reinvent something that simply works everytime, it's easy to use and no stuck cases.
For several reasons. First off, handloaders by nature are tinkerers. We generally love to tinker with stuff, think about how stuff works, and see if we can do a better job than the factory can do.

Next, I've become convinced that the handloading lube industry is such a tiny portion of the general lube industry that no one formulates specific lubes for us; therefore, the lubes we use, from Alox to gun oil, are all formulations made for another application and simply repackaged with a gunny-label and sold to us at a premium price. Most (if not all) of that stuff is available in 55 gallon drums and sold on the industrial market.

Now, I will freely and plainly admit that most of us started with gunny-labeled lubes. We all know about RemOil and we all know about Hoppe's #9, and many of us have used an RCBS lube pad. They work great, they work fine, and millions of rounds of ammo have been loaded with them. I don't look down on those folks that use them, indeed, I've bought them myself. However, I've come to the conclusion that the same product exists on the general lube market for a whole lot less than what I pay for a 2 oz tube of case lube.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 08:37 AM   #20
hodaka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2006
Location: South Texas
Posts: 2,010
Nice answer Dennis and I agree.

User of Mobil 1, Ed's Red and olive oil, lanolin, Kiwi Mink oil and isopropyl in various mixes.
hodaka is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 03:51 PM   #21
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,582
PawPaw that kit retails for 19.00, so that case lube can't be over 5.00 or 6.00 bucks (when bought with the kit), And I've loaded thousands of cases with one bottle, so it's not worth me buying two or three different products and making a bunch of lube to sit on my bench. RCBS case lube wont spill if you drop it, and don't take much space if you ain't got it.
It's not that I want everybody to realize it's best, it's that I want everybody to realize there's no need for anything else.
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.
hooligan1 is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 04:06 PM   #22
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area)
Posts: 2,586
Quote:
I want everybody to realize there's no need for anything else.
Personal opinions like that are worth nearly as much as free advice.
__________________
............
Marco Califo is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 04:11 PM   #23
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,582
Thanks Marco, I practice a lot when I'm alone!
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.
hooligan1 is offline  
Old March 2, 2013, 05:58 PM   #24
deepforks
Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2011
Location: Southwest Idaho
Posts: 89
so i tried some of my obenauf's heavy duty leather preservative and it seemed to work quite well. has anyone else tried it? it's a beeswax/propolis base with oils. says it contains no harmful silicones, petroleums, solvents, or neatsfoot. works wonders on my boots
deepforks is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.05827 seconds with 8 queries