The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting > Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 25, 2016, 09:29 AM   #1
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
Annealing Bullet Cast

Annealing cast lead bullets in such a manor so's to create a bullet nose with less BHN than its body.
Anyone else heard of this technique?
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old November 25, 2016, 10:04 AM   #2
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
Annealing cast lead bullets in such a manor so's to create a bullet nose with less BHN than its body. Anyone else heard of this technique?
I doubt if it is possible. Assuming that a person harded a bullet by heat treat (bake and then quench), and then sought to soften the nose of the bullet by heating with some kind of a torch, the heat would conduct down the bullet and the whole bullet would be softened. If he applied heat to the nose (to anneal), and then quenched, the nose would become hard again...nothing gained.
There were a set of molds from Lyman at one time where a nose of a bullet could be cast using soft lead and the body of the bullet could be cast using a hard alloy. The two pieces would then be epoxied together. That was in .44 if I remember correctly.
dahermit is offline  
Old November 25, 2016, 10:34 AM   #3
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
A fellow up here in MN commented (elsewhere) he accomplished the technique in his doing. I wrote him earlier this AM asking just how he goes about it.
I've never had any luck in figuring that 20 th century old timers technique out. All I've ever witnessed was watching a few of my bullets collapse one after the other due to their overheating.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old November 25, 2016, 11:08 AM   #4
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
This isn't a direct answer to annealing, but I think it is applicable.

Some folks add a small amount of copper to their hard cast mix to add toughness, either to push the velocity a little more or allow the bullet to mushroom without shattering. This is supposed to work best with high antimony alloys.

Jimro
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
Jimro is offline  
Old November 25, 2016, 06:34 PM   #5
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
Thinking about it, if I were to attempt to anneal the nose of a cast lead bullet that had been heat treated, while allowing the body of the bullet to remain hard, I would choose a bore riding bullet with a long nose. I would then coat the body of the bullet with heat-stop paste and apply some 400 degree temperature indicating crayon to the nose of the bullets. I would heat the nose with a propane torch until the crayon melted and then quence. Or, I would decide that it was way too much fooling around and just give up on the whole idea and hope that someone else had the same idea and would publish his findings...like the guys who pioneered powder coating for cast bullets. They do the work and if it works, I do the copying.
dahermit is offline  
Old November 25, 2016, 08:22 PM   #6
Ronic
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2013
Posts: 12
What about having two pots going, one soft lead and another hard. Fill half full with soft then top off with hard. I don't know if that would work or cause a fault line in the bullet that would separate upon firing.
Ronic is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 12:07 AM   #7
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
No mention of water dropped during casting. But it was commented his co/ww bullets base were barely sitting in a tray of water and the nose of each were heated with a propane torch in such a way as to not scorch in the torches most direct heat. I'm wondering if Tempilaq 450 would serve the purpose for annealing a lead alloy such as co/ww is ?
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 12:24 AM   #8
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
I never found water dropping to do as well at hardening as baking in an oven and then quenching in water.
His method for annealing may just work with the bases sitting in water...I just did not think of that. However, I wonder if the noses so annealed would distort at hunting rifle velocities, becoming a virtual rifle "wadcutter". That is one of the issues with cast lead rifle bullets for hunting. Too soft and they distort destroying accuracy...too hard and they do not expand well. I suspect that if the noses were softened, there would be problems with accuracy due to distortion. I experimented with very soft cast bullets in a .44 Magnum in my misspent youth. I found that very soft bullets would turn virtually into wadcutters when I attempted to fire them at normal .44 Mag. velocities...my recovered Keith type bullets were showing rifling marks on the noses of the bullets where they should not have been making contact with the bore at all.
dahermit is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 08:32 AM   #9
riverratt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2014
Posts: 314
Just HT as normal give them time to "cure" at that point you shouldn't be able to dig your thumbnail into them. Set the bullets nose up in a pan of water filled to wherever you want your soft nose to start and heat the nose with a propane torch. Then allow them to cool.

I do just this with the bullets I use in my ML. It gives me a bullet that will expand on a rib shot and hold together to drive through a shoulder if need be.
riverratt is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 08:50 AM   #10
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
I do just this with the bullets I use in my ML.
What is the point...muzzle loaders have traditionally just used pure lead (soft lead). Why are you using heat treatable lead in a muzzle loader? What I think the original poster was talking about was modern bottleneck cartridges.
dahermit is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 09:37 AM   #11
riverratt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2014
Posts: 314
The bullets I use are a ranch dog clone for a .44 mag. I run them at mag velocity (as in 150gr equivalent) out of my Omega ML with a sabot. If I leave the base to soft the bullet expands in the bore giving the bullet 4 "wings" where there are gaps in the sabot. This greatly affected longer range accuracy. When I did get a shot at a deer the bullet pancaked out shedding mose of its weight and not passing through making for a difficult tracking job in the thick stuff I shot her in. By the time I hardened the bullet to my guns likings the nose would shear off on impact. So I softened the alloy up a bit and HT the base and driving bands. Then anealed the nose.

I did run these same bullets out of my .44 mags with traditional lube with great results but now I PC everything so they're just air cooled. I also gave a couple hundred to a friend of mine that shot them in his 444.
riverratt is offline  
Old November 26, 2016, 11:14 AM   #12
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
Still think'in a low temp paint like Tempilaq 450 would work to prevent over heating since co/ww is said to get slushy at 463 degree's. Huh~~ good winter experiment on the kitchen table I'm thinking. Altoids can blow torch a bottle of Tempilaq 450 and the wife's favorite wooden cutting board.

.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old December 6, 2016, 10:38 AM   #13
reloader28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2009
Location: nw wyoming
Posts: 1,061
Sure, its a piece of cake. I use 50/50/2% alloy in most of my hunting bullets and then either a medium temp oven heat treat or water drop for a harder base.
Then (mostly for the .30 calibers) if I want to soften the nose back up for better expansion, I sit it in a pan of water about half way up the bullet and lightly put a torch on the nose for just a couple seconds. The nose will start to get shiny and thats enough. Any longer and you will melt it. You have to practise on a few to get it right, but it works good and has excellent performance on deer
reloader28 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08376 seconds with 10 queries