Armed Citizen: Oklahoma Pharmacist Defends Employees from Robbers - Page 9

bababooey32 · May 28, 2009, 11:19 AM

Perhaps this is a better question in Legal, but I found it curious that the prosecutor filed Murder 1 charges - Premeditated Murder. Certainly the fact that the BG tried to rob the "suspect" in his own store with a weapon would present mitigating circumstances to a Murder 1 charge? Given other statements from the prospecutor, it seems he is a bit sympathetic to Ersland - why go to Murder 1?

Playboypenguin · May 28, 2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

His lawyer says that his defense is the "Make My Day" law. He had a gun in face and he is justified his "eliminating the threat". Direct Quote from defense attorney: "It's the price you pay when you come into a pharmacy with a gun and

And that might work...for the first shot. It is not going to even come close to working as far as defending his action after re-entering the building.

PS: It is pretty clear to me on the tape that the perp on the floor made no movements. You can read that in the shooters reactions. He never made any noticeable change in his stance, demeanor, or gate. Plus, he walked right up to the perp. You would not do that if he was posing a threat. That would be completely counter to your natural instinctual reaction to danger.

David Armstrong · May 28, 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

So does anybody know if it might be possible to show that the head wound would have been fatal and the other shots were non-consequential? Perhaps the charge would be reduced.

There is some variation of this in different jurisdictions, but basically the question is causation. What caused the actual death? Doesn't matter if the head wound would have been fatal later on if the follow-up shots were the immediate cause of death.

pax · May 28, 2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Given other statements from the prospecutor, it seems he is a bit sympathetic to Ersland - why go to Murder 1?

Premeditation doesn't have to happen days or weeks in advance of the act. It can happen mere moments in advance -- for instance, if a person were to calmly walk into another room, retrieve and load a firearm, and then walk over to the victim and shoot him.

In this case, I'd say what drove the choice for Murder 1 was the fact that Ersland calmly walked past the downed criminal two different times, walked over to the drawer where the second weapon was stored, retrieved it, and walked back over to fire more shots. The whole series of actions indicates premeditation, not simply reacting in the heat of the moment -- at least, that's the reasoning I'd use if I were the prosecutor. Perhaps, though, he chose to charge the higher offense in hopes of getting a guilty plea to something less, rather than a trial.

pax

pax · May 28, 2009, 11:43 AM

Here's another interesting link from the DA:

http://newsok.com/self-defense-allow...rticle/3373148

Quote:

Even though he decided to charge a pharmacist with murder for killing a would-be robber, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said he supports people’s right to defend themselves as allowed by state law.

"I do not want the charging of Jerome Ersland with first-degree murder to have a chilling effect on any person legitimately in a position to defend themselves from an assailant,” Prater said Wednesday in a news conference.

He said the decision should not cause anyone to hesitate to use appropriate force if faced by the "imminent threat of serious injury or death from another person.”...

More at the link!

pax

hogdogs · May 28, 2009, 11:55 AM

That fairly high def in store video is some damning evidence! One less criminal punk on the street but it looks like the shooter was way off base and beyond the scope of his rights to self defense...
Brent

bababooey32 · May 28, 2009, 11:56 AM

This is all very fascinating and instructive and confusing and frustrating. I'm sorry that one life was lost and another ruined in order to provide this...but life lessons are often best learned through the errors/follies/successes of others.

Double Naught Spy · May 28, 2009, 11:57 AM

Right Pax, the video I posted on the previous page has the DA discussing the case and going on and on about the 2nd Amendment and what is and is not justified in a shooting. He seems to go out of his way to explain the need for prosecution in this case and how this prosecution should in no way affect others in their right to use guns for self defense. He argues the first shot (head shot) was completely justified and had Ersland stopped there, there would be no problem, but that shooting the downed suspect was not self defense shooting and hence his decision to prosecute.

He seems to be quite well spoken.

OuTcAsT · May 28, 2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Even though he decided to charge a pharmacist with murder for killing a would-be robber, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said he supports people’s right to defend themselves as allowed by state law.

"I do not want the charging of Jerome Ersland with first-degree murder to have a chilling effect on any person legitimately in a position to defend themselves from an assailant,” Prater said Wednesday in a news conference.

He said the decision should not cause anyone to hesitate to use appropriate force if faced by the "imminent threat of serious injury or death from another person.”...

Looks like you could not ask for a more reasonable or gun-friendly DA, particularly when he advocated that Ersland should be able to remain armed while out on bail.
The defense is gonna have a hell of a time finding any bias against self defense from the prosecution.

csmsss · May 28, 2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Perhaps, though, he chose to charge the higher offense in hopes of getting a guilty plea to something less, rather than a trial.

This is my guess. The circumstances of this case may or may not technically support a Murder 1 charge and possible conviction; however, I would be extremely surprised to see this go to trial and an actual conviction on murder in the first degree result.

I think the prosecutor went for the big charge right away to demonstrate to the defense how seriously they take this crime and to try to get the defense to quickly agree to a plea deal (manslaughter would be my guess).

spacemanspiff · May 28, 2009, 12:09 PM

We've had debates here in the past about the mindset of 'Shoot to stop' vs. 'Shoot to kill'.

The 'Shoot to kill' advocates insist that it is the same thing as 'Shoot to stop', while the 'Shoot to stop' crowd claims the opposite, they 'Shoot until the threat is stopped'.

When we make that decision to carry a gun, we have, if we are responsible mature individuals that is, also decided that we are willing to do violent things to preserve our life or that of others.
Ersland did commit a violent act in defense.
Then he crossed the line.

I wonder if asked before this incident, what Ersland would have said his mindset was? 'Shoot to kill'? 'Shoot to stop'? 'Shoot to slidelock'?

Wildalaska · May 28, 2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

His lawyer says that his defense is the "Make My Day" law. He had a gun in face and he is justified his "eliminating the threat". Direct Quote from defense attorney: "It's the price you pay when you come into a pharmacy with a gun

His lawyer should shut up if he can't do better than that.

WildquietisbetterAlaska ™

pax · May 28, 2009, 12:24 PM

DNS ~

Yep. Darn good video! (For those who missed it earlier: http://www.news9.com/Global/category...clipId=3804065)

Quote from the DA in response to one of the questions from a reporter: "Evidence at the scene indicates that this young man was not moving [at the time the final shots were fired]." People who say dead men tell no tales are incorrect...

pax

KingEdward · May 28, 2009, 12:24 PM

many things to consider.

it is hard to compare a store scene to a home but reading all this and seeing the charge, I can't help but wonder what some of us would do if this were in the home (intruder hit and down and no longer a threat).

Logic would tell me that I should find or make some cover and be ready to defend against a continued threat until authorities arrived.

Logic would also tell me that if I stand over the fallen and unload the rest of my revolver, there will be grave questions.

Could Mr. pharmicist have moved across the store and taken cover
and been in defensive position in case of continued threat while waiting for authorities?

That might have saved him a lot of time and money.

But I wasn't there. He obviously shot to kill.

hogdogs · May 28, 2009, 12:29 PM

When one considers the illegal act of the coup d gras shot on a downed BG need to realize the slug will likely be in the floor or ricochet back into the body but either way forensic evidence will prove the shot was from close range, from above, on a downed threat.
Brent

wun_8_seven · May 28, 2009, 12:32 PM

WildAlaska, his attorney is very good and well respected'

the DA argued heatedly with the judge at the prelim today. the judge ordered Mr ersland to turn in all his guns, The DA argued the although he was charged he has not been convicted and he should still be afforded the right to defend himself.

Kyo · May 28, 2009, 01:27 PM

"16 year old child" my butt

Also, when animals defend, and dominance is made the predator leaves, and if he doesn't he gets killed. The animal knows when the other is knocked out, and it will keep going until its dead.

bababooey32 · May 28, 2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

...it will keep going until its dead

I'd like to think we'eve evolved a bit compared to wild dogs or meerkats. Animals often urinate on their own food too.........You?

hogdogs · May 28, 2009, 01:38 PM

Kyo, Name a wild animal that, in the wild, will face a trial with lawyers stating law in front of a judge and fellow wild animals.... Can't do it can you? Not even with smart animals such as primates or porpoises...
Brent

OuTcAsT · May 28, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

His lawyer should shut up if he can't do better than that.

That was my take as well WA, would not surprise me to see him play the "inadequate counsel" card at some point if he is convicted.

Quote:

WildAlaska, his attorney is very good and well respected'

He may be well respected, but he's hanging his hat on one hell of a weak position.

Wildalaska · May 28, 2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Also, when animals defend, and dominance is made the predator leaves, and if he doesn't he gets killed. The animal knows when the other is knocked out, and it will keep going until its dead.

Give the chest thumping a rest, it looks even sillier now than it did when you first started it

Quote:

WildAlaska, his attorney is very good and well respected'

No, he needs to tone it down...amy I suggest:

"Ladies and gentlemen, we know the pressure that the DA is under from some members of the community to resolve this tragedy at the expense of my client. My client, a law abiding and respected veteran, did not precipitate these tragic events, rather, he was a victim forced into this situation by the violent and criminal acts of the decedant. We look forward to putting the District Attorney to his proof at trial and shall have no further statement at this time"

WildjustkeeprepeatingthatAlaska ™

hogdogs · May 28, 2009, 02:25 PM

At what point should your lawyer stop answering questions and demand an attorney?

Brent

Glenn E. Meyer · May 28, 2009, 02:35 PM

Hey - I'm on TV!

Maybe the defense attorney wants to pollute the jury pool by eliciting Rambos for the jury and then the DA will make a deal. My strategy is based on watching Law and Order.

spacemanspiff · May 28, 2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

At what point should your lawyer stop answering questions and demand an attorney?

Heh, reminds me of an old Pinky and the Brain cartoon, Brain went to work at a reinsurance reinsurance company.

"We insure insurance companies who insure insurance companies."
"Hows business?"
"Luu-crative!"

Van55 · May 28, 2009, 03:02 PM

Well, I am certainly glad I searched for "pharmacist" before starting a thread on this shooting.

WildAlaska's initial caution to wait for the facts before extolling the pharmacist as a hero has been vindicated, in my opinion. From the security video this looks like a bad shoot, indeed. However, it is not clear from the video (to me) what exactly the bad guy was doing on the floor when the pharmacist emptied the magazine into him.

May 28, 2009, 11:19 AM	#201
bababooey32 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 161	Murder 1 Perhaps this is a better question in Legal, but I found it curious that the prosecutor filed Murder 1 charges - Premeditated Murder. Certainly the fact that the BG tried to rob the "suspect" in his own store with a weapon would present mitigating circumstances to a Murder 1 charge? Given other statements from the prospecutor, it seems he is a bit sympathetic to Ersland - why go to Murder 1?

May 28, 2009, 11:57 AM	#208
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Right Pax, the video I posted on the previous page has the DA discussing the case and going on and on about the 2nd Amendment and what is and is not justified in a shooting. He seems to go out of his way to explain the need for prosecution in this case and how this prosecution should in no way affect others in their right to use guns for self defense. He argues the first shot (head shot) was completely justified and had Ersland stopped there, there would be no problem, but that shooting the downed suspect was not self defense shooting and hence his decision to prosecute. He seems to be quite well spoken. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

May 28, 2009, 12:09 PM	#211
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	We've had debates here in the past about the mindset of 'Shoot to stop' vs. 'Shoot to kill'. The 'Shoot to kill' advocates insist that it is the same thing as 'Shoot to stop', while the 'Shoot to stop' crowd claims the opposite, they 'Shoot until the threat is stopped'. When we make that decision to carry a gun, we have, if we are responsible mature individuals that is, also decided that we are willing to do violent things to preserve our life or that of others. Ersland did commit a violent act in defense. Then he crossed the line. I wonder if asked before this incident, what Ersland would have said his mindset was? 'Shoot to kill'? 'Shoot to stop'? 'Shoot to slidelock'? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

May 28, 2009, 12:24 PM	#213
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	DNS ~ Yep. Darn good video! (For those who missed it earlier: http://www.news9.com/Global/category...clipId=3804065) Quote from the DA in response to one of the questions from a reporter: "Evidence at the scene indicates that this young man was not moving [at the time the final shots were fired]." People who say dead men tell no tales are incorrect... pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

May 28, 2009, 02:35 PM	#223
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Hey - I'm on TV! Maybe the defense attorney wants to pollute the jury pool by eliciting Rambos for the jury and then the DA will make a deal. My strategy is based on watching Law and Order. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

May 28, 2009, 11:55 AM	#206
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	That fairly high def in store video is some damning evidence! One less criminal punk on the street but it looks like the shooter was way off base and beyond the scope of his rights to self defense... Brent

May 28, 2009, 11:56 AM	#207
bababooey32 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 161	This is all very fascinating and instructive and confusing and frustrating. I'm sorry that one life was lost and another ruined in order to provide this...but life lessons are often best learned through the errors/follies/successes of others.

May 28, 2009, 12:24 PM	#214
KingEdward Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2009 Location: The Volunteer State Posts: 439	many things to consider. it is hard to compare a store scene to a home but reading all this and seeing the charge, I can't help but wonder what some of us would do if this were in the home (intruder hit and down and no longer a threat). Logic would tell me that I should find or make some cover and be ready to defend against a continued threat until authorities arrived. Logic would also tell me that if I stand over the fallen and unload the rest of my revolver, there will be grave questions. Could Mr. pharmicist have moved across the store and taken cover and been in defensive position in case of continued threat while waiting for authorities? That might have saved him a lot of time and money. But I wasn't there. He obviously shot to kill.

May 28, 2009, 12:29 PM	#215
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	When one considers the illegal act of the coup d gras shot on a downed BG need to realize the slug will likely be in the floor or ricochet back into the body but either way forensic evidence will prove the shot was from close range, from above, on a downed threat. Brent

May 28, 2009, 12:32 PM	#216
wun_8_seven Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2002 Posts: 195	WildAlaska, his attorney is very good and well respected' the DA argued heatedly with the judge at the prelim today. the judge ordered Mr ersland to turn in all his guns, The DA argued the although he was charged he has not been convicted and he should still be afforded the right to defend himself.

May 28, 2009, 01:27 PM	#217
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	"16 year old child" my butt Also, when animals defend, and dominance is made the predator leaves, and if he doesn't he gets killed. The animal knows when the other is knocked out, and it will keep going until its dead.

May 28, 2009, 01:38 PM	#219
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Kyo, Name a wild animal that, in the wild, will face a trial with lawyers stating law in front of a judge and fellow wild animals.... Can't do it can you? Not even with smart animals such as primates or porpoises... Brent

May 28, 2009, 02:25 PM	#222
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	At what point should your lawyer stop answering questions and demand an attorney? Brent

May 28, 2009, 03:02 PM	#225
Van55 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2008 Posts: 392	Well, I am certainly glad I searched for "pharmacist" before starting a thread on this shooting. WildAlaska's initial caution to wait for the facts before extolling the pharmacist as a hero has been vindicated, in my opinion. From the security video this looks like a bad shoot, indeed. However, it is not clear from the video (to me) what exactly the bad guy was doing on the floor when the pharmacist emptied the magazine into him.