|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 28, 2013, 12:36 AM | #1 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: The worst Lancaster in the U.S.
Posts: 119
|
.38spc loaded to .357mag levels
This is hard to explain when I'm typing it out so bear with me.
Is it unsafe to load .38 Specials to .357MAG powder levels using IMR 700-X? Hodgdon.com has a generic 125g cast LRNFP with 700-X for the .38spc Quote:
Quote:
I've worked up a load for .357 that was great shooting and didn't show any pressure signs and was very accurate. 5.2grains with a COL of ~1.575(it was seated at the cannelure). Would it be unsafe to work up a load for 38 Specials that went above the published max since there would still be a lot of empty space above the powder and it's in a rifle that can handle .357 MAG pressures?
__________________
"Lube the hell out of your Llama. Run it wet and it should be a decent pistol." Last edited by BrokenBottles; May 28, 2013 at 12:36 AM. Reason: title issues |
||
May 28, 2013, 12:51 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
There is a classic "almost magnum" load using 2400 and either 158 or 173 grain SWC's and .38 Special brass. You'll have to look it up yourself.
If you put a .357 Magnum load of powder in a .38 Special case, the pressure goes way up because the .38 Special is shorter. There's also a risk that the high pressure ammo will end up in somebody's cheap RG .38 revolver and blow it to bits.
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth Last edited by zxcvbob; May 28, 2013 at 09:00 AM. |
May 28, 2013, 12:53 AM | #3 |
Member
Join Date: July 1, 2010
Posts: 44
|
Yes its unsafe if for no other reason than some of those rounds could end up in a regular 38 special and create a hazardous situation.
Another reason is the pressures will be higher in the 38 case because of reduced capacity, meaning what you load in a 357 case safely can be unsafe just because of the diminished case capacity. Almost no load will fill up to capacity a 38special case. It was originally designed for black powder. It is a bad idea on many levels so stick with the 357 cases, but big cudos to you for asking first. whup, beat me Bob! Woulda been easier to type +1 on my phone. |
May 28, 2013, 12:57 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: The worst Lancaster in the U.S.
Posts: 119
|
awesome. Thank you very much guys. Sure saved me a lot of time, money and maybe fingers.
__________________
"Lube the hell out of your Llama. Run it wet and it should be a decent pistol." |
May 28, 2013, 08:13 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
No!!!!!!!!!!!
700X is on the 'fast' end of my numerous burn-rate charts.
Just sayin'
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
May 28, 2013, 09:21 AM | #6 | |
Junior member
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
|
Quote:
|
|
May 28, 2013, 09:35 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,896
|
Quote:
Depending on the powder, "extra space above the powder" does not equate to safe room for more powder. Fast-burning pistol powders do their stuff with a lot of extra space -- and they need it to keep pressures down. Could you put a 357 load in a 38Special case by seating the bullet further out to create 357 case volume? Yes.... BUT you'd better know exactly what you're doing and you'd still run the risk of someone (maybe not you) putting that cartridge in their J-Frame Airweight 38. Pick up some 357 cases for 357 loads and call it a day. |
|
May 28, 2013, 09:57 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,543
|
As said, 700X is a fast powder, not slow.
You will note that they stop at 21,800 psi in .357 magnum even though the SAAMI maximum is 35,000. This indicates to me that 700X pressures are likely to get unpredictably high above 5.5 grains of powder even in magnum brass. Don't do it. You can do some interesting overloads with actual slow burning powders in .38 special, but I think it takes more research than you will get one question at a time on the internet. |
May 28, 2013, 10:14 AM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
Quote:
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth |
|
May 31, 2013, 06:59 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
think Skeeter
psssst, 2400.......
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
May 31, 2013, 07:47 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: AR
Posts: 1,401
|
May 28, 2013 12:53 AM
aiming fluid Yes its unsafe if for no other reason than some of those rounds could end up in a regular 38 special and create a hazardous situation. Another reason is the pressures will be higher in the 38 case because of reduced capacity, meaning what you load in a 357 case safely can be unsafe just because of the diminished case capacity. Almost no load will fill up to capacity a 38special case. It was originally designed for black powder. It is a bad idea on many levels so stick with the 357 cases, but big cudos to you for asking first. whup, beat me Bob! Woulda been easier to type +1 on my phone. May 28, 2013 12:51 AM ============================================================= +1 |
May 31, 2013, 07:48 AM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,461
|
Quote:
|
|
May 31, 2013, 08:48 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Clay, AL
Posts: 223
|
Why not look up .38 Spl + P Data? I forget which manuals I ran across +P data, I know its out there.
|
May 31, 2013, 09:52 AM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Quote:
My thoughts exactly. Get data for +P and use a +P suitable powder (not 700X), and work up from there. There is a lot of performance overlap between light .357 loads and heavier .38's. |
|
June 2, 2013, 12:57 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 293
|
I suggest you pick up a copy of Lyman's 49th Edition Reloading Manual. It has a nice collection of data for .38 Spec. and .38 Spec. +P for most jacketed hollow points and a number of cast bullets. I particularly like their +P data for the 110 gr JHP bullets. Many years ago I had a Ruger Speed Six chambered for .38 Special, which for all practical purposes was a rugged .357 Magnum revolver with a cylinder chambered for .38 Special. It handled .38 Special +P loads effortlessly. I did push the envelope a bit with the 110 gr JHP bullets and HS-6 powder and was able to push the 110 gr bullet over 1200 fps out of the 2 3/4 inch barrel. I wish I would have kept that revolver, it was nice. I still have a few of those old handloads and have no qualms about shooting them in my SP101 .357 Mag. They were only about 3% over the maximum +P loads listed in the Lyman manual. But everyone needs to use caution and start low and work up slow. Each gun is different and not all primers or powders are exactly the same either.
__________________
NRA Endowment Member |
June 2, 2013, 07:35 AM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 10, 2010
Posts: 166
|
Maybe pressure ratings of the case itself should also be considered.
__________________
live and let live |
June 2, 2013, 07:58 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 941
|
Seems to me it would be better to invest in some .357 brass and only load the .38 Spcl brass with .38 Spcl loads. I can see mucho trouble in your thoughts, but you obviously are not stupid since you are suspiscious of your idea and smart enough to seek advice.
__________________
Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum |
June 2, 2013, 08:11 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,896
|
I agree w/ investing in the 357 cases -- if for no other reasons than it takes the guesswork out, and removes even the faintest possibility of using high-pressure loads in a low-pressure gun.
-- BUT -- Case strength (38Special vs 357) is not the issue in a revolver. Both cartridges are fully supported all the way back/past the web to the rim itself. Pressure capacity is therefore determined by the steel cylinder wall, not the brass case wall. (Might get interesting in a lever-action rifle, though, where some small portion of the web might be unsupported and/or the chamber/head area given some slight extra clearance to ensure reliable feeding. Below is a pic of my heavy-load 45 Colt cases used in a Marlin. My 357s exhibit the same in a `92Win. I just two-stage size them both and go on....) Last edited by mehavey; June 2, 2013 at 08:19 AM. |
June 2, 2013, 08:17 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
challenged
To rephrase:
For many years folks have been loading 38 Special cases with 2400 and 158--170g LSWCs for high performance ammo shot from 357 Magnum-chambered guns. 38 Special-chambered gun, too (those with long enough cylinders ).
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
June 2, 2013, 02:01 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 2, 2011
Posts: 177
|
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have asked this same question in the past, and I've done a lot of research into this issue. To be clear, a given 357 Magnum powder load should produce higher pressures in the 38 Special case compared to a 357 Magnum case due to the smaller case capacity of the 38 Special brass. Having said that, if you reduce any given 357 Magnum load by 10% you should be good to go in 38 Special brass IF AND ONLY IF YOU SHOOT THE CARTRIDGES IN A 357 MAGNUM FIREARM. Obviously, you need to mark the containers with the ammo clearly so that the cartridges do not get loaded into a firearm that is not rated for 357 Magnum. It should go without saying that if you know that you are not the kind of person who makes darn sure he/she knows what he/she is doing when loading a firearm (i.e., what ammo are you using, where did it come from, what does it say on the ziplock bags or boxes in which the ammo is living, etc) then you probably are not safe enough to be doing this. If you shoot reloads that others have made, "because you trust the guy", etc, then you are probably not safe enough to do this. If you give YOUR reloads to others to shoot in their firearms, then you are probably not safe enough to do this. If your "heirs" or "friends" or "family members" who get your stuff when you die are not smart enough to follow some pretty simple safety rules (i.e., never shoot another guy's reloads, etc) then I guess you better be worried and maybe not do this. I can tell you that I personally have got way too many THOUSANDS of 38 Special once-fired brass to NOT do this. I'm planning to load 38 cases to about 15% less than a mid-range 357 powder charge and use them in a Winchester 94AE 357 lever rifle. I have the press set up right now for 9 mm and when I've got my allotment of those cartridges done, I will switch the press over to 357/38 and work on this. I'll report back about it, probably in late June if I can get the process going. [More specifically, what I am trying to accomplish is to get the rifle sighted in at 100 yards with a load using 357 Magnum cases, then find a load of powder in a 38 case that allows the rifle to be "already sighted in" at 50 yards. With factory ammo, when sighted in a 100 yards with 357 Mag ammo, the 38's shoot low at 50 yards. So, I need a load in a 38 case, probably somewhere between 38 +P+ and 38 +P++, or something like that, to raise that point of impact at 50 yards. We'll see how it works out.] Last edited by valleyforge.1777; June 2, 2013 at 02:10 PM. |
June 2, 2013, 02:41 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
|
Quote:
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth |
|
June 3, 2013, 06:44 PM | #22 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 19, 2013
Posts: 4
|
I just don't like the idea myself. Shooting those rounds in a older, weaker .38 could really make a mess for the shooter.
But, I may be guilty of not following my own advice since I load .45 Colt to some pretty crazy loadings for a Ruger BH Bisley. I'd hate to see one of those being shot in an old model Colt. I clearly mark boxes to only use in the Ruger BH, but I could see an heir or maybe an auction buyer after I'm gone not heading the warning. Wow, something to think about. |
June 3, 2013, 10:41 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 16, 2005
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 1,197
|
It is called a 38-44 cartridge.
|
June 3, 2013, 11:30 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 16, 2010
Location: The worst Lancaster in the U.S.
Posts: 119
|
Wow, thank you all. There's a lot of info in here.
I actually load mainly .357(about 90%) I have like 150 .38special cases so it's not an issue of feeling like I should only load it. I was honestly just wondering how safe it would be. I've seen the +P load for .38special with 700X and a SJHP and it's only 4.4grains so going to 5 would be way higher than I'm comfortable shooting. I need to stop listening and reading this old(well not too old since he's only twice my age) reloader's stuff, he/it keeps giving me the wrong information. I got the info about the 700X being slow from one of his books I don't let anyone shoot my reloads, no matter how many times I check the load and the data and COAL. It comes down to why I never point my gun at anything I don't intend to destroy and I don't put my finger on the trigger until I know what I'm going to hit and what's behind it, even with a "safety flag" in the chamber. This idea didn't stem from wanting to shooting the hardest .38special round from my rifle just trying to further what little knowledge I have on the subject of reloading so I'm even more thankful you guys didn't tear into me.
__________________
"Lube the hell out of your Llama. Run it wet and it should be a decent pistol." |
|
|