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June 10, 2010, 10:13 AM | #1 |
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Is it justified to shoot someone who is throwing rocks at you?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06...-near-el-paso/
Ultimately, I believe the border patrol agents will be found to have used justified force, but lets imagine another scenario. Lets say I was a rancher or a civilian hiking along the Mexican border when a band of illegal immigrants starts throwing rocks at me. Then I pull out my rifle and start shooting. Would that be justified? As I see it, you have to take other actions before you can use deadly force such as retreating. In this case, the border patrol patrol agent could have retreated. Was he detaining a ruthless killer? I think he was just detaining some vagrant border crossers just looking to get into America. As I understand it, there is a long ways between the border and populated areas. Why couldnt the agent simply withdraw, observe at a distance and proceed to detain the suspects when more backup arrived? I dont see where its reasonable to fire upon a crowd of rock throwers if you have the option to retreat. I know a rock can hit you in the head, but you can dodge and weave. You can see the rocks coming and can bust into a strong run to get out of the way... |
June 10, 2010, 10:30 AM | #2 | |
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I can tell you've never had anyone seriously trying to hit you with rocks.
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This whole thing really reminds me of a childhood incident where on a hot, lazy, summer day my cousin was baiting/teasing a bull on the other side of the fence. My Uncle came out and yelled at him to leave the bull alone before he was sorry. My cousin turned to reply and the instant his attention was off that bull it charged the fence, catching my cousin's hand on the top rail and breaking three fingers. He's lucky it was a strong fence or that bull would have done a whole lot worse to him. I guess I figure if you don't want the horns then don't throw rocks at the bull.
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"The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on" Last edited by ZeSpectre; June 10, 2010 at 10:36 AM. |
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June 10, 2010, 10:43 AM | #3 |
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I do believe that a group of individuals throwing rocks at you can cause serious bodily harm and even death. If you are in a situation where people are trying to cause serious bodily harm to you and the danger is readily apparent then you are justified in using lethal force.
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June 10, 2010, 10:45 AM | #4 |
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Justified to shoot?
YOU BET! A rock, bottle, or similar item can and will kill.
I have been the target of inner city (diversity in action) youths' throwing chunks of blacktop off a three story building in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio in 1998. The targets were "white people" visiting the local diner for a night out. My date at the time was grazed as I covered her and ran ... we just made it to the car as a piece crashed into the car window. I drove to the nearest police officer and was told "Hey Buddy, I got bigger things to worry about as, I have a guy in a bar with a gun" the officer sped away before I could get a good look at his car number or even a glance at his badge. That prompted me to go get my CCW. If I am ever assaulted again by the same manner you can believe I will return fire immeadiately. That agent was justified and should be left alone by all the government creep that will ensue. It is time we realize that just because people who do the crime have mental issues or different heritage is NO excuse. Enforce the laws we have 100% and stop this degradation of society. |
June 10, 2010, 10:45 AM | #5 | ||
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Your post makes absolutely no sense.
For one, Border Patrol agents, like others in law enforcement, aren't expected as civilians are to retreat from threat if possible. It is their duty to face threat, while weighing risks. For your other scenario: Quote:
Why are you at the border in the first place? Hiking? There's a million other places to hike other than the US-Mexico border. Putting yourself in a position like that is the "coiled snake" syndrome, looking for a confrontation. There may be ranchers or people who own land that borders Mexico, in which case I'm not sure how they police their land, but that's another story if somebody is attacking you on your private property. Quote:
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June 10, 2010, 10:50 AM | #6 | |
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At least in Iraq we were not allowed to shoot people if they threw rocks at our convoy... but I always had rocks to throw at them if they threw one first
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June 10, 2010, 10:51 AM | #7 |
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The true test for using deadly force is: Do you believe that you were in danger of losing your life or being caused serious bodily harm?
In my book, a group/gang of whomever they are throwing rocks at me can cause my death and/or serious bodily injury. Is there a need for further discussion? I think in the Border Patrol Incident, amazing restraint was utilized in killing just one of them.
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June 10, 2010, 10:54 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
Rocks can, and do in fact kill. Border Patrol Agents have the obligation and a duty to go into danger and apprehend people that illegaly enter the country. The option to retreat and detain is limited when they are doing their job. Back-up is often a long time coming, and sometimes by another agency, given that your co-workers may be a mountain ridge away from you. As for the non-LEO, it will depend upon your state law. Some states require that one retreat before using deadly force, others don't. I'll make this simple: Don't throw rocks at people with guns. If you do, expect to get shot. As for detaining a ruthless killer, you don't know what you got until you catch it, and lots of illegals are in fact vicious criminals with past criminal histories. Biker |
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June 10, 2010, 11:13 AM | #9 |
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It's all much simpler than anyone in the media has made it...
If you don't want to risk death by gunfire, don't throw rocks at armed law enforcement agents.
How much simpler could it possibly be? |
June 10, 2010, 11:32 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
To which my common-sensible response is, "You're damned right it wasn't a fair fight! One guy had a rock and the other had a gun! If I were the guy with the rock I'd kicking up dust to get away from that guy!" I learned early on that you don't pick fights with people twice as big as you. You can defend yourself if the fight gets brought to you, but if you mess with the bull, you tend to get the horns. And it's idiotic to blame the bull when the moron that was messing with him had the audacity and stupidity to do it in the first place. As my Great-Grandfather used to say quite clearly: "Well that's what you get for actin' stupid. Now did you learn anything from it?" ~LT
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ- Greek:"Come and take them..." Meaning: Here we peaceably stand as armed and free men, willing to defend that peace, and ready to make war upon anyone who threatens that freedom. Last edited by LordTio3; June 10, 2010 at 11:39 AM. |
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June 10, 2010, 12:23 PM | #11 |
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Here is more of the story here: http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_15265746?source=pkg
As far as I'm concerned the agent did his job by stopping the threat. The young smuggler died because of his foolish actions. |
June 10, 2010, 01:07 PM | #12 |
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They kill their own cops, public officials; cook torture and maim one another and now they are outraged over the death of one street kid involved in suspicious activity at the border. HA.
The kid was known to authorities as a human smuggler. Lay down with the dogs and sometimes ya don't get up. And how many folks in the USA are killed annually by illegals? Way the heck more than one dufus kid at a known crossing for illegals |
June 10, 2010, 01:27 PM | #13 |
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It's ALWAYS a somber/sorrowful time when a young person is killed during a confrontation like this. Did the kid deserve to be killed? Was he throwing rocks too? Whether or not he was throwing rocks, he was amongst those who were.
The Boarder Patrol guys were doing their jobs. The Mexican Police?/Military? is shown on video coming across the boarder to pick up something, the .40 casing perhaps?, and returning to their side. The boy's body and the shell casing were moved according to some "Official" who asks not to be named. This person says it's on the video surveillance tapes from the border check point. IMHO, if you play with the pack, don't be surprised when that entity that turns on the pack that is attacking it/them takes one of you out. The kid made a personal choice to be among those throwing rocks, which ARE deadly weapons and have been for thousands of years, so the kid may not of gotten what HE deserved, but by associating with those throwing the rocks, he got what the pack deserved. It sucks, but that's just the way it is. The Border Patrol guy is most likely now suffering some type of PTSD for having killed a child. It happens. I know, unfortunately, from personal experience in Iraq. Let's focus on SUPPORTING our guy who was involved in this exchange and STOP looking to place the blame on our underpaid BP folks. The BP guy did the right thing even if it is an unsavory thing. He deserves our full support and the Prez should be telling Mexico to STFU. |
June 10, 2010, 01:47 PM | #14 |
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A logical fallacy..
I believe what the OP presents is a fallacy of composition.
If the hypothetical "you" referred to by the OP is joe private citizen walking down a public street then yes it would seem logical to retreat from rock throwers before using deadly force. However, the situation in the story was far from that and the same logic simply does not apply.
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June 10, 2010, 02:02 PM | #15 |
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Is it justified to shoot someone who is throwing rocks at you? Please tell me that you aren't serious!
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June 10, 2010, 02:19 PM | #16 |
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Gents,
For all you guys on both sides of this discussion here some news for you. I live in Las Cruces, N.M.. L.C. is an hour's drive north of Juarez on I-10. Tens years ago "gangs" were not a real problem in L.C. They are now all because of drugs and illegals from 40 milles south of L.C. I have friends who are Border Partol. Local T.V. has reported that 900 + rocks trowing incendents (brick size) have been reported in the past EIGHT months. The Wife & I used to go to El Paso regularly to shop and dine out. Not anymore in the last FIVE years. To many "drive bys" and now we have them in L.C. If we could we'd move but that's not an option at our age. I'm 74. Needless, to say all my handguns are loaded as well as my pump shotgun. My friends in the Border Patrol show far more patience and courage than I can muster. Throw rocks at me , wife, or my dog you'll be shot at. Just my opinion. Mygila |
June 10, 2010, 02:27 PM | #17 |
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A rock can be a lethal weapon. It can cause serious bodily injury or death.
Correct use of force by the Agent. |
June 10, 2010, 02:46 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
Ever occurred to you that rock is man's OLDEST weapon ? Used to hunt, fight kill ? I challenge you to go out and tell first street punk to hit you with the rock from several yards away and if you still can walk after that please do come back and tell |
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June 10, 2010, 03:07 PM | #19 | |
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This is a good read--tongue in cheek and very humorous, but full of truth. Courtesy of Canada Free Press.
Quote:
Back to the OP: (1) rocks do constitute lethal weapons and (2) NO, Border Patrol agents do NOT have a duty to retreat. |
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June 10, 2010, 03:09 PM | #20 |
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Amen Spin2010,having been downtown on April 10,2001 i would have shown no qualms of defending myself against the mobs throwing bricks,rocks,and hunks of asphalt.I had to be downtown,but my AR-15,Rem 870,and Glock 21 had to be with me also.As a drill sargent once told me"We're not training you to be victims"
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June 10, 2010, 03:17 PM | #21 |
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Stoning was the accepted manner of execution in the middle east in biblical times. The community gathered to throw stones, so that each person had a part in the execution of the person deemed unworthy to continue living. That is the background for the widespread use of stone throwing in unrest in the area to this day. If a stone is intended by its user to be a lethal weapon, it certainly can be.
There was an incident on the local news last night in which a relative of a dead teenager said her little angel didn't deserve to die. The teenager was in a stolen car and aimed a firearm at the officer who stopped the car, prompting the office to fire. Same logic as those who condemn the Border Patrol agent. Last edited by TailGator; June 10, 2010 at 03:25 PM. |
June 10, 2010, 03:18 PM | #22 | |
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Dead men tell no tales
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June 10, 2010, 03:42 PM | #23 |
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The officer was doing his job... The business end of a rifle or pistol says stop and obey me any where in the world you go, think of it as a universal language.
Obviously it would have been better to be able to fire a warning shot but in the current legal environment doing such is almost certainly illegal regardless that it could save lives, especially in unpopulated areas. I think the guy did his job...
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June 10, 2010, 04:18 PM | #24 |
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A 1 lb rock thrown at 80 mph hits with with about 225 ft/lbs of force. A 9mm round weight 1/60 of a lb "thrown" at 1000 ft/sec hits with about 250 ft/lbs. Yes, when somebody throws a rock at me, and they show that they are intending to hit me, it is a lethal threat.
http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol412b.htm |
June 10, 2010, 04:43 PM | #25 |
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Stones can be dodged if you know they are coming in. You can also retreat a certain distance away because the stone thrower's range is only so much. The stone throwers in the article appear to be across a river.
I think its right that law enforcement doesnt have to retreat, but what if someone got shot everytime a snowball or rock is being thrown at a cop? That would end up with a lot of community backlash and unknown consequences. It sends a message to the community that its ok to use deadly force when someone doesnt have a knife or pistol which is not what you want to send. In my personal opinion, I would say if the person throwing the rocks was a known violent offender where if they got away it would mean consequences to the community then I think its neccasary to fire. However, anyone else and I think they should retreat. If the border patrol encountered so many rock-throwers, then why do they not wear lightweight pro-tec helmets? It seems like many encounters by the Border Patrol involve a little wrestle, why do they not have lightweight helmets and maybe some pads to absorb blows or stones? http://www.pthelmets.com/products.asp?cat=14 |
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