Breaking up a fight

[mvpel]

As I was walking out of a restaurant with friends this evening, two college-age guys of average build standing in the alcove were having a little beef as we walked past, and it didn't take but a moment before it escalated to shoving and grabbing out on the sidewalk.

This is actually the first time anything like this has happened in my presence since I began routinely packing upon moving to New Hampshire two years ago, and for about a year or two before that (it was surly panhandlers in San Francisco throwing bottles).

The time dilation that everyone talks about - it was a very strange sensation.

My friend and I, both armed in hip holsters, immediately stepped in trying to get them to dial it back and chill out - "Not here," "take it easy," etc - and a girlfriend was trying to talk sense to one of them and another guy came out of the restaurant (I think) and intervened as well, holding one of them back.

My friend got grabbed by the jacket by one of them who was pissed at his interference, and I grabbed that arm (I think), while my friend very calmly explained that he needed to let go of him, and that if we needed to get the cops involved, it would be a simple phone call - or something like that.

Eventually there was one last testosterone-imbued alpha-monkey lash-out by one of them trying to get past the guy restraining him, and they broke off and went their separate ways.

Nobody drew anything, and nothing more than shoving and grabbing transpired, thankfully.

In hindsight, though, I think I need more training.

In analyzing after the fact, I feel like I was dithering a bit - it was all so low-key, sedate, and surreal, like they were just standing there holding each other's jackets at arm's length, that I felt I couldn't really figure out what kind of response was called for in the situation.

Obviously, drawing down on them would have been massive overkill, because there wasn't any reasonable fear of GBH at that early stage. I remember yelling "back off!" or something to that effect but then they ignored me and I felt like I was standing there wondering what to do next - either that, or only 1.5 seconds elapsed and I didn't realize it wasn't 15 seconds.

I thought of grabbing one of them and pulling him back, but I was at the same time concerned about escalating the situation. Even that kind of thing seemed like it would have been overkill, it seemed so sedate and serene, and for that matter, even a booming command voice almost seemed like overkill - instead of "take it easy," "let go," "back off," etc in calm even tones.

On the way home, I started thinking about how things could have gone differently... ... getting an elbow to my face or some such.

Oh, and the tunnel vision - when I grabbed the guy's arm, it was almost as if the texture of his jacket filled my entire field of sight. Very weird.

I'm thinking that some kind of adrenalin-inducing training would be useful to overcome that dithering sensation, the tunnel vision, and the feeling of freezing up. Any recommendations?

Also, I guess I've never really given much thought to how one should go about breaking up an impending fight in the safest way possible - other than standing back and dialing 911 and waiting for the cops to arrive, which is probably what my mother-in-law would advise. I guess neither my friend nor I wanted to see anyone get hurt, including the two combatants.

In the end, the two young turks broke off and my friend and I, the girlfriend, and the other guy prevented an uptick in the city's crime rate, none the worse for wear, so I guess it turned out okay in the end, but it was definitely an eye-opener.

[threefivesevenmag]

It's always dangerous breaking up two people fighting. You never know what the result will be, or why they are fighting.

It could escalate into a group going against you. It was kind of you to intervene, but being an armed civilian I wouldn't want to run the risk of my gun being grabbed by a 3rd party or lost in a wrestling match. Just something to think about, especially with the tunnel vision effect that happened.

Also, if anything really bad came from the situation one of the guys you were helping out by stopping the fight might say you escalated it or did something you may in fact, did not do. It's their word against yours.

Not saying what you did was wrong, just risky, especially being armed. I would've called the police and been a good witness. I see drunk/testosterone/jilted lover guys pushing each other every now and then around town and they're usually not worth sticking my neck out for.

Still, I commend your actions. Watch out for the tunnel vision and try to avoid those risky street scenes you don't have to participate in past a point.

[progunner1957]

being an armed civilian I wouldn't want to run the risk of my gun being grabbed by a 3rd party or lost in a wrestling match.

+1 on that.

As the old coots say, "Discretion is the better part of valor." Translation - personally speaking, I would have let them beat on each other. A fistfight between two guys that want to fight is their business, not mine.

That having been said, I would not stand by and watch a 300 lb. thug beat to death the proverbial 97 pound weakling, male or female.

[Malamute]

It also could have been a set up to stage a mugging or robbery.


You could have just peppered both of them and gone on about your business.

[azurefly]

My friend and I, both armed in hip holsters, immediately stepped in trying to get them to dial it back and chill out - "Not here," "take it easy," etc - and a girlfriend was trying to talk sense to one of them and another guy came out of the restaurant (I think) and intervened as well, holding one of them back.

I would NEVER have gone and put myself between these two jagoffs, and your next paragraph explains very succinctly why. I think your actions were unwise and a big mistake. You were VERY VERY LUCKY to not have this get so far out of hand that you could not have brought it back under control without killing someone, getting killed, or getting imprisoned.

My friend got grabbed by the jacket by one of them who was pissed at his interference, and I grabbed that arm (I think), while my friend very calmly explained that he needed to let go of him, and that if we needed to get the cops involved, it would be a simple phone call - or something like that.

Guy could have pulled a knife and stuck either one of you -- as a matter of fact, either guy could have done it, the one you were watching or the one you weren't.

Even failing that, the two of them could have started swinging at you both. Would you like to have had a fistfight while you were wearing a gun on your hip? Risk having it revealed, lost, PULLED BY YOUR ADVERSARY? Or would you perhaps like to have had to use it against one of these guys because YOUR decision to get involved and stick your nose into the business of two apes resulted in your friend getting pummeled severely, or stabbed?


I really feel that this kind of "I'll-save-everyone" mentality is bound to cause trouble. Save it for when someone's in the process of getting really attacked; not for when two losers get their hackles up over some stupid barroom argument. If CCWers keep it up with this kind of thing, it'll be really bad for CCW's image and then for CCW itself. These kinds of "heroics" are NOT what CCW is for.


-azurefly

[miconoakisland]

Hmmm....

Azurefly is right again???

A simple "knock it off, guys" while walking by would've been an appropriate response in this situation. No need to stop every push-shove seen everyday on the streets. Carrying a concealed weapon can lead to serious unintentional infractions if the police are called, no matter how good your intentions are. Would you wanna go to jail to break up a fight/shoving match for the two idiots?

Like others said, it'd be different if it were an elderly lady and a 200 lb goon. Two college-age dudes pushing and shoving is typical age somewhat appropriate behavior depending on the reason (which you had no idea of).

Let those things go, watch out for yourself and those close to you, and never get involved in a push/shove when carrying, just eat crow if needed and walk away.

Defend the weaker (elderly, women, infirmed, etc) if needed, (as any gentleman should) but only if you would do so unarmed (except for extreme circumstances).

Only if things are life or death upon another will I intercede, or an injustice to the elderly, infirmed, or any such disparity that offends my southern upbringing.

[stratus]

Just because two adults decide they want to have it out in some inappropriate locale, does not suddenly make it my place to butt in. Unless it were in my home, or if I were the owner of my own store and it happened in there. That goes for any two-sided fight. Someone braining another person with a club when the other is clearly unarmed is a whole 'nother story.

Originally Posted by miconoakisland

A simple "knock it off, guys" while walking by would've been an appropriate response in this situation.

Really? I thought a person could get their @$$ kicked for that, too.

[stephen426]

You are not a police officer. Mind your own business. If they are not harming you or any of your loved ones, you are just looking for trouble. Just because you are carrying does not make you a free lance cop. If they got pissed off at your intervention and decided to go "through you" to get to the other guy, you can't really say that it was self defense. I would call the cops and advise them that the cops have been called. If you are not the business owner and if if their actions do not affect you, I say mind your own business!

[miconoakisland]

Stratus,

Quote:
Originally Posted by miconoakisland
A simple "knock it off, guys" while walking by would've been an appropriate response in this situation.

Really? I thought a person could get their @$$ kicked for that, too.

You thought wrong.

Not a stop and confront comment, an over the shoulder low key comment once past the fracas. Maybe a "F*** You!" would be the reply, but I seriously doubt they'd both stop and refocus their violent energy on me over such a comment! But if they did, then I guess I'd be justified in drawing due to the disparity in force!

[Sir William]

Three instant areas of concern. First, DEMAND that the eatery call 911, your party should also ALL dial 911. Multiple 911 calls get a priority response. Second, if a prowl simply showed up, you will be involved in what is termed mutual combat. If a LEO decides to pepper spray or deploy the Taser, you are a target, nobody knows you are Superman. (Unless your red drawers are on the outside of your blue suit) LOL IOWs, you might become a actor, not a good thing. It could become worse if your cover is pulled back and the LEO sees GUN! Third, there is an old academy saw, Remember always that there is a gun involved in every call, YOURS! What would you have done if your CCW(s) had fallen out onto the sidewalk? Stay out of other peoples fights is good advice. I am glad luck was on your side, this time. Training? Observation, call 911 and avoid physical confrontations.

[stratus]

Originally Posted by miconoakisland

Not a stop and confront comment, an over the shoulder low key comment once past the fracas. Maybe a "F*** You!" would be the reply, but I seriously doubt they'd both stop and refocus their violent energy on me over such a comment!

I guess I'm just in the "intervene or not" camp. In for a penny, in for a dollar... so it had better be worth sticking my neck out, and scuffles don't qualify. Not for me.

Have you ever heard of any situation in which someone casually said "hey, break it up", and the scrappers immediately came to their senses? A passing "hey, knock it off" comment is probably not something they would even hear in their altered state of "fighting" consciousness. Such a comment would have little relevance to people intent on beating the snot out of each other, and even though it's unlikely that they would become angry at me for saying it, I find it more likely that they would react by transferring their anger to me, than the comment actually helping any aspect of the situation.

But if they did, then I guess I'd be justified in drawing due to the disparity in force!

Or you could have just walked by and saved yourself the lawyer's fees, not to mention the burden on your conscience. If it actually came to that, I mean.

[mete]

It was a bad idea to intervene. It could have quickly escalated to something very serious .The most you should have done is call 911.

[High Planes Drifter]

A more responsible, and less-liable, way for you to intervene would have been to walk back in the restaraunt and ask for the manager on duty, then have him call the police/intervene. No way would I have stuck out my neck and personally jumed in between those two knuckleheads.

[PD8244]

Getting involved or not is your choice, you're an adult.

Make sure you're aware of exactly what you're getting yourself into beforehand, you don't know if one of them was armed or not. Without your intervention one of them could have killed or severely injured the other one. It's entirely possible that you just saved a life. Always keep in mind before you get into a situation like that, you are more important than them. Make sure number 1 always comes out on top.

Good job. I’m proud that there are still people like you around.

By the way, multiple 911 calls don't get priority.

[XavierBreath]

I'm going to give my first reaction to this rather than read responses, since that is what I would have to do at the scene. Flame away if you like.

You cannot save the whole damned world. While you are separating two brainless sacks of testosterone on the sidewalk, hundreds more are beating themselves bloody all over the country. Your efforts are futile in the big picture.

Your involvement introduces a gun into a fistfight. I understand you did not draw it, but had one of the combatants gotten his hands on it and smoked his adversary or a bystander, you would be in a very thick sticky smelly mess.

You are not a cop. You have no obligation to separate grown children who are too stupid to stay out of fights. By intervening, you increase the risk because of your gun.

Cross the street. Keep walking. Call 911 if you like.

[mvpel]

Thanks for the input, all, I appreciate your thoughts.

[PythonGuy]

I couldn't have said it better, or agree more, with XavierBreath on this one. No more needs to be said.

[Trip20]

Would you and your friend have intervened if you were not carrying firearms? Did you and/or your friend(s) have a few beers or glasses of wine with dinner? Something to consider.

I hope having the "equalizer" in your waistband doesn't make you feel you can handle situations you would otherwise avoid.

I'm not saying this is why you did what you did... but it is a relevant consideration given the information you provided.

[Mikeyboy]

mvpel. Someone already mentioned it, but I feel I need to chime in also. Your not a cop. If two adult men want to bash each others head in, and are not threatening you or your family, stay out of it, and call the cops if you feel it's necessary.

I grew up in an urban blue collar neighborhood and a lot of times I have seen young men who are the best of friends (or even related brother vs. brother), get into arguments, that would lead into fistfights, and an hour later they are best friends again. Its dumb, I know, but if that is the life they want to lead, and they don't hurt no one but themselves, then so be it.

You do not want to get involved in other people's business because like you learned, suddenly the person you are trying to help will turn on you. Ask people in LE, this can even happen if you break up a boyfriend/girlfriend or Husband and Wife fight, suddenly the woman you think your trying to help will attack you for interfering. An easy way to defuse a fight is to simply yell ," knock it off, or I'm calling the cops" If both side yell back for you to stay out of it, then walk away.

I would save "playing cop" if you or your family is directly threatened, or if you witness some stranger that is about to be killed, raped, kidnapped, or severly injured. 911 should always be called whenever possible. All other situations stay out of it and let LE handle it.

[Harley Quinn]

Harley

[azredhawk44]

I've done something very similar.

I'm a regular at a pub here in town that I like a lot. It has a great atmosphere and a great group of people that I hang out with. I've only ever seen the beginnings of one fight there, and I've only heard of 3 total fights in its history.

I broke up the one fight I saw beginning. It was very easy to talk down one guy while my buddy talked down the other.

That being said, there was no physical altercation at that point. No pushing, no fists.

I would still break up a fight in that particular bar, though, because I consider it "mine" in a way. No, I'm not armed there, and never will be. Too much potential trouble. But in a way, it's part of my living room, or my back yard, or something like that. I guess that makes me a lush.

If you see something like a fight in a part of town that feels like it is "yours" and you want to protect it by attempting to de-escalate, I respect that.

Going commando because you feel invincible since you're packing heat is just dumb.

I hope it was just loyalty to your neighborhood and a desire to not have someone else's night ruined that caused you to break it up. But good job, nonetheless. No one got hurt and everyone went home happy, more or less.

[paul45]

Cross the street. Keep walking. Call 911 if you like.

That is the best advise in this entire thread. Mvpel...YOU and your friend are the ones who brought pistols to a fistfight. You were in no danger. You are one lucky individual. That explosive situation could have gone very wrong very quickly. I dont post here very often, hope I didnt butt in to bad....

[Capt. Charlie]

Not a good idea to intervene on this one. Anything you shout at them, anything from "knock it off!" to "your momma wears army boots" will be considered confrontational by some already P.O.'d people, and like others have said, bringing a gun into the picture, even in a high retention holster, ain't a good idea.

I once tried to break up a fight (on duty) between two women. Typical cat fight, except one cat had claws in the form of keys clenched in her fist. I think she was trying to hit the other woman, but she got my face instead, and opened up two inches of that to within a half inch of my eye . Good intentions gone wrong. Next time (on duty) a liberal application of OC solved the problem .

Now off duty? After I call it in, I turn to whoever's with me and say "Five bucks on the big guy!" Hey, you pay good money to sit back and watch this stuff on pay-per-view! (And you ain't gettin' paid to be a referee )

[somerled]

Get as much distance from strangers fighting as you can. They may be armed with firearms and blades as well. Don't let carrying make you over confident. If anything, you have to be more cautious. Walking out of a lighted place into a darker street is always dangerous.

One has to be careful not to escalate a fight. Speak calmly and confidently if at all. Yelling at unreasoned idiots fighting in the street is sometimes like pouring gas on a fire. If they had sense, they wouldn't be fighting in the street.

Don't forget to use the cell phone. The unarmed people exiting with you should have been told to go back inside the restaurant and have the proprieter call 911. Keep yourself between the unarmed and the threats. If your friends know you're carrying, don't have sense to stay the hell out of the way, and will not listen to you when you tell them something for their own good, get new friends.

A CCL holder is not a law enforcer. Your primary reason for carrying is to protect yourself and your loved ones from a lethal threat. If you use force to break up a fight between two strangers such as spraying them, you're committing a crime.

Spray doesn't always stop an attack, either. It may even escalate it. The best stuff I've seen is the OC/CS mixture. Spray an attacker in the nose and eyes. The spray will get the sprayer particularly in confined places or when the wind isn't cooperative. It may prove to be a big handicap if it doesn't end the fight.

Glad you made out all right. Thanks for sharing.

[spacemanspiff]

good for you mvpel, however, if it were me, i'd probably have left the situation alone.

about the only way i could see myself intervening, was if there was a sizable disparity of force involved, as in a 300 lb muscle head pounding on a 140 lb wet noodle.
or supposing the combatants are of equal size, if the fight gets one sided, and becomes 'kick the guy while hes down', then i may feel the need to get the 'victor' to back off. one of my friends had this happen to him, got suckerpunched, beat down to the ground, and got his head kicked around, bad enough he was in a coma for a few weeks.

one thing our society has forgotten is that when two men duke it out, there needs to be a sense of honor/respect. but that applies to just about everything as well, something that is lacking in almost every individual i have come across.