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November 15, 2006, 04:26 AM | #1 |
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Possible correction regarding Claire Wolfe...
In the latest S.W.A.T issue, Claire Wolfe wrote overall a good article about how the "elite" have different rules from the rest of us.
Sort of like, "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others." from George Orwell's "Animal Farm". One question, Claire claims that Vickie Weaver had been unarmed when she was shot. According to my research, Vickie Weaver had been armed with a 9mm pistol, according to Bo Gritz, who was actually there and claimed to put her in the bodybag. Please go to the footnote 810. http://www.byington.org/carl/ruby/ruby4h.htm |
November 15, 2006, 04:38 AM | #2 |
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Regardless of being armed or not, my understanding is that she was not displaying a firearm in her hand at the time she was killed. Her hands were full of Weaver's infant at the time.
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November 15, 2006, 05:18 AM | #3 |
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Yes, I understand that, however, I was making a comment regarding the accuracy of Claire's statement regarding Vickie Weaver's status regarding whether she had been armed or not when she was shot.
When the "wrong" people see this kind of slip off, they will twist it to make it look like Claire was commiting a journalistic fraud. In that article, Claire credited an attorny, Kevin Branscum (I kid you not.), for having done the legal research for the story. |
November 15, 2006, 07:15 AM | #4 |
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Thanks. Given the fact that there were arms in the cabin during an armed standoff, all occupants were technically armed. I think what Claire was referencing was that, at the time of her death, Vicki was holding a baby, not a firearm. "Unarmed" was probably not a technically correct use of words, but I hope the point remains. Rich
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November 22, 2006, 02:12 PM | #5 |
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Horaruchi ( spelled wrong ) the shooter and his direct superiors should be serving several decades for that shooting, In general prison population where some justice could be delivered, also the cowardly idiot that shot the boy and dog. Several higher ups clear to Washington and the lying fools that set Randy up in the first place... That my friends IMO was a terrible act only made worse by the powders that be dismissing it.
That they (Vicky) was technically armed is a load of rubbish. We have nor need this sort of thing in my country, again IMHO. Plenty of terrific law enforcement officials who should be screaming at the top of their voices against this type of atrocities, as it hurts all law folks everywhere. They don't dare in fear of their careers again IMHO. |
November 23, 2006, 02:41 AM | #6 | ||||||
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Quote:
Are you saying then that she was not armed when she was shot? Quote:
I agree. Quote:
Yes, I agree, but hasn't it been the way U.S. government operated more or less since the very beginning? In fact, hasn't it been the way virtually all governments in history operated more or less throughout the history? Quote:
Again, I agree, but this sort of thing will continue to happen whether I like it or not, if the powers that be find it in their perceived interest to do so and they think they can get away with it with minimal cost. After all, who foot the bill to Randy and his familiy after this? Those who were either responsible or thought to be responsible or U.S. tax payers? Quote:
Let's be reasonable on this one, how many U.S. soldiers screamed (figuratively speaking, will apply below to where appropriate) at the top of their voices against the rape and murder of the Iraqi girl and her family at the hands of a few (bad apples) of U.S. Army? Or how many white Southern males screamed at the top of their voices against lynching of blacks during "Good Old Days"? Or how many "liberal" newspapers screamed at the top of their voices against the abuse of freedome of press, through the instigation of lynching by their more opportunistic and mercenary colleagues by the means of politicized racist editorials during "Really Good Old Days"? Or how many Americans screamed at the top of their voices against mistreatment of Natives by U.S. government? There is such thing as "group solidarity", and it has little to do with any unversal, objective sense of "justice", but has much to do with protecting (or at least not intentionally damaging) the perceived collective interest of the members of the group. Quote:
I agree, and does this mean you believe they [plenty of terrific law enforcement officials] put their careers above justice? (By the way, who decides what is "just")? Does this mean you believe they [plenty of terrific law enforcement officials] are more of mercenaries than heroes? ..........and if so, can you blame them? Would you do any different if you were in their place? Do you believe most members of this forum would do any different if they were in their [those plenty of terrific law enforcement officials] place? Last edited by Red Grant; November 23, 2006 at 06:28 AM. |
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November 23, 2006, 11:53 AM | #7 |
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On the law enforcement folks, like all people there are those from very honest and just men to the complete opposite end if the spectrum. Thankfully I do hope/believe the former are in the majority. We are in bad shape if not, but thats another subject completely. Other than that I do think I will stay with my original post on this. I don't think she was armed and that it was murder in the worst degree. Last edited by rem33; November 23, 2006 at 09:57 PM. Reason: back to original post |
November 24, 2006, 02:36 AM | #8 | |||
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I am assuming that you believe "those plenty of terrific law enforcement officials" are a part of the majority of the law enforcement folks, who are very honest and just. Does this mean you believe that the majority of law enforcement folks who are very honest and just put their careers over "justice"? (Again, may I ask who decides what is "just"?) Quote:
The following is an excerpt of footnote 810, released through Lexis Counsel Connect, a communications and information service for attornys, managed by American Lawyers Media, L.P. Soon after Harris' surrender, Gritz persuaded Weaver to allow him and Jackie Brown to come inside the residence and remove Vickie Weaver's body. He obtained a body bag and, with Randy Weaver's assistance, placed Vickie Weaver's body in the bag. When Gritz placed the body in the bag, he removed what he described as a holstered nine milimeter semi-automatic pistol. Please go to the bottom portion of the link, and look for footnote 810. http://www.byington.org/carl/ruby/ruby4h.htm Vickie Weaver was armed when she was shot. (unless Randy strapped the holster after she had been shot, and why would he have done that?) Of course, that doesn't mean the shooting was justified. Let's just stick to facts, instead of overdramatization. Facts show Vickie Weaver was no danger to anyone, so it was unjustified to shoot her. Misrepresenting facts for overdramatization doesn't help Vickie Weaver or anyone else for that matter. Last edited by Red Grant; November 24, 2006 at 03:42 AM. Reason: incorrect link |
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November 24, 2006, 10:34 AM | #9 | |
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Sadly I seriously doubt the Majority of any group would place "honesty" or "justice" over their career.
If you don't understand the meaning it is fruitless to "explain". Fact remains it was murder and no justice was served on/to those responsible. I would question Gritz's honesty. It has been several years but if "memory" serves all of what he said to Randy and/or the press didn't add up. Quote:
Last edited by rem33; November 24, 2006 at 11:47 AM. |
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November 29, 2006, 03:05 AM | #10 | |||||
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I agree. Now, (assuming you are not finanicially independent yet, and mortgage/rent, car/education loans to pay, and you love your current career), are you going to be among those Majorities or among those Minorities who would place "honesty" or "justice over their career? Quote:
All I am asking you is to declare who decides what is "just". Quote:
Are you saying that Gritz was lying about removing a holstered nine milimeter pistol from Vickie Weaver? Quote:
Again, who decides what is "just"? Quote:
............and how did U.S. government realize "Manifest Destiny"? using honest, and "just" and peaceful means? Both you and I (and yes, Randy Weaver, and his surviving family, too) are beneficiaries of the consequences of what U.S. government did to the Natives. Do you find what U.S. governement did to the Natives acceptable? |
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November 29, 2006, 11:25 PM | #11 |
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Natives? Fer Pete's sake. Just where did that come from?
I believe I'm "JUST" beyond caring. |
November 30, 2006, 02:19 AM | #12 | |||
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Suppose someone claims to find it unacceptable, but does little to carry out what he considers as "just" because that someone is more interested in his career and/or well-being over "justice" as he sees it, then: Does this mean this someone accept it or does not accept it? Or Are you going to do something significant/meaningful about it either now or sometime in the future to bring "justice" as you see it to those you think/hold responsible for what happend to Randy Weaver and his family even if that could cost either your well-being/comfort or a career (that you love)? |
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