glock saved the 10mm.

[kcub]

Bears saved the 10.

[dakota1911]

I don't know if Glock or Colt, or handloaders saved it, but none of those groups hurt it. These days the ammo is available in most gun stores down here. I figured it had "arrived" when I saw Aluminum cased Blazer ammo in 10mm.

[JERRYS.]

Glock saved the 10mm alright. before then the round was unpopular and the guns that shot them were priced out of range of modest income folks. then along comes the G20, then the G29, and now there are a lot of ammo companies actually making 10mm powered loads.

the Seecamp 32 saved the .32acp from obscurity.

[Brotherbadger]

Saved? I donno about that. The 10mm has had a hardcore following for a long time. Definitely made it more mainstream and affordable though.

[Have gun-will travel]

you guys talk about guns that saved the 10 .You have not mentioned Don Johnson and Miami Vice brought the 10 mm to life on TV .Had it not been for the show and "Sonny Crockett" the popularity might not have grown to where Colt wanted to make their pistol . Just my 2 cents.

[coldbeer]

Would it be safe to say Colt saved the 10mm and Glock made it more popular? Even without the G20 I still think the 10mm would be around today. It's just too good of a round not to be. Even if Colt and Glock didn't make guns for the 10mm Ted Nugent would of saved it.

[WESHOOT2]

The 10mm remains a hobbyist cartridge.

The market decided.

[tipoc]

Well it's a niche cartridge. It's in good company though. 38 Super, 10mm, 44 S&W, 41 Magnum and a few others. It's in that second tier of cartridges that are not the most popular but not truly an outsider.

tipoc

[FALshootist]

The way history tells it, Colt saved the 10mm when the Bren 10 fell through and couldn't deliver their product or mags. I always wanted an original Delta Elite and couldn't afford one back in the day. Now I don't have a need for one.

Glock has kept the round alive with the high quality, reasonable priced, outstanding G20.

[Sevens]

The way history tells it

-or, perhaps, the way you care to read history!

Plenty of fine arguments of how it MAY have happened. Without the FBI's interest in 10mm, with a large bit of help by Smith & Wesson, Glock may never have bothered with the 10mm, and Glock still deserves enormous credit to the subject for continuing to offer the 10mm to a buying market that simply must be FRACTIONAL compared to all of their other caliber offerings, save for the .357 Sig and the .45 GAP.

We could even make one very find argument that the boutique ammo makers mentioned earlier in the thread get a lot of credit for keeping interest in the round alive so that the BIG ammo companies might actually bother to spit out a little ammo for it.

[tipoc]

Let's look...

The 10mm was introduced in 1983 with the Bren 10. Production ran spottily into 1986 but combined problems forced closure of the plant and the end of the gun.

The next year Colt announced the Delta Elite in 10mm. It was the first and only major company to do so. The first stage of production lasted from 1987 till 1996. The Delta Elite proved that the round worked.

1986 was the year of the Miami shootout and the FBI began it's scramble for a new round. They went first to a 147gr. 9mm bullet, then the 10mm then the 40 S&W.

The FBI decided it did not want a 1911 in 10mm so S&W was tasked with providing them with a gun. In late 1987 the first 1076 was sent to the FBI for evaluation. By 1989-90 S&W began production on both the 1006 and for the FBI the 1076. (see Supica and Nahas 3rd. edition of the Standard Catalog). The FBI's interest in the 10mm did not last long.

Colt was in full production of the gun in 1987. S&W did not begin full production till 1989.

The Delta Elite kept the round alive. S&W gave it a giant boost.

By 1993 though S&W ceased production of the 10 series guns. As mentioned Colt stopped production in 1996. Both due to slow sales. The 40S&W gun sales outpaced it. It was the arrival of the 40S&W that knocked the 10mm into the second tier for good.

S&W though produced the 10mm in revolvers as the 610 from 1989 to 2004.

Other firms had joined in over the years. Glock began with the G20 in 1991. It has continuously produced pistols in 10 mm since then. Not their biggest seller but they have kept it up. The G29 showed up in 1997.

Colt resumed production of the Delta Elite in 2009. Small batches are produced.

Kimber, Dan Wesson, Nighthawk, EAA Witness Tanfoglio, STI and some others have produced it over the years.

It was just a fact that Colt produced the first commercially successful line of guns in 10mm. If they did not maybe S&W would have. But it didn't happen like that so Colt gets the credit.

Glock has helped keep the round in the hands of shooters and has made it affordable. It did not "save" it. It wasn't dead, Colt and S&W saw to that. But not even Glock has raised it out of the niche layer, second tier layer. The 10mm is a great round.

tipoc

[Sevens]

tipoc, that's a fine timeline of the 10mm handguns and how it hashed out. One thing that often occurs to me but can't be simply "proven" is Smith & Wesson's role in the success/lack of in the 10mm round.

It's long been my argument that the 10xx series of 3rd Gen pistols and Smith & Wesson's very public involvement with the FBI and 10mm was a large boost to the round's commercial viability but in the very same vein, Smith & Wesson also did, in my opinion just as much harm to the 10mm's viability when Smith & Wesson (with Winchester) engineered the .40 S&W round.

Simply put, Smith & Wesson very quickly ceased production of the 10mm handgun when they saw the magnificent upcoming success of the then-new .40 S&W round.

It's long been my opinion that Smith & Wesson very willfully ceased production of their 10mm pistols specifically to direct attention & sales toward the .40 S&W chambered handguns.

I have no proof whatsoever in this assertion and I suppose I never will, but I would be absolutely enthralled if I could ever see, hear or read tales from the inside of the company with regards to this exact period of time and subject.

[tipoc]

Sevens,

There are some loose threads here, let's see...

I'm looking at the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson'e entries for the 10mm and the 40 S&W and at the following links...

http://www.pistoldynamics.com/PSL_Bio-2011.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%2...e_note-Speer-6

Let's put some of this together maybe.

In 1983 Paul Liebenberg a South African shooter and pistolsmith and top rated IPSC competitor moved to the U.S. and started working for Pachmyer Gun Works in L.A. He worked on 1911s and other guns and developed loads for the 10mm. In the mid 80s or so he and his compadres began working on a cut down version of the 10mm, initially designed by Witt Collins, called "the centimeter". Their goal was to fit it in a 1911. They made new barrels for it and it worked. This was early 1986.

Well Miami occurred and the FBI began testing the ammunition available to it. Seminars were held, research done, testers and ammo manufacturers were in a frenzy of activity for several years. Debates, threats, money was at stake, reputations too. The transition from revolvers was in full swing and if the 9mm wasn't cutting it a lot was at stake. No law enforcement agencies had the resources to test and evaluate ammo and guns like the FBI and Justice did so what they said carried a lot of weight.

The FBI began tests and Special Agent in Charge John Hall decided to bring his Delta Elite along and his 10mm handloads. It went up against the 9mm and 45 and various commercial ammo. He had a lighter load of a 180 gr. bullet at about 1,000 fps that did all that they wanted a handgun round to do for them. Much more controllable than a 180 or 200 gr. load at 1200-1300 fps. The FBI liked it and gave the nod to S&W.

S&W took the 4506 and began to remake it for the 10mm. Problems ensued as S&W had not made a semi for 10mm. Spring weight, slide weight, etc. took time to get right and experimentation. Reliability with more than one bullet weight and type had to be right. The model 1076 was built for the FBI.

The FBI placed and order for 10,000 of them. S&W stood to make alot of money in the leo market from this.

The first 2400 guns were delivered to the FBI with TEU prefixes (Test and Evaluation Units). There were problems with reliability. Agents complained of the size and weight of the guns. (their previous guns were smaller and lighter and fit well their standard dress of slacks and sport coats.) Shooting scores fell off due to loads more powerful than the 45 acp. The testing convinced the FBI they needed Hall's lighter load but also that the 4506 frames were not liked. There are some who insist this was due to female FBI agents. This is not true. There were not that many women there to block it or that had the influence to block it. It was both male and female agents who were not convinced that they needed the bigger, heavier gun to lug around.

Meanwhile, S&W President Steve Melvin asked Lindenberg to build him two 5906's, a 9mm gun, chambered in the Centimeter round. Lindenberg did and they worked well.

At the same time S&W engineers figured that the lighter FBI loads for the 10mm left a lot of empty space. They also know what Lindenberg was doing.

Meanwhile a new gun from an unknown gunmaker was hitting the U.S. like a brick through a windshield. It was invisible to X rays, John McClane said. It was ceramic, etc. Everybody wanted one.

The FBI sent the 2400 1076s back to S&W for rework. The rest of the order was put on hold. They never took delivery. The FBI kept some of them. Others were sold or returned to S&W. Some destroyed. By 1989 the 40 S&W was ready.

Glock had been working on a 10mm handgun. They dropped it and went to the 40 S&W. They introduced the Glock 22 early in 1990 a few months ahead of S&W's 4006. The hottest gun company on earth, Glock, beat S&W to the punch. Glock introduced the G20 in months later. With the 22 they ate S&Ws lunch.

Both the G22 and the 4006 were based on 9mm frame guns and split the difference in capacity. Lighter and handier than the 4506 or 1006.

S&W lost a lot of money in those days. They had the contract with the FBI for the 10mm. They lost it. They won the battle for the 40 S&W. But lost hte battle for gun sales to Glock. Glock knocked S&W off the perch as the leo gun of America.

S&W produced the 610 revolver and re-introduced it a couple of years ago.

tipoc

[kcub]

I hope glock popularizes the .50 GI.

[10mm4ever]

Some very good and accurate info on the 10mm in this thread. Actually, the 10mm 'peaked' in 1989 when the FBI announced that they chose it. Ironically, they were most responsible for it's loss of popularity as well. The 10mm made magnum performance in a service pistol a viable alternative and is still one of the most versatile semi auto calibers in history.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

glock saved the 10mm

I think this is exactly right. They greatly increased or at least sustained the round from cult to "cult-plus".

[pete2]

I think the 10 is about like the .41 Mag. It will never be popular but may never die.

[tipoc]

glock saved the 10mm

Glock played and plays a roll in keeping it alive and accessible to shooters but Glock may never have built a gun for it had the FBI not decided to go to the 10mm after Miami. That move meant tons of potential money.

After the Bren 10 collapsed no company produced a gun for the 10mm. If you wanted one you were out of luck or had to build your own. No one made barrels for it, there were no guns to put any barrels in. It was a dead round except for a few handloaders and experimenters. Till Colt and the Delta Elite.

Had FBI Agent John Hall not not taken his personal Delta Elite and his handloads to the FBI trials the FBI would have passed the 10mm by. It wasn't in their vision till Hall brought the Colt.

Once the FBI wanted the 10 S&W and Glock saw the potential law enforcement contracts and stepped up. Both rushed to produce guns for it.

When the FBI switched mid stream to the 40 S&W both companies pivoted quickly to that. S&W and Glock deserve the credit for the rise of the 40 S&W.

It was Colt that saved the 10mm from the scrap heap. It's just true.

Glock has played a big role in keeping it alive.

Unless there is a lot of potential money involved Glock doesn't build the gun. It's made no gun for the 38 Super.

tipoc

[Clark]

Two months ago I got a KKM 40sw conversion barrel for the G20.

That saved the G20, that I have not shot in 15 years.