Stupid Question

Gary Conner · November 15, 2006, 04:42 PM

I know this sounds dumb, but when looking at single action colt frontiers, Peacemakers, etc., and the description the seller lists says "Black Powder Frame" how do you go about telling a black powder frame handgun, from one that is not a black powder frame?

Is it the serial number that tells you or is there a difference in apperance of the frames, or what? Was there a certain date they switched over?

Jim Watson · November 15, 2006, 05:25 PM

There are really two different things going on here.
The early Colt SAAs had a screw coming in from the front at an angle to retain the base pin. This is known as the "black powder frame."

Colt later "modernized" with the spring loaded base pin latch going across the frame, allowing the cylinder to be removed without a screwdriver.

This is sometimes known as the "smokeless frame" but is not strictly correct. Colt changed the base pin retainer about 1892 and did not recommend their guns for smokeless powder until 1896, so there were four years in there when a black powder gun had a "smokeless frame".

Dates and serial numbers given vary from source to source. Blue Book gives different serial number ranges in the text and in charts in the back of the same book, for example. There was some overlap anyhow, as Colt used parts on hand, so there is not really a precise cutoff.

Naturally all modern SAAs whether Colt or a copy are ok for smokeless powder no matter whether they have a "black powder frame" with base pin screw or not.

**Unclenick** · November 15, 2006, 05:28 PM

The generic answer is going to have to do with either how beefy the frame is (appearnce) or how beefy the alloy is (not visible)? In other words, some will have a visible design change, while others, quite intentionally, will be made to replicate original BP design lines (though likely not Colts, themselves, but other makers), but using more modern metalurgy.

To be safe, you're going to have to check with the factory or a collectors group on a serial and model number basis to learn about individual guns.

Nick

Wildalaska · November 15, 2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

quite intentionally, will be made to replicate original BP design lines (though likely not Colts, themselves, but other makers), but using more modern metalurgy.

Colt still does BP frames in their SAA line

WildjustanasideAlaska

**Unclenick** · November 15, 2006, 06:13 PM

Wild,

Are they doing it with metalurgy that will withstand modern cartridges? I would assume so. I don't shoot Cowboy, as you can tell. Interesting to learn Colt is actively replicating itself in that detail. I hadn't realized it, but I suppose it makes sense, given the popularity of CA events. The CA shooters seem to have practically taken over our club some days. And I have to admit to having cast the occassional lustful eye on the Bisley frame Vaquero. . .

Nick

Wildalaska · November 15, 2006, 06:34 PM

Colts frame metallurgy is the same, just the frame style is different, I have two new SAAs in stock with BP frames btw

WildjustapitchAlaska

Dfariswheel · November 15, 2006, 07:23 PM

To be a little more clear:

There are original Colt SAA's as made in the 1800's that were black powder guns and NOT safe for smokeless powder.
After the late 1890's the frames were made of better steels and heat treating to allow use with the more powerful smokeless powders.

Today, Colt and companies that make modern replicas of original Colt SAA's offer guns in black powder STYLE frames.
The early 1800's frames had certain differences like the screw retention for the cylinder pin and other small differences.

The modern guns are made for use with modern powders, but LOOK like old, original black powder guns.
It's usually these modern guns that are advertised as having "black powder" or "smokeless powder" frames.

All of these guns are made of modern steels and heat treating and can shoot modern ammo, but for Cowboy shooters and collectors they are made to LOOK like original black powder versions.

Gary Conner · November 16, 2006, 07:36 AM

Thanks much guys.
I appreciate it.

James K · November 16, 2006, 09:25 PM

Actually, the "smokeless powder" Colts were not made of "better steel", they were made of steel. The early frames were made of wrought iron; they were originally case hardened for durability since iron can't be hardened like steel can.

FWIW, the usual cut-off serial given for black/smokeless is 165,000 (1896), but as noted by others, that is an approximation.

Jim

November 15, 2006, 04:42 PM	#1
Gary Conner Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2005 Posts: 440	Stupid Question I know this sounds dumb, but when looking at single action colt frontiers, Peacemakers, etc., and the description the seller lists says "Black Powder Frame" how do you go about telling a black powder frame handgun, from one that is not a black powder frame? Is it the serial number that tells you or is there a difference in apperance of the frames, or what? Was there a certain date they switched over?

November 15, 2006, 05:28 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Stupid answer The generic answer is going to have to do with either how beefy the frame is (appearnce) or how beefy the alloy is (not visible)? In other words, some will have a visible design change, while others, quite intentionally, will be made to replicate original BP design lines (though likely not Colts, themselves, but other makers), but using more modern metalurgy. To be safe, you're going to have to check with the factory or a collectors group on a serial and model number basis to learn about individual guns. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 15, 2006, 06:13 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Wild, Are they doing it with metalurgy that will withstand modern cartridges? I would assume so. I don't shoot Cowboy, as you can tell. Interesting to learn Colt is actively replicating itself in that detail. I hadn't realized it, but I suppose it makes sense, given the popularity of CA events. The CA shooters seem to have practically taken over our club some days. And I have to admit to having cast the occassional lustful eye on the Bisley frame Vaquero. . . Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 15, 2006, 05:25 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	There are really two different things going on here. The early Colt SAAs had a screw coming in from the front at an angle to retain the base pin. This is known as the "black powder frame." Colt later "modernized" with the spring loaded base pin latch going across the frame, allowing the cylinder to be removed without a screwdriver. This is sometimes known as the "smokeless frame" but is not strictly correct. Colt changed the base pin retainer about 1892 and did not recommend their guns for smokeless powder until 1896, so there were four years in there when a black powder gun had a "smokeless frame". Dates and serial numbers given vary from source to source. Blue Book gives different serial number ranges in the text and in charts in the back of the same book, for example. There was some overlap anyhow, as Colt used parts on hand, so there is not really a precise cutoff. Naturally all modern SAAs whether Colt or a copy are ok for smokeless powder no matter whether they have a "black powder frame" with base pin screw or not.

November 15, 2006, 06:34 PM	#6
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Colts frame metallurgy is the same, just the frame style is different, I have two new SAAs in stock with BP frames btw WildjustapitchAlaska

November 15, 2006, 07:23 PM	#7
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	To be a little more clear: There are original Colt SAA's as made in the 1800's that were black powder guns and NOT safe for smokeless powder. After the late 1890's the frames were made of better steels and heat treating to allow use with the more powerful smokeless powders. Today, Colt and companies that make modern replicas of original Colt SAA's offer guns in black powder STYLE frames. The early 1800's frames had certain differences like the screw retention for the cylinder pin and other small differences. The modern guns are made for use with modern powders, but LOOK like old, original black powder guns. It's usually these modern guns that are advertised as having "black powder" or "smokeless powder" frames. All of these guns are made of modern steels and heat treating and can shoot modern ammo, but for Cowboy shooters and collectors they are made to LOOK like original black powder versions.

November 16, 2006, 07:36 AM	#8
Gary Conner Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2005 Posts: 440	Thanks much guys. I appreciate it.

November 16, 2006, 09:25 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Actually, the "smokeless powder" Colts were not made of "better steel", they were made of steel. The early frames were made of wrought iron; they were originally case hardened for durability since iron can't be hardened like steel can. FWIW, the usual cut-off serial given for black/smokeless is 165,000 (1896), but as noted by others, that is an approximation. Jim