38+P Brass

Gary H · October 12, 2001, 09:24 PM

Do I use 38 Special brass, or must I find 38+P brass. I've seen brass stamped +P, but don't know if it is actually structurally different.

WESHOOT2 · October 13, 2001, 03:11 AM

What are you doing, and what do you want to do?

sricciardelli · October 13, 2001, 04:20 AM

No difference between .38 Special, .38 Special +P, .38 Special +P+ brass.

WESHOOT2 · October 13, 2001, 04:31 AM

Your brass must be different from my brass.

Long Path · October 13, 2001, 05:41 AM

Only difference is the headstamp.

L.P.

WESHOOT2 · October 13, 2001, 05:47 AM

Weight, volume, annealing, wall and web thickness all the same?

Gary H · October 13, 2001, 11:16 AM

Thanks..that is what I thought. The headstamp on some of my brass had me confused.

BTW: My brass looks better than your brass. Very Shiny?

renaissance7697 · October 13, 2001, 04:14 PM

Sorry, but:

CONTRARY to what the manufacturers will tell you , if you
ask (I have contacted several on this question)

There HAS TO BE some kind of Difference!

Time and again, using the exact same settings of my
progressive press ( Switching from one to the other without
readjusting anything). Using the exact same components except for the case: >

When I use +P brass > I get a "wrinkel" in the case just below where the base of the bullet is seated.

When I use "NON +P Cases" I DO NOT ! !

Same with +P+ against non "P" only more so.

Don't know WHAT the difference is but >
There IS a difference.

C.R.Sam · October 13, 2001, 07:27 PM

Aristotle obviously never made a "perfect" martini for another.

Variations in brass between manufacturers, between batches from same source, and within samples from same batch. If you are loadin to the upper limits you should QC your own brass. Even find flash hole variations within same batch.

If makin plinkers.....crank em. If makin precision ammo and/or hot stuff....pay attention to all the details.

Sam

JMC · October 14, 2001, 06:18 AM

FYI, this is a direct copy from the Starline web site on .38 Spl. +P brass.

38 SPL+P has no difference from the standard 38 SPL, other than headstamp designation for load segregation. Due to standard case design, will handle +P pressures with no problems.

Starline Brass

renaissance7697 · October 14, 2001, 07:32 AM

That declaration ( No Difference between +P and standard)
is for Starline Brass only.
It may well be true, in the case of THEIR caseings
Starline has no vested interest in lying.
however
As another poster to this thread has mentioned.
Every Manufacturer has its own specifications.

Factory Ammo manufacturers DO have a vested
interest in causing confusion and problems among
us reloaders.
They are NOT thrilled about us using their casings
to "roll our own".

Anything that causes difficulty in our enterprise eventually
tends to more sales for THEM.

I would not put it past them to foster DIS-Information
surrounding this question.

I am aware that Starline MAKES some (but not all) of the
casings that Factory Ammo Mfgs use.

On another but related point.

I have noticed that spent "NT" (non toxic) ammo cases do not
reload nicely.
I believe that the primers may either crimped or possibly of a slightly different different dimension.

This may be necessary for the manufacturing process, but it
could also be another effort by Factory Ammo Manufacturers to
discourage re-loading,

JMC · October 15, 2001, 07:01 AM

renaissance7697

I made NO mention of any other mfg. of .38 Spl. + P brass.

My sole intention was to advise, for information purposes only, what Starline Brass says of their brass.

After 38 years of reloading experience I am very well aware that each mfg. of brass has their own specs.

WIL TERRY · October 15, 2001, 03:38 PM

LET ME ASSURE ONE AND ALL THAT THERE IS FOR SURE SOME BIG DIFFERENCES IN 38SPL BRASS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER.
FOR INSTANCE:
SOME YEARS AGO I WAS SHOOTING A BUNCH OF 38/44 HANDLOADS IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT SIXGUNS AS A FAVORED LOAD. THE BRASS WAS MARKED +P AND I DIDN'T HAVE A SINGULAR PROBLEM WITH IT AT ALL WITH 160GR SWC BULLETS GOING NEARLY 1400 FPS.
IN THE BY 'N BY I FOUND A BIG BATCH OF ONCE FIRED 38SPL, BRASS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER, THAT HAD COME FROM FACTORY 38 WADCUTTERS I'D SHOT UP PREVIOUSLY. SO I SET UP THE TOOLING AND LOADED THEM ALL WITH THE SAME POWDER, SAME PRIMERS, SAME LOT OF BULLETS AS I'D USED BEFORE. IT WAS A DANG FINE LOOKIN' BATCH OF HANDLOADED AMMO IF I DO SAY SO MYSELF, AND I DO.
SO COME SHOOTIN' TIME I HANDED A 5" M27 LOADED WITH THIS NEW BATCH OF 38/44 HANDLOADS TO MY SHOOTIN' BUDDY AND HE PROCEEDED TO HIT EVERYTHING IN SIGHT FOR 6 ROUNDS, OPENED THE CYLINDER, HIT THE EXTRACTOR ROD, AND ALL 6 CASE HEADS DROPPED INTO HIS HAND SANS THE CASE WALLS. THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WAS PRICELESS!!!! THE LOOK ON MINE WAS DOWNRIGHT EMBARRASSMENT , I'LL TELL YOU!
IN A LATER COMPARISON THE WALLS OF THOSE CASES WERE MARKEDLY THINNER THAN THE +P BRASS.
SO DID I PULL THE LOADS DOWN? HELL NO!!! I JUST SHOT 'EM UP IN A TIGHTER HEADSPACED SIXGUN WITH NARY A PROBLEM. STILL USING THAT BRASS WITH STANDARD 38 WADCUTTER HANDLOADS

DON'T DO AS I DO , DO AS I SAY...YOU HEAR ME, MISTER????!!!

renaissance7697 · October 15, 2001, 07:11 PM

No offense intended.

Just trying to expand on the train of thought.

Blarneystone · October 15, 2001, 08:39 PM

After reading the opinions in this thread, I am curious about the people here who do load +p.

I was looking at the Alliant powder site and saw that the difference in velocity between standard and +p when using unique powder is something like 55 fps. Does that type of speed justify it?

Also, if I am to understand some of you, you are saying I can take my standard 38spc shells and measure the powder to +p right? If so, why doesn't everyone do it?

- I like shooting +p better than standard myself.

Jager1 · October 17, 2001, 02:02 AM

I use them interchangeably and have not suffered any problems. I can imagine that problems may be encountered if loading to the high side of the +P scale using mixed brass, especially after repeated firings. As the astute here have already mentioned, manufacturers do have different specs for their brass.

I have loaded .38 +P 158 grain RNL at 1,000 fps into mixed .38 and 38 +P casings several times over and have yet to see a detrimental effect or any sign that would indicate caution be exercised. These rounds are fired in either a S&W Model 66 .357 w/4" bbl or a Colt Trooper MKIII .357 4" bbl for proofing.

renaissance7697 · October 17, 2001, 07:48 AM

The problem I was referring to was NOT the issue
of using "non +P" brass to reload "heavy (+P)" loads.

I do not build heavy loads, quite the contrary.

The phenomina I have noticed is that +P (and +P+)
brass "wrinkle/bulge" where the base of the bullet winds up after
being seated and crimped.
When "non +P brass DO NOT > using the self same die adjustments and bullets (i.e. varying only the brass).

Leading me to suspect that there is something different
dimensionwise about the Brass itself between "normal" and "+P" brass.

.

hebejebe · October 18, 2001, 11:42 PM

Two observations;

1) Just checked Speer reloading manual #13.
Same case specified for 38 and 38+P loads - 'Speer'.
Also, under 38, they touch on the +P developement but say nothing about case differences,
which leads to..
2) The people who pioneered the 357 and 44 Mags didn't have Mag or +P cases to work with; they worked with the Special cases loaded to higher pressures in stronger guns.

Sooooo.......

C.R.Sam · October 19, 2001, 01:12 AM

hebejebe....

And some of the folks loadin stoutish .38spec and .44spec preferred the thinner balloon head brass cause it would hold more of the slower powders necessary without hangin the bullets out of the case so far. Don't shoot any of that stuff in your J, K, or L frames. Or better yet, just don't do it. Mags are cheap now, you don't have to build your own by overstuffin.

I think what renaissance has encountered is thicker brass in HIS +P cases, causing the bulge.

Sam

hebejebe · October 19, 2001, 09:15 AM

I wasn't implying one should be indiscrimate in using 38 Special loads, only that there are no differences in the cases (other than dif's between manufacturers.)
The +P designation was adopted to warn people 'not for use in guns not meant to use them', and if'n ya don't know, don't use.
I agree that if you want 357 performance, use a 357, period.
As a wise man once said (W.C. Fields?)
'No sense in being a damn fool about it.'

Hal · October 21, 2001, 07:03 AM

renaissance7697,
I'm not sure I buy that mfg's are against us reloading. Quite the contrary. I believe mafg's, with a few exceptions, tend to cater to the reloader. If what you're saying were true, then far more of them would used crimped primers, aluminum cases or sopme other means to discourage reloading.

October 13, 2001, 03:11 AM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	WHAT? What are you doing, and what do you want to do? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 13, 2001, 04:31 AM	#4
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	? Your brass must be different from my brass. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 13, 2001, 05:41 AM	#5
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Only difference is the headstamp. L.P. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

October 13, 2001, 05:47 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Weight, volume, annealing, wall and web thickness all the same? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

October 13, 2001, 04:14 PM	#8
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	Beg to differ Sorry, but: CONTRARY to what the manufacturers will tell you , if you ask (I have contacted several on this question) There HAS TO BE some kind of Difference! Time and again, using the exact same settings of my progressive press ( Switching from one to the other without readjusting anything). Using the exact same components except for the case: > When I use +P brass > I get a "wrinkel" in the case just below where the base of the bullet is seated. When I use "NON +P Cases" I DO NOT ! ! Same with +P+ against non "P" only more so. Don't know WHAT the difference is but > There IS a difference. __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

October 12, 2001, 09:24 PM	#1
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	38+P Brass Do I use 38 Special brass, or must I find 38+P brass. I've seen brass stamped +P, but don't know if it is actually structurally different.

October 13, 2001, 04:20 AM	#3
sricciardelli Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: Montana Posts: 489	No difference between .38 Special, .38 Special +P, .38 Special +P+ brass.

October 13, 2001, 11:16 AM	#7
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Thanks..that is what I thought. The headstamp on some of my brass had me confused. BTW: My brass looks better than your brass. Very Shiny?

October 13, 2001, 07:27 PM	#9
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Aristotle obviously never made a "perfect" martini for another. Variations in brass between manufacturers, between batches from same source, and within samples from same batch. If you are loadin to the upper limits you should QC your own brass. Even find flash hole variations within same batch. If makin plinkers.....crank em. If makin precision ammo and/or hot stuff....pay attention to all the details. Sam

October 14, 2001, 06:18 AM	#10
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	38+P Brass FYI, this is a direct copy from the Starline web site on .38 Spl. +P brass. 38 SPL+P has no difference from the standard 38 SPL, other than headstamp designation for load segregation. Due to standard case design, will handle +P pressures with no problems. Starline Brass __________________ Jim - NRA Life Member since '69.

October 14, 2001, 07:32 AM	#11
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	For JMC Re: Diff > No Dif > ? That declaration ( No Difference between +P and standard) is for Starline Brass only. It may well be true, in the case of THEIR caseings Starline has no vested interest in lying. however As another poster to this thread has mentioned. Every Manufacturer has its own specifications. Factory Ammo manufacturers DO have a vested interest in causing confusion and problems among us reloaders. They are NOT thrilled about us using their casings to "roll our own". Anything that causes difficulty in our enterprise eventually tends to more sales for THEM. I would not put it past them to foster DIS-Information surrounding this question. I am aware that Starline MAKES some (but not all) of the casings that Factory Ammo Mfgs use. On another but related point. I have noticed that spent "NT" (non toxic) ammo cases do not reload nicely. I believe that the primers may either crimped or possibly of a slightly different different dimension. This may be necessary for the manufacturing process, but it could also be another effort by Factory Ammo Manufacturers to discourage re-loading, __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

October 15, 2001, 07:01 AM	#12
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	renaissance7697 I made NO mention of any other mfg. of .38 Spl. + P brass. My sole intention was to advise, for information purposes only, what Starline Brass says of their brass. After 38 years of reloading experience I am very well aware that each mfg. of brass has their own specs. __________________ Jim - NRA Life Member since '69.

October 15, 2001, 03:38 PM	#13
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	38 SPECIAL BRASS LET ME ASSURE ONE AND ALL THAT THERE IS FOR SURE SOME BIG DIFFERENCES IN 38SPL BRASS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER. FOR INSTANCE: SOME YEARS AGO I WAS SHOOTING A BUNCH OF 38/44 HANDLOADS IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT SIXGUNS AS A FAVORED LOAD. THE BRASS WAS MARKED +P AND I DIDN'T HAVE A SINGULAR PROBLEM WITH IT AT ALL WITH 160GR SWC BULLETS GOING NEARLY 1400 FPS. IN THE BY 'N BY I FOUND A BIG BATCH OF ONCE FIRED 38SPL, BRASS FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER, THAT HAD COME FROM FACTORY 38 WADCUTTERS I'D SHOT UP PREVIOUSLY. SO I SET UP THE TOOLING AND LOADED THEM ALL WITH THE SAME POWDER, SAME PRIMERS, SAME LOT OF BULLETS AS I'D USED BEFORE. IT WAS A DANG FINE LOOKIN' BATCH OF HANDLOADED AMMO IF I DO SAY SO MYSELF, AND I DO. SO COME SHOOTIN' TIME I HANDED A 5" M27 LOADED WITH THIS NEW BATCH OF 38/44 HANDLOADS TO MY SHOOTIN' BUDDY AND HE PROCEEDED TO HIT EVERYTHING IN SIGHT FOR 6 ROUNDS, OPENED THE CYLINDER, HIT THE EXTRACTOR ROD, AND ALL 6 CASE HEADS DROPPED INTO HIS HAND SANS THE CASE WALLS. THE LOOK ON HIS FACE WAS PRICELESS!!!! THE LOOK ON MINE WAS DOWNRIGHT EMBARRASSMENT , I'LL TELL YOU! IN A LATER COMPARISON THE WALLS OF THOSE CASES WERE MARKEDLY THINNER THAN THE +P BRASS. SO DID I PULL THE LOADS DOWN? HELL NO!!! I JUST SHOT 'EM UP IN A TIGHTER HEADSPACED SIXGUN WITH NARY A PROBLEM. STILL USING THAT BRASS WITH STANDARD 38 WADCUTTER HANDLOADS DON'T DO AS I DO , DO AS I SAY...YOU HEAR ME, MISTER????!!!

October 15, 2001, 07:11 PM	#14
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	J M C No offense intended. Just trying to expand on the train of thought. __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

October 15, 2001, 08:39 PM	#15
Blarneystone Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2001 Posts: 152	After reading the opinions in this thread, I am curious about the people here who do load +p. I was looking at the Alliant powder site and saw that the difference in velocity between standard and +p when using unique powder is something like 55 fps. Does that type of speed justify it? Also, if I am to understand some of you, you are saying I can take my standard 38spc shells and measure the powder to +p right? If so, why doesn't everyone do it? - I like shooting +p better than standard myself.

October 17, 2001, 02:02 AM	#16
Jager1 Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 422	I use them interchangeably and have not suffered any problems. I can imagine that problems may be encountered if loading to the high side of the +P scale using mixed brass, especially after repeated firings. As the astute here have already mentioned, manufacturers do have different specs for their brass. I have loaded .38 +P 158 grain RNL at 1,000 fps into mixed .38 and 38 +P casings several times over and have yet to see a detrimental effect or any sign that would indicate caution be exercised. These rounds are fired in either a S&W Model 66 .357 w/4" bbl or a Colt Trooper MKIII .357 4" bbl for proofing.

October 17, 2001, 07:48 AM	#17
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	+P vs "other" .38 Brass The problem I was referring to was NOT the issue of using "non +P" brass to reload "heavy (+P)" loads. I do not build heavy loads, quite the contrary. The phenomina I have noticed is that +P (and +P+) brass "wrinkle/bulge" where the base of the bullet winds up after being seated and crimped. When "non +P brass DO NOT > using the self same die adjustments and bullets (i.e. varying only the brass). Leading me to suspect that there is something different dimensionwise about the Brass itself between "normal" and "+P" brass. . __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

October 18, 2001, 11:42 PM	#18
hebejebe Member Join Date: September 19, 2001 Posts: 29	For what it's worth Two observations; 1) Just checked Speer reloading manual #13. Same case specified for 38 and 38+P loads - 'Speer'. Also, under 38, they touch on the +P developement but say nothing about case differences, which leads to.. 2) The people who pioneered the 357 and 44 Mags didn't have Mag or +P cases to work with; they worked with the Special cases loaded to higher pressures in stronger guns. Sooooo.......

October 19, 2001, 01:12 AM	#19
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	hebejebe.... And some of the folks loadin stoutish .38spec and .44spec preferred the thinner balloon head brass cause it would hold more of the slower powders necessary without hangin the bullets out of the case so far. Don't shoot any of that stuff in your J, K, or L frames. Or better yet, just don't do it. Mags are cheap now, you don't have to build your own by overstuffin. I think what renaissance has encountered is thicker brass in HIS +P cases, causing the bulge. Sam

October 19, 2001, 09:15 AM	#20
hebejebe Member Join Date: September 19, 2001 Posts: 29	C.R.Sam I wasn't implying one should be indiscrimate in using 38 Special loads, only that there are no differences in the cases (other than dif's between manufacturers.) The +P designation was adopted to warn people 'not for use in guns not meant to use them', and if'n ya don't know, don't use. I agree that if you want 357 performance, use a 357, period. As a wise man once said (W.C. Fields?) 'No sense in being a damn fool about it.'

October 21, 2001, 07:03 AM	#21
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	renaissance7697, I'm not sure I buy that mfg's are against us reloading. Quite the contrary. I believe mafg's, with a few exceptions, tend to cater to the reloader. If what you're saying were true, then far more of them would used crimped primers, aluminum cases or sopme other means to discourage reloading.