Stainless media, cobb or ultrasonic......

[TheDutchman19]

Taking cost out of the equation, what are the pros and cons for the different types of brass cleaning for your long range rifle brass? I currently use Lyman's green media with good results. A friend of mine uses stainless steel in a tumbler. His brass looks like a piece of jewelry, both inside and out.
Does stainless upset the neck that we work so hard the make uniform? Is ultrasonic cleaning a good option for cleaning the inside of the brass?

[the led farmer]

Originally Posted by TheDutchman19

...
Does stainless upset the neck that we work so hard the make uniform?...

Not even a little bit, they really gently glide around and scour the brass clean inside and out including primer pockets. Nothing but water, dish soap and a squirt of citric acid needed. Could probably get away with water only.

The dirty ( incredibly dirty) water goes right down the sink, which I like. None of that dirty carbon is left around.

[TheDutchman19]

I failed to mention, that I am wanting to upgrade my brass cleaning program. I am trying to decide which direction to go, stainless or ultrasonic.

[Panfisher]

I will admit to not having used an ultrasonic cleaner, but have switched to stainless wet tumbling foe heavy cleaning. I have not by any means quit using my Lyman vibratory cleaner. I deprime (universal depriming die), then dump the cases I to the wet tumbler and run anywhere from a couple hours to overnight depending on when I start it, then rinse and dry the cases. Next is resizing and then into the Lyman for a few hours to remove the case lube and give a polish as I add a little Car wax to the media. After they are ready to store or load. I will say I like the stainless wet tumbling but truthfully can't compare it to ultrasonic since I haven't tried ultrasonic.

[Negative Investment]

Stainless pins is the way to go. Obviously all of them work well, but if you want your brass as shiny on the inside (primer pocket included) as the outside corncob or an ultrasonic isn't going to do it. I still use my dry tumbler, but that is only when I am pressed for time. People seem to complain about drying the brass, but honestly it is not that much of a hassle and if you need it quick 165 degrees in the oven for 20 minutes will take care of that.

[TMD]

I have a media and an ultrasonic cleaner. Quit using the media a few years ago when I got the ultrasonic. They may not be pretty but are clean in minutes instead of hours. I'm sure one of these days I will get a tumbler and stainless pins and when that day come the ultrasonic will probably go on the back shelf with the other one.

[Negative Investment]

Essentially:

Corn Cob = Very shiny outside, inside still fouled(2+ hour run time)
Walnut = Clean outside, inside still fouled (not that shiny, 2+ hour run time)
Ultrasonic = clean everywhere, not that shiny(30 minute run time, wet cleanup)
Stainless Steel Pins = shiny everywhere, essentially spotless (2+ hour run,wet cleanup)

[TheDutchman19]

So it sounds like most folks prefer a stainless tumbler over a ultrasonic cleaner

[cryogenic419]

My take on it all

Traditional vibrating tumbling with corncob or walnut does OK at cleaning and honestly I think is probably more than sufficient for most peoples purposes. Flashholes don't get cleaned out and the inside of bottleneck cases really don't get clean at all. Can be a bit dusty at times. I think this does a better job of polishing than it does cleaning, but the process does both at the same time. Cases that are tumbled tend to not tarnish up as quick if just left sitting for 6 months. Requires the least amount of work to clean cases and get the media separated from it. Depending on how much brass you have to clean and how dirty it is from the start, media may not last too long. Luckily media and its additives are relatively inexpensive. Tumbling times can vary depending on how much brass, how dirty it is, how new the media is, and any additives you have in the media.

Ultrasonic does really well at cleaning cases, you are going to need to decap the brass in order to get clean primer pockets. Some units are more powerful than others so times will vary. Some cleaners will max out at 50 .308 cases or less while others will let you get more in the cleaner before cleaning power degrades noticeably, so if you are looking to clean a ton of brass this isn't always the fastest method. My cleaner was decent enough and I was able to clean cases really well in about 30-40 minutes total just to give you an idea on time. Doesn't require media, instead needs a solution mixed into the water. Lots of options out there as far as commercial and homebrew solutions go. Cases are clean to be sure, but clean does not always equal shiny or polished looking. Some people like a shiny case, so this may be a huge con for them. The cases need rinsed and dried after then cleaning. No media to separate just rinse, which helps speed things up. Because you are cleaning down to bare brass expect the cases to tarnish slightly over time.

Wet tumbling with SS pins. You need to decap if you want clean primer pockets. All units have a limit as to how much total weight can be loaded into the drum which is going to dictate how much brass can be cleaned at one time.
You are going to need the SS pin media, commercial or homebrew cleaning solution, some way to separate the brass from the media, and possibly a magnet designed for picking up loose pins. Of the 3 methods I think this one is probably the most labor intensive but the results justify the extra work. Cases are as clean as ultrasonic and come out shiny. Again because you are going down to bare brass expect the cases to tarnish over time. A good media separator will make all the difference in the world. I prefer the one that Frankford Arsenal sells that is a bucket filled with water and a rotating basket, it seems to work the quickest in getting those pins of out the brass. Brass needs to be dried afterwards. I have run once fired 5.56 brass that looks like the range was located in a muddy swamp for 3 hours and it come out pristine. Everything else I run for 2 hours or less depending on the amount of brass. Of the 3 methods I think this one comes the closest to making brass looking brand new. The biggest pro with this method is even if you have really tarnished and neglected brass that most folks would just leaving laying on the ground you can make them look brand new.

The SS pins don't seem to affect the neck as far as work hardening goes.

One thing I have noticed between the different methods is some of my pistol cases that were dry tumbled did not require any lube when resizing, now require lube if I clean them in the ultrasonic or wet SS pins. Its more of a lube every 10 cases or so, its not a huge deal I just attributed that to the cases being totally clean and not getting any sort of lubrication from the tumbling polish/additive.

An added benefit to ultrasonic cleaners is you can use them for more than just brass cases. If you are an AR shooter they can make quick work of cleaning the BCG or other gun parts that get really bad carbon buildup.

[axismatt]

I am so surprised that some folks still do any sort of cleaning BEFORE de-capping. It should be the first process, as you not only remove a good portion of the filth before cleaning, you also get a first visual inspection of your cases. Also, some people say they vibe-clean the brass after sizing to remove the lube. WHY??? Unless you're using that thick, greasy stuff, the lube makes every stage run smoother and reduced friction so all tools last longer and stay tighter. One-Shot folks! It's a blessing.

The debate on cleaning goes on and on, and you'll never get some folks to agree on anything other than THEIR WAY. In my opinion...

1. de-cap
2. stainless tumble with just a smidge (like a thimble full) of liquid soap of any kind. Also, just a tiny pinch of lemme-shine. When you buy the kit from STI, it comes with a pouch of lemme-shine. I have cleaned tens of thousands of cases and maybe used half of the little pouch. Less is more with both soap and Lemme-Shine. DO NOT tumble too long. Your tumbler design will determine the best duration (based on how well the tumble agitates), but any more than 2 hours is likely too long. When I made the mistake of wet tumbling for around 5 hours, the brass came out a bit tarnished.
3. once dry, a quick, light spray of one-shot is more than enough lube for rifle or pistol cases. Most folks say they don't need lube for carbide dies, but I find that a touch of lube makes the entire process run smooooth.

Once you've got finished cartridges, THAT is when I like to do a quick vibe-clean in some corncob or walnut. Just 15-20 minutes is enough. This removes all lube, fingerprints, and any residual tarnish from the the exterior of the cartridge and the result is beautiful, shiny, smooth-feeding ammo that will stay clean longer, and impress your friends.

[Panfisher]

Matt I use one shot but am curious as to what stages other than resizing benefit from lube on the cases? It may make a difference that I only use a single stage press, but can't see how lube would benefit priming, charging, bullet seating etc. Nothing else creates any friction. Not arguing just wondering if there is something I am missing.

[Kountzer0]

I've always tumbled in walnut with some additives after de-capping, recently started using dryer sheets or paper towel strips to help control dust and keep some crud out of the walnut. My primer pockets are even clean after about an hour in the tumbler. I'm not sure why mine get clean enough when other people don't though, and I'm not after highly polished bright brass either. they come out clean and matte and i'm ok with that.

I also make my own lube with lanolin and IPA, after some experiments, I got the mix right for my process and just roll the cases in a flat bottomed container . This works well in my dies and I don't feel the need to clean the brass after lube either, there just isn't enough lube on the cases.

I understand some folks like shiny brass, and are going to store longer term than I do. I just never proved to myself a need to go any farther based on performance etc.

Great forum by the way. Thank you all!

[highrolls]

I always used to wonder when I would read about questions concerning how to tell when a primer pocket is too loose. Now that I have some experience with the stainless steel pin cleaning method, I wonder no more. After several thousand cases, both pistol and rifle, I now know what a loose primer pocket is. But I do not know why. All the cases I have cleaned with the pins were once fired, various makes.

My technique was to clean with corn cob media in a vibrator, then de-cap the old primers, then throw in the pin solution for a couple hours. Yes, brass comes out sparkling after two hours. However, I now find that one and sometimes two out of every hundred cases have loose primer pockets. I mean LOOSE. No resistance, primer goes in, I check to be sure a primer was actually in the cup as NO FEEL AT ALL, and primer falls back out, literally. This has happened with 380 auto, 9 mm, 38 spl/357 mag, and 223 rifle so far. Not so with 45 auto, 45 colt, 44 Mag, 30-30 win. The large primers do not seem to be affected, or afflicted may be a better term.

No idea why this is, but my solution to this problem has been to cease de-capping the primers for small primer cases. Now I throw them in the stainless media, clean and shiny, then de-cap. Treat this de-capped brass to a primer pocket uniformer, which is good but not super shiny like the prior technique.

Am I the only one having this experience with stainless cleaning media ?

[the led farmer]

I don't have any experience with what you are talking about, but I would say there is no way the pins are causing loose primer pockets if that what you're referring to.

[TMD]

However, I now find that one and sometimes two out of every hundred cases have loose primer pockets. I mean LOOSE. No resistance, primer goes in, I check to be sure a primer was actually in the cup as NO FEEL AT ALL, and primer falls back out, literally. This has happened with 380 auto, 9 mm, 38 spl/357 mag, and 223 rifle so far. Not so with 45 auto, 45 colt, 44 Mag, 30-30 win. The large primers do not seem to be affected, or afflicted may be a better term.

No idea why this is, but my solution to this problem has been to cease de-capping the primers for small primer cases. Now I throw them in the stainless media, clean and shiny, then de-cap. Treat this de-capped brass to a primer pocket uniformer, which is good but not super shiny like the prior technique.

Am I the only one having this experience with stainless cleaning media ?

Loose primer pockets are in no way caused by tumble cleaning with SS pins. Its from either cheap brass, too hot of a load, or has been reloaded too many times.

[schmellba99]

Cleaned with corncob/walnut in a vibratory tumbler for years. Works good - more than sufficient to keep the brass clean (and, more importantly to me - fouling, dirt, etc. out of dies, presses and guns).

Tried ultrasonic and, frankly, failed miserably at getting any results. Granted, I was using a jewelry cleaner as a test to see if it even worked, but it didn't for me. I have no use for it outside of maybe cleaning something like gun parts that will be much easier to clean this method versus by hand.

SSTL is the bee's knees. And if you use ArmorAll Wash-N-Wax instead of dish soap, you come out with a clean, shiny and slightly lubricated piece of brass. The wax coating does a couple of things - protects the brass against corrosion and acts as a lubricant that really makes working through your dies much easier.

SSTL will not work harden brass - it's more of a slush type consistency once you get the brass, pins, water, etc. in the tumbler. It also smooths out cases - I've noticed this with really tarnished/dirty cases. It will not loosen primer pockets either - they were loose before. You may not have noticed with vibratory tumbling because there was enough carbon in the primer pocket to provide friction/resistance, but it was still loose.

I still lube all rifle brass with the Dillon case lube (blue and red can work together!) and all pistol brass with Hornady One Shot dry lube.

[highrolls]

Note for TMD and the led farmer. Your comments reflect what I have received from the local shooters/reloaders who are familiar with SS pin cleaning media. So I threw it out here as well. I am not ready to conclude that the SS pins are causing this, however the circumstantial evidence so far is telling me to change my ways or suffer something I HAVE NEVER SEEN before, repeated loose primers.

I will start by responding to TMD's assertion. Define cheap brass. With once fired cases (I have access to a ready supply of brass that began life as factory rounds - which means what regarding "too hot a load" ?) In my early reloading days I used to push cases for many reloads. I have not done that for the last decade or so. I discard my brass after three reloads, whether rifle or pistol, period. But that is not applicable here, since I have yet to use the SS pins on ANYTHING except once-fired cases.

Even in the early days when I pushed cases to see how long they would last, I have not experienced a loose primer as I have since using the SS pins.

I have some questions for those who seem sure what I am inferring cannot be so. For the led farmer, how long have stainless pins been on the market as cleaning media for reloaders ? What is the long term history of this media which assures it has no side effects ? Seems to me that one difference is a fact. Unlike corncob media, the SS pins are certainly harder than brass.

For schmellba99, if the loose primers I am experiencing at the rate of 1-2 percent on factory ammo is the result of your suggestion, why have I never encountered a loose primer before ? I probable said that wrong.

Here is a repeatable observation I have made recently. Make a completely fresh solution of water, lemon shine pinch and dash of dawn, run for two hours with around 100 cases (brass) in the Thimbler's Tumbler with 5 # supplied bag of SS pins. Pour the used solution thru a standard quality lab filter paper and tell me the collected residue is NOT brass particles. They are fine enough to go thru an old T-shirt as a filter but they are there and they have to be comming from somewhere. My regular experiance with loose primer holes in ONCE FIRED, SS pin cleaned cases suggests this residue may be originating from the primer holes.

[the led farmer]

Here is a repeatable observation I have made recently. Make a completely fresh solution of water, lemon shine pinch and dash of dawn, run for two hours with around 100 cases (brass) in the Thimbler's Tumbler with 5 # supplied bag of SS pins. Pour the used solution thru a standard quality lab filter paper and tell me the collected residue is NOT brass particles. They are fine enough to go thru an old T-shirt as a filter but they are there and they have to be comming from somewhere. My regular experiance with loose primer holes in ONCE FIRED, SS pin cleaned cases suggests this residue may be originating from the primer holes.

i will certainly give this a whirl next time i tumble to check for brass particles, interesting.

you mentioned in a previous post you decap before wet tumbling, are you resizing as well or using a universal decapper? either way is it possible your die is shaving the brass you see in the filter? if you were to retumble cleaned brass and filter the water would you see brass particles? if you bypass wet tumbling all together and just use dry vibratory tumbling do you have the same loose pockets?

what kind of primers are you using? is it possible it is a primer problem and not a pocket problem? have you mic'd the brass with the loose pockets to see how they measure up? are all the loose pockets the same headstamp/caliber brass?

as far as how long wet tumbling brass has been around i couldn't say for sure, but i have not heard of (read) anything describing what you are describing so i would be leaning towards something else besides the pins. that being said i will definitely filter the water next time to see whats what

[highrolls]

Wow, great questions led farmer. Makes me think it over more, which is why I threw the puzzle out here to begin with. Since you are going to try the filter thing, I need to add some there to save you some trial and effort. First time I tried that I did not see the brass particulates, cause they stayed in the tumbler, mixed with the steel pins. The particles are tiny but weigh enough to settle to the bottom as soon as the slurry motion stops.

Plus I did not even suspect they were there until I started emptying the tumbler by rubber banding a piece of old T-shirt over the mouth (To stop the pins) then inverting the tumbler into a black plastic catch tub. Once I was sure no pins escaped into the catch tub, I would take it out to the garden and pour it out slowly. That's when I noticed some golden glitter in the bottom. Poured slowly, all the glitter remains in the catch tub while the water and carbon pour out. That glitter made it through a T-shirt so it is fine. Agitate the small amount of solution left then pour into a proper filter will catch the fine brass without all the carbon gunk there to hide it.

Now your questions. Until about two years ago, I have always cleaned brass in a vibrator with corn cob media, then re-size/de-cap and final vibrator clean with a touch of car polish, then prime, powder, and bullets. Two years ago I had been reading about the "new" stainless pin cleaning technique, having not been impressed with a friends experience with ultrasonics, I did decide to try the pins. To use them I replaced my second, post-decapping clean with wet SS pins versus the old car polish corn final clean. Also I use "de-capping" to mean removed primers, since I tend to use a universal de-capper for rifle cases but I de-cap with a re-sizing die for the pistols. So the last two years I have been running as just described. I would run several hundred cases, then dry and store until I get to the time for priming. I ran quite a few and stored prominently as I was greatly pleased with the final look the SS pins give. It was when I started priming the first super shiny lot that I started noticing loose primers. Maybe 18 months ago. After that, I started putting each separate load of tumbler cases in separate containers to get an idea on the primer hole fail rate. The primers I use are all CCI except I occasionally use Winchester for some large pistol applications. Hmm, well for small rifle 223 I use Remington 71/2 for bolt and CCI #41 for AR.

All priming failures were the same manner. Dillon press, did not feel like a primer was there, opps yes there is it just comes back out, change case, same primer feels right and goes in properly in new case but mark the loose case. All set aside marked cases will not hold a primer, I can drop them in with tweezers, turn case upright and primer falls right out. Cases are mixed as was the original cleaning stuff, mostly winchester, Lake City (223), remington, WCC, and PMC. To the best of my knowledge, all cases I have used SS pins on were once fired, brass per preceeding sentence. Some, like the Lake City 223 had crimped primers, which I swaged to remove crimps but these were cleaned with corncob media after swaging, before SS pins.

I have been reloading since the 70's. I have never encountered a "loose primer" before, which is why I began the earliest post above with that opening. Always wondered how you tell when a primer is too-loose. Now I know. Since I began using the SS pins with my once fired factory cases, I now have a collection of 29 cases which will not hold a primer at all, and thats out of around 2000 or so cases I have run through the pins. As in the first post above, mixed calibers, a few different case brands, and every one is a "small" primer. About 500 or so of the 2000 were large primers but all of those have primed properly. I am seeing a primer hole problem of close to 2 percent. None, absolute zero before the SS pin technique was added to my process.

Last comment, yes I know wet tumbling has been around a while but I only encountered use of SS pins a bit over two years ago. Also I have a possible more serious issue with SS pins but have not yet been able to reproduce the effect so that one I will not mention until I know more.

[schmellba99]

You are making some assumptions, pretty far reaching ones IMO.

1. The primer pocket is probably the most robust part of any case. The brass is thickest here when compared to other parts of the case.

2. That factory loads are not exceeding pressures. I'm assuming you are picking up 1x fired range brass - who knows what guns those were fired in? I've seen factory loads that pushed the pressure envelope in certain guns. It is not a regular occurrence, but certainly not unheard of.

3. That vibratory tumbling does not produce brass shavings.

4. That the brass shavings you are seeing are coming from the primer pockets.

We all see different things, but the physics of a slush like consistency of pins having enough effect on brass to open primer pockets, but not have any visible or adverse affect on a case mouth (which is generally the most susceptible to wear or damage) is just not something I can tie together to be honest.

I'm spitballing here, but my guess as to the source of the brass flakes you see is most likely from the sstl pins smoothing out burrs from either the case mouth or from the rims - most of the range brass i pick up usually has a ding or two on the side that hit the concrete when ejected from the rifle or pistol. Sometimes that burr or rough spot is enough that the brass won't fit into the shell plate, and I have noticed a decrease in the amount of brass that I toss during a loading session for this reason since my switch to SSTL. That could, without a doubt, be entirely luck. But I don't think it is, just like I don't think that even long periods of tumbling with SSTL will produce enough wear on a primer pocket to really open it up - much less to the point that you can't tell if a primer was ever seated or not.

[serf 'rett]

Got me wondering if the brass could also come from interior flash hole burr/flashing?

I'm easily 30K+ tumbled pieces in sst pins. Mostly pistol brass. All run with the same pins in a three pound Tumbler run at 90 to 120 minutes cycles. If the brass "flakes" were staying with the pins they should still be there due to the method I use to separate the pins and brass. Haven't noticed brass flakes, but will be looking.

[TMD]

I will start by responding to TMD's assertion. Define cheap brass. With once fired cases (I have access to a ready supply of brass that began life as factory rounds - which means what regarding "too hot a load" ?) In my early reloading days I used to push cases for many reloads. I have not done that for the last decade or so. I discard my brass after three reloads, whether rifle or pistol, period. But that is not applicable here, since I have yet to use the SS pins on ANYTHING except once-fired cases.

First before I go further, tossing brass after 3 reloads is IMHO a waste of brass. Even the hottest magnum loads are good for more than that.
Now to this ready supply of ONCE FIRED BRASS. There is no mention of manufacturer or if you purchased it all new.
Some manufacturers use once fired brass themselves, of this some may have originally had crimped primers in which case it is possible to over swedge the primer pocket causing a loose fit.
Not all manufacturers use the same quality brass so some is thinner that others.
Some manufacturers ammo is not all loaded equally so yes there may be a few per box that are hotter than normal.
These are just a few examples of what I was talking about.

[highrolls]

Before I get into what may be interpreted as an argument, let me just thank all the respondents so far. Your comments and questions are appreciated greatly and I really thank you all for your time and thought here. I feel that the ideas you are presenting all deserve an equally thoughtful response so I hope I can respond without leaving anyone out. I am not the best for wording things in posts so my intent is to gleen your ideas but not to imply they are adverse to me at all. And I probably said that wrong but the thank you is there, so focus on that.

First up, schmellba99. Thanks for you thoughts.

Yes I most likely messed up my assumptions so let me clarify them if I can. Something changed when I added SS pins to my reloading routines and not for the better. Since this change to my routines, I am encountering a problem I do not like, and one I have never seen before. While it is possible that this problem and the association with SS pins may be coincidental, as the problem continues there is the statistical add up of numbers that are pointing to a probability that the problem and the SS pins are related. As the numbers go up, so does the confidence level.

I agree the primer pocket is the thickest part of the case, but thickest is not the same as hardest. It is also the smallest diameter and it seems to me for the SS pins to be cleaning the pockets as well as the rest of the case, the pin slurry has a physical difference there, as my pins cannot get in there without being somewhat aligned with the hole, but not so anywhere else on the case. So well aligned that some pins get stuck in the flash hole, don't they ? If I observe a problem with the pockets, combined with a slurry cleaning physical difference in that location, is this a far reaching assumption or a logical place to examine ?

The factory load issue does not seem to be a factor for me, since issues I have heard about are so rare that I consider them statistically insignificant.

I know nothing about nor have I observed brass particulates associated with vibratory tumblers. Any idea of an easy way to check for that ?

I am not seeing brass shavings or brass flakes. It is fine enough to pass through a T-shirt filter, and the one time I let the catch tub dry in the sun, there was not much there but rubbing my finger across gave me the impression it was the feel of talcum powder. There was no feel of granularity at all.

Next, serf'rett. You got me wondering too.

Would there be an easy way to tell if the flash hole were the source ? Remembering after a corn cob clean, the inside and flash hole are still pretty gunked up from my vibrator.

TMD again Thanks a second time.

When I began reloading, I used to document tests and case lots for durability. With 9mm for instance, I could go between 17 and 20 reloads before having to reject cases, using old Hercules rather than Alliant Unique. Nowdays I am so fortunate that I have enough of a brass supply that I rarely even push to a third reload. For example, I just received a bunch of federal cases, once fired and still in the factory boxes. Saves me having to store them when reloaded. This from a family of avid shooters, not re-loaders, who tend to go out of town a lot and they leave me to take care of their horses when they go. In return I get all their brass delivered in the original boxes. Another example is that when I say discard, I did not mean the sense you implied with "tossing" the brass. I still keep meticulous records on my brass, and when discarded from my bench, I corn cob clean and pass the brass and records down to others whom I trust and they in return...so it goes. Over time, most re-loaders I have known are great folks and develop innovative scavaging skills so to speak. I could make a whole post on how interpersonal relationships between re-loaders can bootstrap you up to having more brass than you can keep up with, and already inspected etc..

I do have a question on your stated opinion about discarding brass after three reloads is a waste of brass. Would you say the same thing about 30-06 used in a Garand or 308 in a match rifle ? I admit my good fortune now extends to all calibers I load for but I never pushed the above two examples even when brass was scarce.

I use the Dillon swager and have yet to see what you referred to as an over-swedge, except a case or two buggered when I was learning to operate it.

I have lately began a lot of testing with a chronometer and I have enough results to say that it seems that ammo manufactures have significantly improved the quality control and performance of their ammo in the last ten years or so. Such testing also gives me an additional source of known, once-fired cases.