What is your fighting style?

ronin308 · March 26, 2002, 04:23 PM

What is everyone's fighting style? Elaborate if you picked "None of the above" or "combination of the above". Feel free to list the specific style that you study as well.

ronin308 · March 26, 2002, 04:31 PM

BTW I voted "All of the Above". I've studied all of them but my primary methods rely on the strange combination of all the techniques that my body has learned.

Spectre · March 26, 2002, 04:38 PM

How old does an art have to be to be "traditional"? Many of the popular fighting styles are less than 300 years old, and therefore, not "traditional" to the purist.

Betty · March 26, 2002, 04:55 PM

I haven't formally learned any fighting art, and haven't gotten into a fistfight since high school or into anything really nasty beyond my older brother and me butting heads.

I couldn't resist posting when I saw "Skull Crusher", because it reminded me of when my psycho ex-boyfriend told me about a nasty fight he got into in a barroom bathroom. The other guy dragged him over to the toilet and dashed his jaw to pieces on the bowl.

His jaw and nerves were damaged badly, and when the doctors "rewired" him, they somehow crisscrossed the "wires" that control his sweat and salivary glands on his cheek. When he chews food, he sweats insted of salivates, and when he gets hot, he salivates instead of sweats. Mildly entertaining to watch.

boris_01 · March 26, 2002, 06:02 PM

I am a combination. I've trained in - Ishin ryu karate- American combat Jujitsu- Boxing- Muay thai- Judo. I gravitate to Muay Thai, boxing and Jujitsu. Hated Karate and judo. Too structured and rooted in tradition. I don't want to waste half my training time doing katas and bowing to everything. Although I did pick up some valuable techniques and experience from them. I just would rather train in reality based styles. Where you actually make contact and use techniques geared for actual combat. I don't get into the spiritual mumbo jumbo, using outdated, traditional weapons or into breaking boards and bricks. I want tested and proven techniques. Tested in sparring and proven in successful application in sparring and or competition. And don't reply and hound me about competition is not reality. I know that. But it is a good avenue for practicing against an unwilling opponent in a controlled environment without the threat of death or serious injury.( Hopefully.) I understand that there are techniques that would be used in a real situation that are not allowed in competition. But practice the ones that are allowed so you may become fluent.

KSFreeman · March 26, 2002, 06:05 PM

runt, O.K., let's see if I can top that? [thinking--smoke smell] When I was a LEO I did a case involving a psycho boyfriend and a young woman living in an apartment. He came storming over to the apartment like they all do, kicks in the door like they all do, rips out the phone like they all do, "tries to talk" to her like they all do, and then . . . . rips off her artificial leg and starts beating her with it!

Mere lacerations and contusions, no rewiring needed.

Yikes, I've not answered Dan's post. I have a style, it's very chic and European. It's called running away. I think it's been around since the time of the pharohs (at least Ramsey).

ronin308 · March 26, 2002, 06:27 PM

KSFreeman-

That's harsh...I don't think I could beat a woman at all, especially with her own leg

Runt- LOL!! I can see it in my head now...

Scix · March 26, 2002, 07:02 PM

I chose "Traditional Arts", though I don't think I fit exactly into the category. I spent a few years learning Isshin Ryu karate. However, the Shihan of the dojo was a street fighter, not a "Martial Artist". We covered the fundamentals and katas of Isshin Ryu, but all of the real training was focused on taking the other guy down as fast and hard as possible.
About a year after I left, the Shihan officially changed his teaching to "Isshin Jutsu", which is definitely not one of the traditional arts.

Technically, I'm a student of Isshin Ryu, but it's actually Isshin Jutsu.

ronin308 · March 26, 2002, 07:47 PM

Spectre- To answer your question: I'm defining "traditional" as any of the arts that have been derived before or during the early 20th century. I know that is late but I'm defining it that way for the sake of my poll. For example I consider Aikido to be a "traditional" art. Even though Morihei was around during the 20th century. My memory escapes me...what art do you train in? You've told us before but I forget

Spectre · March 26, 2002, 08:04 PM

Bujutsu through the Jinenkan organization. I count myself fortunate to have been assigned to WA, since there is a dojo in the state! (Spartacus traveled 185 miles each way, usually 2x a month, to train in Atlanta for about the last 4 years.)

You're right, it is kind of nebulous, isn't it? I suppose the difference being more one of how formal one is with the students. I believe this was mostly a result of Japanese militarism in the 1800's, more than a natural way of teaching the arts.

Skorzeny · March 26, 2002, 08:22 PM

Spectre:

Did Marcelo Alonso ever give a "seminar" there?

Skorzeny

Spectre · March 26, 2002, 08:32 PM

Not to my knowledge. Jinenkan schools are typically very careful about only teaching what Fumio Manaka has put out. OTOH, while I was training with Bud Malstrom, he had Kevin (MAD DOG) and Kathy Long do a knife fighting seminar there (email me if you want more detail on the results). I haven't had the chance to do any training in WA yet, since I just made it out of ITB training at Benning Friday. I should be flying into Ft. Lewis on the 10th.

woodland · March 26, 2002, 09:25 PM

SCARS
I know, I've heard all the opinions, but I've looked at many different styles, and this is what I believe is the best one. And that's just my opinion.

Tamara · March 26, 2002, 09:28 PM

Plan A: Run.

Plan B: If something makes me scared enough to run and my escape is somehow thwarted, there may be a shootin'.

DaveK · March 26, 2002, 09:43 PM

I took tae kwon do as a child, wing tsun in high school, and a general sort of no-rules chinese kung fu thing by way of Laos in college.

So I wimped out on the survey and just said "a combination," albeit of a more eastern bent.

The big question for me has always been how does one make the more flashy aspects of these arts actually work in a fight.

The main knowledge I have picked up in various martial art schools is that of my own limitations as to what very few techniques I even have the physical ability to perform, let alone effectively. Deficiencies is my own level of flexibility and coordination have meant that I have been exposed to a number of techniques, especially kicking techniques, that I simply can not use effectively by any stretch of the imagination.

Always wanted to take some boxing, maybe will do so in the very near future as I will soon be getting ridiculously old to be getting started in something like that.

Somewhat off topic-I have been searching the internet to find the actual rules of today's No Holds Barred competitions with little success. Would anyone be able to explain them to me or direct me to a site that could? All I have been able to discover so far is that it involves a decent amount of wrestling.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Dave

ronin308 · March 26, 2002, 10:08 PM

Tamara- I agree with you on Plan A. But for Plan B I differ since I cannot legally carry a firearm yet in IN. I can carry either my ASP or some of my knives here though. According to school policy, I can't even carry these on campus

So I guess I'd better practice to be a halfway decent pugilist

Spectre- That's really cool you have the opportunity to study Bujutsu. I had to quit doing Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido when I came to college. There's no school here

Also I went to the Aikido club here and wound up highly dissatisfied. There are many MA schools here but its mostly of your candy coated University-friendly type of stuff. Its tough to pursue traditional type arts when you have to keep moving around the country! My main MA preoccupations consist of me trying to not lose the things that my body has learned.

C.R.Sam · March 26, 2002, 10:20 PM

Plan A, avoid.
Plan b, use combination of poll choices as appropriate.

Training; service boxing (Army and Navy), assortment of hand to hand combat courses over a full military carrear. Both empty hand and armed. Most of the training was non-art, in that the goal was to take out the opponant with the first move. That failing then to prevail by whatever means.

Even Musashi was a firm believer in winning with the first move, firearm at distance, then long sword, then short sword as appropriate. Staff, rock or whatever was at hand. Make do or die.

The primary weapon is the mind. Situational awareness is your life jacket.

Sam

therookie · March 26, 2002, 10:35 PM

I've taken Jiu-Jitsu, Hwarang-Do, and Shotokan... but if a fight broke out, I'm grabbing a random weapon, be it at pool cue, fire extinguisher, etc.... That is if I can't run like hell first....

JFucile · March 26, 2002, 10:43 PM

I'm with C.R.Sam on this one.

Trained in a small amount of martial arts when I was young followed by armed and unarmed combat training in the Corps. Top that off with a large amount of anything goes street / bar fights and mix well.

Question is why does a guy that has absolutely no qualms about smacking his girlfriend / wife around curl up into a fetal position and piss themselves when looked at sideways by someone who can put up a decent defense ?

In the words of my Marine instructor - If the fight lasts longer then 3 seconds you're taking too damn long.

Daniel · March 27, 2002, 05:57 AM

First style: Mind-Fu.

Second: Run-Fu.

Third: Tong Long Kung-Fu. (Southern Mantis.)

shy_man · March 27, 2002, 07:57 AM

I combined karate, Judo, hapkido, stick fighting (Arnis) and the basic western punches. I've got only 1st dan black belt in all of the above but for now, I only use the basic for self defense, as in all fight I use my common sense to get in or just withdraw from it.

ATeaM · March 27, 2002, 07:57 AM

I just start laughing hysterically then I kick them in the nuts.

LawDog · March 27, 2002, 11:08 PM

Nike-fu. Backed up with chair-fu, branch-fu, cue-fu and gun-fu.

Teriary back-up with a little judo, some arnis and some kick-boxing.

LawDog

Hemicuda · March 28, 2002, 08:04 AM

Like Mr. Miagi said in Karate Kid - Bets way to take punch is no be there...

Run away, as there is no reason totake a punch... and what the heck was I doing letting someone get close enough topunch me anyway?

milcaztra · March 28, 2002, 09:22 AM

Lol. This is a fun thread ....... a lot of good advice and experiences coming out. Runt, that's a pretty funny story ....... this guy sounds like someone I definitely aspire not to meet.

There's an old Chinese martial arts saying that translates to: "first, mind; second, body; third, technique." This is one of the simplest but truest dcotrines I've ever heard.

Awareness, determination, aggressiveness, etc. -- the mental game -- are the most important factors in "conflict management." Knowing when to run and when to fight are pretty important, as are knowing the Use of Force laws in your state.

Body is about as important -- most people tire out after 30 seconds or so of full-tilt combat. Endurance, strong legs, and developed mid-section are a must.

Technique should bring it all together with some degree of focus. I've studied, on and off (mostly off), a little TKD, Aikido, Kendo, Okinawan Karate, Krav, and Muay Thai. What would I do in a fight? Beat feet.

Given extremely limited training time, I'd rather spend it running or lifting weights, with some Krav Maga and Muay Thai training. I have a friend whose a former national wu shu champion in the PRC -- he likes Muay Thai as a pure combat system. The "old" arts are great in some contexts, but I got tired of sifting through extraneous material. I really like the "modern" systems that focus on simple, gross muscle movements.

View Poll Results: What is your fighting style?
Traditional Asian Arts (TKD, Ju-Jitsu, Judo, Kenpo, etc.)	8	14.81%
Traditional Western Arts (Boxing, Wrestling, etc.)	1	1.85%
Modern Fighting Techniques (Krav Maga, Marine combat, etc.)	5	9.26%
Skull Crusher (Barfighter, been in fights so you do what worked, etc.)	3	5.56%
All of the Above	1	1.85%
None of the Above	7	12.96%
Combination of the Above	29	53.70%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

March 26, 2002, 04:23 PM	#1
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	What is your fighting style? What is everyone's fighting style? Elaborate if you picked "None of the above" or "combination of the above". Feel free to list the specific style that you study as well. __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

March 26, 2002, 04:31 PM	#2
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	BTW I voted "All of the Above". I've studied all of them but my primary methods rely on the strange combination of all the techniques that my body has learned. __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

March 26, 2002, 06:05 PM	#6
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	runt, O.K., let's see if I can top that? [thinking--smoke smell] When I was a LEO I did a case involving a psycho boyfriend and a young woman living in an apartment. He came storming over to the apartment like they all do, kicks in the door like they all do, rips out the phone like they all do, "tries to talk" to her like they all do, and then . . . . rips off her artificial leg and starts beating her with it! Mere lacerations and contusions, no rewiring needed. Yikes, I've not answered Dan's post. I have a style, it's very chic and European. It's called running away. I think it's been around since the time of the pharohs (at least Ramsey). __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

March 26, 2002, 06:27 PM	#7
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	KSFreeman- That's harsh...I don't think I could beat a woman at all, especially with her own leg Runt- LOL!! I can see it in my head now... __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

March 26, 2002, 04:38 PM	#3
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	How old does an art have to be to be "traditional"? Many of the popular fighting styles are less than 300 years old, and therefore, not "traditional" to the purist.

March 26, 2002, 04:55 PM	#4
Betty Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2000 Location: southern U.S. Posts: 1,807	I haven't formally learned any fighting art, and haven't gotten into a fistfight since high school or into anything really nasty beyond my older brother and me butting heads. I couldn't resist posting when I saw "Skull Crusher", because it reminded me of when my psycho ex-boyfriend told me about a nasty fight he got into in a barroom bathroom. The other guy dragged him over to the toilet and dashed his jaw to pieces on the bowl. His jaw and nerves were damaged badly, and when the doctors "rewired" him, they somehow crisscrossed the "wires" that control his sweat and salivary glands on his cheek. When he chews food, he sweats insted of salivates, and when he gets hot, he salivates instead of sweats. Mildly entertaining to watch.

March 26, 2002, 06:02 PM	#5
boris_01 Member Join Date: November 14, 2001 Location: N.C. Posts: 61	I am a combination. I've trained in - Ishin ryu karate- American combat Jujitsu- Boxing- Muay thai- Judo. I gravitate to Muay Thai, boxing and Jujitsu. Hated Karate and judo. Too structured and rooted in tradition. I don't want to waste half my training time doing katas and bowing to everything. Although I did pick up some valuable techniques and experience from them. I just would rather train in reality based styles. Where you actually make contact and use techniques geared for actual combat. I don't get into the spiritual mumbo jumbo, using outdated, traditional weapons or into breaking boards and bricks. I want tested and proven techniques. Tested in sparring and proven in successful application in sparring and or competition. And don't reply and hound me about competition is not reality. I know that. But it is a good avenue for practicing against an unwilling opponent in a controlled environment without the threat of death or serious injury.( Hopefully.) I understand that there are techniques that would be used in a real situation that are not allowed in competition. But practice the ones that are allowed so you may become fluent.

March 26, 2002, 07:02 PM	#8
Scix Member Join Date: February 20, 2002 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 41	I chose "Traditional Arts", though I don't think I fit exactly into the category. I spent a few years learning Isshin Ryu karate. However, the Shihan of the dojo was a street fighter, not a "Martial Artist". We covered the fundamentals and katas of Isshin Ryu, but all of the real training was focused on taking the other guy down as fast and hard as possible. About a year after I left, the Shihan officially changed his teaching to "Isshin Jutsu", which is definitely not one of the traditional arts. Technically, I'm a student of Isshin Ryu, but it's actually Isshin Jutsu.

March 26, 2002, 07:47 PM	#9
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	Spectre- To answer your question: I'm defining "traditional" as any of the arts that have been derived before or during the early 20th century. I know that is late but I'm defining it that way for the sake of my poll. For example I consider Aikido to be a "traditional" art. Even though Morihei was around during the 20th century. My memory escapes me...what art do you train in? You've told us before but I forget __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

March 26, 2002, 08:04 PM	#10
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Bujutsu through the Jinenkan organization. I count myself fortunate to have been assigned to WA, since there is a dojo in the state! (Spartacus traveled 185 miles each way, usually 2x a month, to train in Atlanta for about the last 4 years.) You're right, it is kind of nebulous, isn't it? I suppose the difference being more one of how formal one is with the students. I believe this was mostly a result of Japanese militarism in the 1800's, more than a natural way of teaching the arts.

March 26, 2002, 08:22 PM	#11
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Spectre: Did Marcelo Alonso ever give a "seminar" there? Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

March 26, 2002, 08:32 PM	#12
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Not to my knowledge. Jinenkan schools are typically very careful about only teaching what Fumio Manaka has put out. OTOH, while I was training with Bud Malstrom, he had Kevin (MAD DOG) and Kathy Long do a knife fighting seminar there (email me if you want more detail on the results). I haven't had the chance to do any training in WA yet, since I just made it out of ITB training at Benning Friday. I should be flying into Ft. Lewis on the 10th.

March 26, 2002, 09:25 PM	#13
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	SCARS I know, I've heard all the opinions, but I've looked at many different styles, and this is what I believe is the best one. And that's just my opinion.

March 26, 2002, 09:28 PM	#14
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Plan A: Run. Plan B: If something makes me scared enough to run and my escape is somehow thwarted, there may be a shootin'. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

March 26, 2002, 09:43 PM	#15
DaveK Member Join Date: December 4, 2001 Location: Arizona Posts: 90	I took tae kwon do as a child, wing tsun in high school, and a general sort of no-rules chinese kung fu thing by way of Laos in college. So I wimped out on the survey and just said "a combination," albeit of a more eastern bent. The big question for me has always been how does one make the more flashy aspects of these arts actually work in a fight. The main knowledge I have picked up in various martial art schools is that of my own limitations as to what very few techniques I even have the physical ability to perform, let alone effectively. Deficiencies is my own level of flexibility and coordination have meant that I have been exposed to a number of techniques, especially kicking techniques, that I simply can not use effectively by any stretch of the imagination. Always wanted to take some boxing, maybe will do so in the very near future as I will soon be getting ridiculously old to be getting started in something like that. Somewhat off topic-I have been searching the internet to find the actual rules of today's No Holds Barred competitions with little success. Would anyone be able to explain them to me or direct me to a site that could? All I have been able to discover so far is that it involves a decent amount of wrestling. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -Dave

March 26, 2002, 10:08 PM	#16
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Posts: 1,977	Tamara- I agree with you on Plan A. But for Plan B I differ since I cannot legally carry a firearm yet in IN. I can carry either my ASP or some of my knives here though. According to school policy, I can't even carry these on campus So I guess I'd better practice to be a halfway decent pugilist Spectre- That's really cool you have the opportunity to study Bujutsu. I had to quit doing Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido when I came to college. There's no school here Also I went to the Aikido club here and wound up highly dissatisfied. There are many MA schools here but its mostly of your candy coated University-friendly type of stuff. Its tough to pursue traditional type arts when you have to keep moving around the country! My main MA preoccupations consist of me trying to not lose the things that my body has learned. __________________ If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara desert in five years there’d be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

March 26, 2002, 10:20 PM	#17
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Plan A, avoid. Plan b, use combination of poll choices as appropriate. Training; service boxing (Army and Navy), assortment of hand to hand combat courses over a full military carrear. Both empty hand and armed. Most of the training was non-art, in that the goal was to take out the opponant with the first move. That failing then to prevail by whatever means. Even Musashi was a firm believer in winning with the first move, firearm at distance, then long sword, then short sword as appropriate. Staff, rock or whatever was at hand. Make do or die. The primary weapon is the mind. Situational awareness is your life jacket. Sam

March 26, 2002, 10:35 PM	#18
therookie Member Join Date: February 15, 2002 Posts: 72	I've taken Jiu-Jitsu, Hwarang-Do, and Shotokan... but if a fight broke out, I'm grabbing a random weapon, be it at pool cue, fire extinguisher, etc.... That is if I can't run like hell first....

March 26, 2002, 10:43 PM	#19
JFucile Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2002 Location: Socialist Republic of Minnesota Posts: 160	I'm with C.R.Sam on this one. Trained in a small amount of martial arts when I was young followed by armed and unarmed combat training in the Corps. Top that off with a large amount of anything goes street / bar fights and mix well. Question is why does a guy that has absolutely no qualms about smacking his girlfriend / wife around curl up into a fetal position and piss themselves when looked at sideways by someone who can put up a decent defense ? In the words of my Marine instructor - If the fight lasts longer then 3 seconds you're taking too damn long. __________________ "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us that someone might be looking" "The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-by to the Bill of Rights." -H.L. Mencken

March 27, 2002, 05:57 AM	#20
Daniel Member Join Date: May 27, 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 88	First style: Mind-Fu. Second: Run-Fu. Third: Tong Long Kung-Fu. (Southern Mantis.)

March 27, 2002, 07:57 AM	#21
shy_man Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2001 Location: Valenzuela City, Metro Manila, Philippines Posts: 366	I combined karate, Judo, hapkido, stick fighting (Arnis) and the basic western punches. I've got only 1st dan black belt in all of the above but for now, I only use the basic for self defense, as in all fight I use my common sense to get in or just withdraw from it.

March 27, 2002, 07:57 AM	#22
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	I just start laughing hysterically then I kick them in the nuts.

March 27, 2002, 11:08 PM	#23
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	Nike-fu. Backed up with chair-fu, branch-fu, cue-fu and gun-fu. Teriary back-up with a little judo, some arnis and some kick-boxing. LawDog __________________ "The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer." --The 13th Warrior Bona na Croin The LawDog Files

March 28, 2002, 08:04 AM	#24
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Like Mr. Miagi said in Karate Kid - Bets way to take punch is no be there... Run away, as there is no reason totake a punch... and what the heck was I doing letting someone get close enough topunch me anyway? __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

March 28, 2002, 09:22 AM	#25
milcaztra Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 116	i'm a lover, not a fighter Lol. This is a fun thread ....... a lot of good advice and experiences coming out. Runt, that's a pretty funny story ....... this guy sounds like someone I definitely aspire not to meet. There's an old Chinese martial arts saying that translates to: "first, mind; second, body; third, technique." This is one of the simplest but truest dcotrines I've ever heard. Awareness, determination, aggressiveness, etc. -- the mental game -- are the most important factors in "conflict management." Knowing when to run and when to fight are pretty important, as are knowing the Use of Force laws in your state. Body is about as important -- most people tire out after 30 seconds or so of full-tilt combat. Endurance, strong legs, and developed mid-section are a must. Technique should bring it all together with some degree of focus. I've studied, on and off (mostly off), a little TKD, Aikido, Kendo, Okinawan Karate, Krav, and Muay Thai. What would I do in a fight? Beat feet. Given extremely limited training time, I'd rather spend it running or lifting weights, with some Krav Maga and Muay Thai training. I have a friend whose a former national wu shu champion in the PRC -- he likes Muay Thai as a pure combat system. The "old" arts are great in some contexts, but I got tired of sifting through extraneous material. I really like the "modern" systems that focus on simple, gross muscle movements.