Are all bullets created equal?

[spiderman]

Hello all, I am definately a newbie when it comes to reloading. I have all the stuff to get started but I was wondering if it is safe to assume that a 9mm 124gn FMJ manufactured by winchester would be loaded like one for example Speer? Looking at the Speer manual do I try to match COL for like bullet? This question has probably been asked numerous times, but I don't want to screw up! Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Mike

[SL1]

The important parameter is the "seating depth" of the bullet, as well as its weight. The seating depth is the distance that the bullet's base extends into the case below the case mouth. That determines how much volume is left inside the case for the powder, which has a LARGE effect on pressure in a small case like the 9mm.

So, the problem is that different bullets of the same weigh have different lengths, and that means different seating depths for the same cartridge overall length. If load data was pressure-tested with a 124 grain Winchester bullet, and you substitute a 124 grain Speer bullet at the same COL, they will not have the same pressure unless the two bullets have the same length. Especially in 9mm, this may not be the case, because 9mm bullets designed for the 9mm Lugar often have longer noses than 9mm bullets designed for other cartridges (especially the 357 Sig).

Unfortunately, most loading manuals give the COL that they tested and the manufacturer of the bullet, but not the bullet length. SO, it makes it hard to get the actual seating depth for the loads they tested unless you have one of the bullets that they used. Most of us don't. But, if you are lucky, you can ask here and somebody else on the forum may have the length of the bullet used in the data that you want to use. Then, if you want to use another bullet, you can measure the one you want to use, and adjust the COL of your load by the differnce in bullet lengths to make the seating depth the same as what was used in your data.

BUT, sometimes cartridges with your bullet at that seating depth / COL just won't feed properly in YOUR gun. So, you need to adjust the COL to get it to work. But, that means that you are getting a different pressure in your loads. The trick is to do the COL adjusting at loads that have just enough powder to make your gun eject cases properly, so that the loads are not near maximum pressure. Then, if your final COL gives LESS seating depth than the test data, you know that your loads are probably giving you a lower pressure than that data. But, if your seating depth needs to be greater than the seating depth used in the data, then you need to think carefully about how much powder you can add before you reach maximum allowable pressure. Increasing seating depth by what seems like very small amounts, say 0.010" or more, can have significant effects on pressure. If you need to do that, there are some computer programs that some of us have that can help estimate the effects of the COL change on pressure for you. But, those effects depend a lot on the particulars of the load, so it is best to ask for help if you need it.

SL1

[spiderman]

Thanks SL1, Would anyone know the length of a Speer 124grain 9mm TMJ? I am using a Winchester 9mm 124grain FMJ that is .699" long , Unique powder, Rem. brass .745"long. I have the Speer#12 manual. With 5.2gn Unique, What should my COL be with the win. bullet? Thanks Mike

[Jim243]

What SL1 said!!


Mike, about right now you are scratching your head and saying, WHAT???

It's not fair to drop that much data on a newbee. What SL1 is saying is that you need to work on a basis of pressure that is built up in the case. The equipment to measure PSI (pounds per square inch) or CUP (copper unit pressure) cost 1,000s of dollars, that's why we rely on the published info in the reloading manuals. A good measure of pressure is in feet per second (fps) that can be measured with a chrony which most can afford but only some have purchased, (I have yet to get one, but will get one this summer.)

So what can you do?? Well use an educated guess. Find a simular load with a SIMULAR bullet in the reloading manual. While most manufacturer's bullets will be a little different, you will note that most COLs are close from manual to manual.

Three factors effect the pressure you will develop in your load 1) COL/OAL and 2) amount (weight) of powder 3) Type of powder used (slow or fast).

9mm has very little room to vary from the published information because of the size of the case. Most of us started out on rifle cases, which have a lot of room in the cases and chambers are built heavier.

In just starting out, till you get some experience reloading, I would suggest that you find a load that you want to try, and BUY the bullets recommended in the load. Cases while they do vary are not as cridical and primer mfg will not make a substancial difference. Find the bullet in the load and purchase some of them. Once you have a number of loads under your belt, you will know what to use and how it works.

Jim

[spiderman]

Thanks Jim, Which manuals use winchester bullets? I appreciate all of your guys help! Mike

[Hammonje]

You can match COAL for like bullets. Usually you can find commercial versions of the ammo you are trying to create and get some data from them. Call Winchester and ask them the length of their 124 gr projectile and call Speer and ask them.

It depends on the nose (HP vs round nose). I load HP's at 1.13 and round nose at 1.15. Maximum 9mm OAL is 1.169. Most factory FMJ loaded ammo comes in around 1.15".

[spiderman]

Thanks guys, I think I am getting all this. I will let you all know what I am going to before I commit myself. By the way I do have a chronograph and if i do load I assume if I start at the minimum powder and the velocity matches the data I have from the Speer manual that I must be seating the bullet at the right depth. Is that a safe assumption?? Mike Ps I will call Speer , I allready have the winchester

[SL1]

Strange, I tried to look-up Speer's phone number and they have deleted that web page. I guess they don't like phone calls. They do have an e-mail access to ask them questions here: http://www.speer-bullets.com/general/contact_us.aspx .

But, I would think that somebody on this forum would have a Speer bullet they could just measure for you if you told them which one. Also, they are include in my QuickLOAD bullet database, but that is not always accurate.

So, which Speer bullet are you using the data for?

SL1

[spiderman]

Hello all, I am using the Speer 9mm 124gn tmj. I did leave Speer an email question. Waiting for a reply. Thanks again all. Mike

[Uncle Buck]

So what can you do?? Well use an educated guess. Find a similar load with a SIMULAR bullet in the reloading manual. While most manufacturer's bullets will be a little different, you will note that most COLs are close from manual to manual.

What are you going to do with the information once you get it?

I use an index card when I develop loads and one of the things I record is the Cartridge Overall Length (COAL) or Overall Cartridge Length (OCL). Some loading data may suggest an OCL of 1.125" and others list 1.135. For you, the best place for your gun may be 1.125" or 1.130".

That being said, and looking at the Speer #14 manual, you should be able to use that data listed on page XXX. The FMJ round that you are using, is it a ball round? If it looks like Speer Part # XXXX, Tapered Metal Jacket, you should be OK. But ALWAYS start at the bottom of listed suggested start loads. If I can not find the exact bullet in one of my manuals, or on loaddata.com,

I go to the nearest (closest) bullet by weight (always higher in weight than what I actually have) and start at the start load for that bullet. NOTE: Please see Post #11 for some very important info on why this is NOT a good idea for short case, high pressure, rounds!


Remember, Heavier weight projectiles, slower burning power.
Lighter bullets, faster powder...

I have only loaded for my .40 Cal once and for me it was a pain in the patukus! I will stick to my revolvers . My buddy loads the .40 S&W rounds for me and I load .45 LC for him.

[SL1]

Unclebuck,

I need to caution you that substituting bullets that "look like" each other in pictures in manuals or on the web can get you into trouble with small, high-pressure cartridges like the 9mm and 40 S&W. I took a look at the data entry in QuickLOAD for the Speer 124 gr TMJ bullet, and it is more than 0.100" shorter than the length the OP gave for his Winchester bullet. That means a LOT less powder space for his bullet seated to the Speer manual COL. For some powders and charge weights in the Speer data, using the OP's bullets at the Speer COL would make DANGEROUS loads, IF the QuickLOAD database has the correct length for the Speer bullet.

So, the next step is for somebody to give us the actual measured length of a Speer 124 grain TMJ RN 9mm bullet (#3993). Then, we will probably need to help him adjust the charge data from the Speer manual to be safe with his bullet.

Also, I don't see any 124 grain FMJ bullets that are as long as the 0.699" length that the OP gave for his Winchester bullets, so maybe he needs to check those again, too.

And, if the Winchesters really are 0.699" long, it makes me wonder if they have some sort of hollow in the base that leaves a little more powder space than a flat-based bullet would leave. That is one reason that some bullets seem so long for their weights. But, there are other possible reasons, too, such as bullets that include elastomeric materials inside their jackets to make them expand in the middle instead of the nose. There are a lot of possibilities to consider when you don't have the bullet to look at.

SL1

[spiderman]

Hi guys, Well I read SL1 last post and guess what? I DID read my calipers wrong. The winchester bullet measures .595" . (insert embarresment smilly). So if anyone can give me the length of a Speer 9mm 124gn TMJ I would appreciate it greatly. Does anyone know if there is a site where you can get different manufactures bullet lengths? I am sure that this is not the first time a reloader has faced this delema(sp). Thanks Mike

[SL1]

Spiderman,

Now that we have a 0.595" bullet length for the bullet you are working with, then the data you have in the Speer manal for bullet #3993 should be a resonable representation of your Winchester bullet, based on QuickLOAD giving a length of 0.595 for that Speer bullet.

But, to all you folks who think that this was a useless exercise because all 124 RN FMJs are essentially equivalent, consider that the QuickLOAD bullet database showes a range of 0.031" for 124 grain bullets of that type. If you throw in 123 and 125 grain FMJ RN bullets, you get a range of 0.071". Increasing the seating depth of the wrong maximum load by something like 0.030" can increase pressure by tens of thousands of psi. So, if you THINK your bullet may not be like the one used to create the data for the powder you want to use, it REALLY pays to check it out, carefully.

SL1

[spiderman]

Thanks SL1 and everybody that responded. When I actually get ready to some loading I will definetly touch base with you all .JUST TO MAKE SURE I AM DOING IT RIGHT! I have been reading all your threads for the past month or so and have learned a lot. Thanks again, Mike

[bullspotter]

Im with SL1 for sure on the 9mm and 40 loads. The data between bullets is not 100% compatable with like bullets.

Ive done lots of testing with my 40 loads, and some with my 9. Some info i found with the 165 Gr mt gold hollow points vrs 165 grain Gold dots. Starting load with unique on the GD is 6.2. The gold dot is shorter then the MT gold, so i adjusted col longer to create the same space in the case as a GD load. Made 5 loads, starting at 6.2 and ending up at max of 7.3. Made 5 of each and went and tested them. all went good, the 7.3 load was putting a nice bulge the brass, this is in a glock 22 with lonewolf barrel. Recoil was stout!! So i settled on the 6.5 grain load, felt ok and ran the gun great, good accuracy ext. The book states this (6.5 grains) load with a GD bullet is about 900 fps. My crono says it was clocking at 1120...(with MT gold).... 10 round test. I wasnt sure about that, so off i go to the store to buy a box of factory ammo, remington 165 grain, 10 rounds of this clocked at 1075, and felt recoil was less. After checking factory ammo, i ran 10 more of my 6.5 load, still right at 1120. I adjusted my new loads to 5.9 grains and they clock at about 1040 (MT Gold). All of my test loads were wighed and done 1 at a time, hand trickeld. Now my gold dot loads with 6.5 grains were clocking at 1080, 40 fps slower then the MT gold with the bullets seated to creat = area inside case by adjusting the col. One thing to think about is the MT is longer and will have more bearing surface in the gun causing higher pressure and more velocity???? Now the book data I have was not real accurate eather, the 7.3 grain loads I chronod were all over 1220, (with GD Bullets) i shot 3 and decided it was not a good idea to continue. My book says a gold dot with 7.3 grains of unque had a volicty of 1064. So the differances of my gun vrs what the data was made from is alot, this is why its important to just use it as a starting point, and really from now on ill be taking an extra 5% from the starting load when mixing componets. I wish I would have ran the 7.3 grain loads with the MT gold though my crono, bet the were cranking pretty good. Sorry for the long post, but i hope it shows something about just swapping things out and or starting a first load for a new guy.

[Uncle Buck]

SL1 - Thanks for the update. I did not realize it was a possibility until I read your post.
I was given that info from another reloader and it has works work me BUT I am using longer cases for other pistol rounds. I am going to edit my original post. I am also going to make a note of it in the front of my manual.

Again, thanks. Sharing info is how we all learn.

[MADISON]

One man's openion:
Most accurate in order...
Sierra
Hornady
Speer
Winchester
Remmington

[WESHOOT2]

Bullets differ in bearing length, malleability, overall length, friction coeffecient, and some other stuff.

Always assume every brand is different (because they are).



Start slow and work upward, slowly (I rarely 'jump' by more than .2g).

[brotus2]

I'm thanking everyone , also!