308 Sizing issues

rduckwor · February 4, 2012, 11:17 AM

I have a nice Rem 700 SS milspec rifle with the 5R barrel.

I am trying to reload some milspec brass for the rifle and have serious difficulty sizing the brass to fit the chamber.

I bought a little once fired NATO brass a while back and it is giving me fits.

Mostly headstamped WCC and WRA, with a few LC thrown in.

Yesterday,

I took special pains to set up my sizing die (LEE) to work this brass, sized it X2 (180 degree rotation), trimmed it cleaned and dried it.

Of the 11 test cases I sized, one (LC) fits the chamber and allows me to close the bolt. All the others including a couple more LC, fail.

I should mention that I have not similar issues with commercial brass, just the milspec stuff.

What am I missing here?

Thanks,

RMD

Jim243 · February 4, 2012, 11:34 AM

Bring your resizing die down a 1/4 turn, be sure your cases are lubed and resize again.

Jim

rduckwor · February 4, 2012, 11:46 AM

I'll give it a try, but not sure how much further down I can go.

Thanks,

Jimro · February 4, 2012, 12:10 PM

A lot of milsurp brass is fired in machine guns with oversized chambers. A small base resizing die may be necessary to get those brass properly sized to fit in your chamber. Mil brass is strong, and sometimes it will "spring back" after sizing.

Take your dial calipers and measure the width of the body of your sized milsurp brass, and compare with your resized commercial brass, you'll see what I mean. If the excess size is far up enough on the brass you might be able to anneal the stress out of it, if not you'll need that small base die set.

On the other hand, I've reloaded a lot of M80 brass using a Lee RGB full length sizer and encounters some occasional stiffness in getting the bolt to close in the chamber of my Savage 10. However, the brass is safe to use if you can get it in the chamber. Mostly though I use that brass for feeding my Saiganov, which has a chrome lined and rather generous chamber that seems to eat up M80 brass no problem.

Jimro

rduckwor · February 4, 2012, 01:53 PM

Yep, mine gets fed to my FAL, but I didi want totry to load some for my bolt.

Thanks,

m&p45acp10+1 · February 4, 2012, 01:59 PM

I would recomend the go down a bit more with the sizing die. If that does not work you may need to use the Small Base Die for the first resizing of the brass.

rduckwor · February 4, 2012, 03:33 PM

Yep. That was it. I had to turn the die 1.25 turns AFTER it contacted the shell holder. It took some muscle, but they chamber now. Thanks,

Jimro · February 4, 2012, 04:03 PM

I've always wondered about that, we adjust dies until they contact the shell holder and when that doesn't work someone always suggests adjusting down further, but once the shell holder makes contact with the sizing die, where does the extra sizing come from? Once the shell holder and die make contact, there doesn't seem to be any more room between them to take up....

Maybe it's slop in the threads or spring in the press?

Jimro

m&p45acp10+1 · February 4, 2012, 04:10 PM

It has something to do with giving more force after the shell holder cams over I think. I follow the instructions with the dies that say go to contact, and then aonther one and half turns.

Though I usualy only FL size once. I then neck size after that. I have a bag full of the ones that got too long, or took more force than I like to close the bolt in my I will mess with it later basket.

**Unclenick** · February 4, 2012, 05:20 PM

It's press spring. Run the case up into the die and shine a bright flashlight behind the die as you go around it, and you will pick up a crack of light somewhere. Additional pressure beyond blackness may get another little bit by deflection of the die and shell holder, I suppose.

Rduckwor,

Next time you run into this, here are a couple of things you can try. Not only run the case into the die as you would normally, but count to 5 slowly while it sits there. Then back it out and repeat twice at 120° intervals. That seems to let a little bit of the brass spring take a set, and often gets you another couple thousandths off the shoulder length.

Another thing is to use board member F. Guffey's favorite trick, which is to remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and slip a feeler gage in between the bottom of the case and the shell holder. That gets you additional sizing equal to the thickness of the gage.

In both of the above examples, I would remove both the decapping pin and the expander to avoid overworking the neck, then would expand separately with a neck turning mandrel in a die body or a Lyman M die. The latter helps bullets seat straight anyway.

Once-fired brass can be problematic. We've got a thread going on another forum now where a fellow familiar with benchrest loading technique and who gets tight groups with all brass except military once-fired, despite having got it properly sized, neck turned, primer pocket uniformed and everything else he can think to do with it. This is a sub-half inch gun turning in 1.5-2" groups with the once-fired no matter what he does with it or how he adjusts his load data. On this forum we once had a fellow who got high pressure signs from his once-fired if he went over about 80% of what would be normal loads in new LC brass. In yet another thread here we had a fellow unable to get half his once-fired to size properly for any reason. It turned out to have rims so bent that if they were lined up in a row and you sighted down the row, it looked like a collection of leaning towers of Pisa. Those rims acted like shims in the shell holder, but also were too distorted to chamber. As a result he had some cases a case comparator showed were set back .008" below new case size and they still wouldn't fit into his chamber.

If you buy your once-fired from a surplus vendor, then it's probably worth paying extra to buy it conditioned (cleaned, sized, trimmed, primer pocket crimp removed). The roll sizing dies they use for volume can be made to size the head and rim back if they're properly set up (which a handloader's dies do not do). They also tend to over-resize necks, so be prepared to use a mandrel or M die or to lube them and run them over your sizing die's expander.

rduckwor · February 5, 2012, 07:56 AM

Thanks for the information guys.

I agree that milspec brass is not the best thing to utilize for accurate loading.

I need to do some tuning on sizer position now that I have finally achieved a small run that will chamber.

Thanks again.

m&p45acp10+1 · February 5, 2012, 08:08 AM

Glad to hear you have the problem solved for now.

More times than not that I have seen it usualy tensd to be something realy simple.

February 4, 2012, 11:17 AM	#1
rduckwor Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2008 Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama Posts: 365	308 Sizing issues I have a nice Rem 700 SS milspec rifle with the 5R barrel. I am trying to reload some milspec brass for the rifle and have serious difficulty sizing the brass to fit the chamber. I bought a little once fired NATO brass a while back and it is giving me fits. Mostly headstamped WCC and WRA, with a few LC thrown in. Yesterday, I took special pains to set up my sizing die (LEE) to work this brass, sized it X2 (180 degree rotation), trimmed it cleaned and dried it. Of the 11 test cases I sized, one (LC) fits the chamber and allows me to close the bolt. All the others including a couple more LC, fail. I should mention that I have not similar issues with commercial brass, just the milspec stuff. What am I missing here? Thanks, RMD __________________ RMD

February 4, 2012, 11:34 AM	#2
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Bring your resizing die down a 1/4 turn, be sure your cases are lubed and resize again. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

February 4, 2012, 11:46 AM	#3
rduckwor Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2008 Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama Posts: 365	I'll give it a try, but not sure how much further down I can go. Thanks, __________________ RMD Last edited by rduckwor; February 4, 2012 at 01:54 PM.

February 4, 2012, 12:10 PM	#4
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	A lot of milsurp brass is fired in machine guns with oversized chambers. A small base resizing die may be necessary to get those brass properly sized to fit in your chamber. Mil brass is strong, and sometimes it will "spring back" after sizing. Take your dial calipers and measure the width of the body of your sized milsurp brass, and compare with your resized commercial brass, you'll see what I mean. If the excess size is far up enough on the brass you might be able to anneal the stress out of it, if not you'll need that small base die set. On the other hand, I've reloaded a lot of M80 brass using a Lee RGB full length sizer and encounters some occasional stiffness in getting the bolt to close in the chamber of my Savage 10. However, the brass is safe to use if you can get it in the chamber. Mostly though I use that brass for feeding my Saiganov, which has a chrome lined and rather generous chamber that seems to eat up M80 brass no problem. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 4, 2012, 01:53 PM	#5
rduckwor Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2008 Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama Posts: 365	Yep, mine gets fed to my FAL, but I didi want totry to load some for my bolt. Thanks, __________________ RMD

February 4, 2012, 01:59 PM	#6
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I would recomend the go down a bit more with the sizing die. If that does not work you may need to use the Small Base Die for the first resizing of the brass. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 4, 2012, 03:33 PM	#7
rduckwor Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2008 Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama Posts: 365	Yep. That was it. I had to turn the die 1.25 turns AFTER it contacted the shell holder. It took some muscle, but they chamber now. Thanks, __________________ RMD

February 4, 2012, 04:03 PM	#8
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I've always wondered about that, we adjust dies until they contact the shell holder and when that doesn't work someone always suggests adjusting down further, but once the shell holder makes contact with the sizing die, where does the extra sizing come from? Once the shell holder and die make contact, there doesn't seem to be any more room between them to take up.... Maybe it's slop in the threads or spring in the press? Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

February 4, 2012, 04:10 PM	#9
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	It has something to do with giving more force after the shell holder cams over I think. I follow the instructions with the dies that say go to contact, and then aonther one and half turns. Though I usualy only FL size once. I then neck size after that. I have a bag full of the ones that got too long, or took more force than I like to close the bolt in my I will mess with it later basket. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

February 4, 2012, 05:20 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's press spring. Run the case up into the die and shine a bright flashlight behind the die as you go around it, and you will pick up a crack of light somewhere. Additional pressure beyond blackness may get another little bit by deflection of the die and shell holder, I suppose. Rduckwor, Next time you run into this, here are a couple of things you can try. Not only run the case into the die as you would normally, but count to 5 slowly while it sits there. Then back it out and repeat twice at 120° intervals. That seems to let a little bit of the brass spring take a set, and often gets you another couple thousandths off the shoulder length. Another thing is to use board member F. Guffey's favorite trick, which is to remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and slip a feeler gage in between the bottom of the case and the shell holder. That gets you additional sizing equal to the thickness of the gage. In both of the above examples, I would remove both the decapping pin and the expander to avoid overworking the neck, then would expand separately with a neck turning mandrel in a die body or a Lyman M die. The latter helps bullets seat straight anyway. Once-fired brass can be problematic. We've got a thread going on another forum now where a fellow familiar with benchrest loading technique and who gets tight groups with all brass except military once-fired, despite having got it properly sized, neck turned, primer pocket uniformed and everything else he can think to do with it. This is a sub-half inch gun turning in 1.5-2" groups with the once-fired no matter what he does with it or how he adjusts his load data. On this forum we once had a fellow who got high pressure signs from his once-fired if he went over about 80% of what would be normal loads in new LC brass. In yet another thread here we had a fellow unable to get half his once-fired to size properly for any reason. It turned out to have rims so bent that if they were lined up in a row and you sighted down the row, it looked like a collection of leaning towers of Pisa. Those rims acted like shims in the shell holder, but also were too distorted to chamber. As a result he had some cases a case comparator showed were set back .008" below new case size and they still wouldn't fit into his chamber. If you buy your once-fired from a surplus vendor, then it's probably worth paying extra to buy it conditioned (cleaned, sized, trimmed, primer pocket crimp removed). The roll sizing dies they use for volume can be made to size the head and rim back if they're properly set up (which a handloader's dies do not do). They also tend to over-resize necks, so be prepared to use a mandrel or M die or to lube them and run them over your sizing die's expander. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 5, 2012, 07:56 AM	#11
rduckwor Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2008 Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama Posts: 365	Thanks for the information guys. I agree that milspec brass is not the best thing to utilize for accurate loading. I need to do some tuning on sizer position now that I have finally achieved a small run that will chamber. Thanks again. __________________ RMD

February 5, 2012, 08:08 AM	#12
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Glad to hear you have the problem solved for now. More times than not that I have seen it usualy tensd to be something realy simple. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.