Hardess goal for pistol alloy

Barnacle Brad · January 12, 2015, 10:08 PM

I want to cast some bullets and took inventory of my ww ingots...

When I cast last time I was happy to use pure ww with the understanding the hardness is is fine for my 357 and 44 mag.

My quandery is that I only have about three lbs of ww, but have pure lead on hand and some tin to make up some hardness. I don't have a tester to verify hardness - not too worried about it, but still am interested in preferred hardness for pistol rounds. I think I should be in the 13-17 bnh range.

What to do, what to do?

(Go Ducks)

###################edit###################

I should have went and looked at the alloy calculator instead of making this post i guess. The bnh of ww is 12.4 and pure lead is 8.2. Time to get set up to pc some bullets I think since ww are scarce. I think the scarcity is a a conspiracy involving the EPA and powder coat manufacturers, or something like that...

bangerjim · January 13, 2015, 07:56 PM

Remember...........Sn does not add very much hardness. We gain hardness from Sb.

The alloy calculator spreadsheet is our friend! ~2% Sn is what I try to accomplish. COWW's have 0.5% to start with.

And I have found out over the 1.5 years of PC'ing EVERYTTHING I cast, I use 10-12 hardness for all pistols (subsonic) and ~14-15 for rifles. PC allows you to shoot softer lead than you ever could with grease lubes and still not have any leading!

Go get 'er done!

Wreck-n-Crew · January 13, 2015, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Application Hardness Range
Light target loads (<800 fps and 10,000 psi) BHN 6-12
Standard revolver loads (800-1000 fps, 16,000 psi) BHN 8-14
+P revolver loads (1000-1200 fps, 20,000 psi) BHN 10-16
Magnum revolver loads (1200-1500 fps, 35,000 psi) BHN 12-20
454 Casull (1400-1800 fps, 50,000 psi) BHN 16 and up

Should be good. Maybe lighten the load up a little and work back up if its bothering too much.
PS sorry bout your ducks...my buckeyes ate good though!

Wreck-n-Crew · January 13, 2015, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Remember...........Sn does not add very much hardness. We gain hardness from Sb.

True. Tin does do other things. It smooths out the pour and helps to fill the mold better, makes those bullet diameters more consistent and the bullet purdy.

gojuice101 · January 13, 2015, 11:06 PM

Pure lead is usually rated at 5bhn, sometimes 6. I've never seen a BHN value of 8.2 for pure lead. However, you'll probably need something else to harden pure lead enough. Tin makes it fill better, but it doesn't contribute significantly to hardness. You'll need something like linotype or something similar if working with pure lead. Or just powder coat everything. In my opinion, that's the way to go. It's what I started doing.

Barnacle Brad · January 14, 2015, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Pure lead is usually rated at 5bhn, sometimes 6.

So the hardness of lead varies? And my Lead Alloy Calculator is wrong...

What is this world coming to? Next thing you know the jihadis will be murdering French cartoon satirists.

bangerjim · January 14, 2015, 04:06 PM

The hardness/mix calc spreadsheets I use lists pure Pb as 5, but if you put in ONLY pure Pb, the math comes out to 8.6. I guess it has to be that way to get the math for all the other sweetening alloys to come out right.

I know if I mix a batch by weight using the calc and cast it, the Bhn is darn near what the calc says it should be. Depending on the alloy, it will get harder with age. If you water drop and have a goo Sb alloy, all bets are off.

Bumpo wrote the one I use and it seems pretty accurate.

But 5, 6, even 8...........so close, it is all soft lead. I don't sweat the low end at all.

bangerjim · January 14, 2015, 04:13 PM

Quoted from Larry Gibson on another forum:

Adding Sn does more than just increase good fill-out.

"COWWs (which most seem to use) probably have somewhere around 2 - 2 ½% antimony (Sb) in it and practically no tin (Sn). The addition of 2% tin will balance the Sb and Sn content and they will combine to form the sub metal SbSn. That sub metal will then mix very well into solution in the lead (Pb). Doing such will give a much better alloy than the simple sum of the parts. The BHN of the AC'd bullets after 10 days will be at least 12 but more than likely higher to as much as 15 BHN depending on the actual amount of Sb that was in the COWWs."

I calculate and cast 10-12 Bhn air cooled and in ~2 weeks (after PCing & air cooling again) they end up around 14.

Mike / Tx · January 14, 2015, 08:40 PM

Quote:

So the hardness of lead varies? And my Lead Alloy Calculator is wrong...

Yes tot he first part depending on what other trace elements are included.

Naaa to the last part. Mine reads just like mentioned below,

Quote:

The hardness/mix calc spreadsheets I use lists pure Pb as 5, but if you put in ONLY pure Pb, the math comes out to 8.6. I guess it has to be that way to get the math for all the other sweetening alloys to come out right.

I know if I mix a batch by weight using the calc and cast it, the Bhn is darn near what the calc says it should be. Depending on the alloy, it will get harder with age. If you water drop and have a goo Sb alloy, all bets are off.

Bumpo wrote the one I use and it seems pretty accurate.

But 5, 6, even 8...........so close, it is all soft lead. I don't sweat the low end at all.

chris in va · January 14, 2015, 09:37 PM

I'm so thankful for ingenuity. I was so stressed about the WW supply drying up but someone came up with powdercoating bullet and our hobby now has a new lease on life.

I still have a source of WW but pure lead such as roof flashing will be around a long time.

Beagle333 · January 14, 2015, 09:49 PM

Range scrap is plentiful and fairly cheap too. And it was just made for powdercoating.

Wreck-n-Crew · January 15, 2015, 03:26 PM

Quote:

I'm so thankful for ingenuity. I was so stressed about the WW supply drying up but someone came up with powdercoating bullet and our hobby now has a new lease on life.

Nailed 110lbs today.. had to leave another 100

there but it was cheap at least. They say they get it all the time and never run out... I told him that's about to change!...lol

bangerjim · January 15, 2015, 03:58 PM

Now that COWW's are drying up (thanks to liberal owl huggers and tree kissers) I have gone to making my own alloys the way I want. Very easy using the calculators. I have not bought WW's in over a year now. And I sure do not miss that smoky, stinky mess of re-melting them with my plumber's furnace to pour ingots.

In some areas of the country, guys are still finding WW's, but they are getting harder and harder to find that are not mostly Zn and Fe.

Best bet is buy your primary alloys and mix with pure lead to get what you want. I have no problem finding that stuff in the scrap yards. Cleaner, easier, faster than messing with dirty WW's.

January 12, 2015, 10:08 PM	#1
Barnacle Brad Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2009 Location: Greybull, Wyoming Posts: 416	Hardess goal for pistol alloy I want to cast some bullets and took inventory of my ww ingots... When I cast last time I was happy to use pure ww with the understanding the hardness is is fine for my 357 and 44 mag. My quandery is that I only have about three lbs of ww, but have pure lead on hand and some tin to make up some hardness. I don't have a tester to verify hardness - not too worried about it, but still am interested in preferred hardness for pistol rounds. I think I should be in the 13-17 bnh range. What to do, what to do? (Go Ducks) ###################edit################### I should have went and looked at the alloy calculator instead of making this post i guess. The bnh of ww is 12.4 and pure lead is 8.2. Time to get set up to pc some bullets I think since ww are scarce. I think the scarcity is a a conspiracy involving the EPA and powder coat manufacturers, or something like that... __________________ Brad Last edited by Barnacle Brad; January 13, 2015 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Add Info

January 14, 2015, 04:13 PM	#8
bangerjim Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: SW Desert Posts: 57	Adding Sn Quoted from Larry Gibson on another forum: Adding Sn does more than just increase good fill-out. "COWWs (which most seem to use) probably have somewhere around 2 - 2 ½% antimony (Sb) in it and practically no tin (Sn). The addition of 2% tin will balance the Sb and Sn content and they will combine to form the sub metal SbSn. That sub metal will then mix very well into solution in the lead (Pb). Doing such will give a much better alloy than the simple sum of the parts. The BHN of the AC'd bullets after 10 days will be at least 12 but more than likely higher to as much as 15 BHN depending on the actual amount of Sb that was in the COWWs." I calculate and cast 10-12 Bhn air cooled and in ~2 weeks (after PCing & air cooling again) they end up around 14.

January 14, 2015, 09:49 PM	#11
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Range scrap is plentiful and fairly cheap too. And it was just made for powdercoating. __________________ . . . Have a Colt and a smile.

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January 13, 2015, 07:56 PM	#2
bangerjim Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: SW Desert Posts: 57	Remember...........Sn does not add very much hardness. We gain hardness from Sb. The alloy calculator spreadsheet is our friend! ~2% Sn is what I try to accomplish. COWW's have 0.5% to start with. And I have found out over the 1.5 years of PC'ing EVERYTTHING I cast, I use 10-12 hardness for all pistols (subsonic) and ~14-15 for rifles. PC allows you to shoot softer lead than you ever could with grease lubes and still not have any leading! Go get 'er done!

January 13, 2015, 11:06 PM	#5
gojuice101 Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: Spotsylvania, VA Posts: 31	Pure lead is usually rated at 5bhn, sometimes 6. I've never seen a BHN value of 8.2 for pure lead. However, you'll probably need something else to harden pure lead enough. Tin makes it fill better, but it doesn't contribute significantly to hardness. You'll need something like linotype or something similar if working with pure lead. Or just powder coat everything. In my opinion, that's the way to go. It's what I started doing.

January 14, 2015, 04:06 PM	#7
bangerjim Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: SW Desert Posts: 57	The hardness/mix calc spreadsheets I use lists pure Pb as 5, but if you put in ONLY pure Pb, the math comes out to 8.6. I guess it has to be that way to get the math for all the other sweetening alloys to come out right. I know if I mix a batch by weight using the calc and cast it, the Bhn is darn near what the calc says it should be. Depending on the alloy, it will get harder with age. If you water drop and have a goo Sb alloy, all bets are off. Bumpo wrote the one I use and it seems pretty accurate. But 5, 6, even 8...........so close, it is all soft lead. I don't sweat the low end at all.

January 14, 2015, 09:37 PM	#10
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I'm so thankful for ingenuity. I was so stressed about the WW supply drying up but someone came up with powdercoating bullet and our hobby now has a new lease on life. I still have a source of WW but pure lead such as roof flashing will be around a long time.

January 15, 2015, 03:58 PM	#13
bangerjim Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: SW Desert Posts: 57	Now that COWW's are drying up (thanks to liberal owl huggers and tree kissers) I have gone to making my own alloys the way I want. Very easy using the calculators. I have not bought WW's in over a year now. And I sure do not miss that smoky, stinky mess of re-melting them with my plumber's furnace to pour ingots. In some areas of the country, guys are still finding WW's, but they are getting harder and harder to find that are not mostly Zn and Fe. Best bet is buy your primary alloys and mix with pure lead to get what you want. I have no problem finding that stuff in the scrap yards. Cleaner, easier, faster than messing with dirty WW's.