Bird shot for HD?

[BlondieStomp]

It's really not that complicated

Mass X Velocity = Momentum

Momentum and drag coefficient will be the key factors in penetration.

More momentum, more penetration.

Penetration is your friend in self defense with a firearms. Each pellet of #9 shot has much less momentum and penetrative potential than a 1 ounce slug travelling about the same speed. I don't get the apoligizing and rationalizing over birdshot.

[ZeroJunk]

I think if somebody hits you with a 1 pound sand bag at 1000 FPS you will have a very bad day. The amount of energy will be exactly the same as the granite. If you spread the shot or sand out so that the energy is spread out over time and area then the trauma will obviously be much less. So, the effect of bird shot diminishes very quickly compared to buck shot.

But, I'll bet I can still punch a hole through a 2X6 at 18 feet.

A 1 ounce load of 9 shot and a 1 ounce slug at the same velocity have exactly the same momentum.

[Bill DeShivs]

I know a man that was shot at 6-8 feet with a load of #8 birdshot. It blew out part of a lung. They picked the wadding off his spine. I would say birdshot works at close range.
BTW- it should have killed him, but didn't. He ran 35 yards before he collapsed. He was 1 minute from a hospital. He was full of alcohol and cocaine.
You just never know. If it had been buckshot, the wound would not have been much different-a little more penetration maybe, but he probably still would have lived.
I would prefer larger shot, but small shot is nothing to sneeze at.

[Tamara]

But, I'll bet I can still punch a hole through a 2X6 at 18 feet.

Having shot the same type of load at the same target from both distance myself, you may be surprised at the difference in the nature of the results.

[ZeroJunk]

OK, Remington Model 11, 28 Full Choke, Winchester Double X, 7 1/2 shot, 18 feet, Lowes model 2X6

Anybody want me to try anything else, I've got plenty of 2X6 scraps.

[Rangefinder]

For HD purposes, birdshot is going to make one heck of a mess out of whatever gets in its way just because of close range and the tight pattern of the shot--such as same-room distances. Pretty safe to say that point is well proven. But it will lose effectiveness rapidly once distance comes into play--such as firing from inside a room down a hallway, etc. I, personally, wouldn't hesitate to rely on my 870 with birdshot in a HD situation--in fact it's preferred over 0 or 00 in my case. Trailer exterior walls will contain #8, but the neighbors could be in trouble with 00. But in a larger house, especially with multi-level design, I'd be checking distances and angles first.

[Early C.]

OK, Remington Model 11, 28 Full Choke, Winchester Double X, 7 1/2 shot, 18 feet, Lowes model 2X6

Anybody want me to try anything else, I've got plenty of 2X6 scraps.

I have to admit, that is a lot more impressive than I thought it would be.

From my bed to my front door is exactly 31' so I think I'll stick with what I have but it is nice to know that birdshot will work. Thanks Zero.

[BlondieStomp]

A 1 ounce load of 9 shot and a 1 ounce slug at the same velocity have exactly the same momentum.

Incorrect.

Each pellet of #9 is acting and moving of its own accord essentially, just flying near each other. The amount of momentum each individual pellet possesses doesn't coagulate into a larger mass because the pellets are close to each other.

Shooting a person with an ounce of #9 shot is hitting them with 60 or so pellets that each have 1/60th the momentum of a solid projectile weighing one ounce, assuming that both loads are travelling the same speed.

I understand that you're confused by the equal weights of shot, but once the pellets leave the shot cup they're no longer one entity, just ~60 of them near each other.

[Army Alpha]

Maybe I am missing it, but is there a reason why some of you are advocating #8.

Despite the board shooting tests that have been posted, maybe they are sufficient, maybe the test is unrealistic, who cares is my point?

Some of you have made this an argument about whether #8 is sufficient, which I dont think is the issue.The real question should be is #8 BETTER than 00 or 04. I think the answer is obvious for most 'normal' people (read smaller folk might be a different argument). Get the 00 and not have to worry or debate.

Think about it this way, if you knew someone was breaking in your house tonight, would you load you shotty with 00 or #8. Case closed.

[ZeroJunk]

I understand that you're confused by the equal weights of shot

The 585 or so number 9 shot in an ounce have collective energy exactly equal to the 1 ounce slug at the same velocity.

Are you trying to tell me that you think getting hit with 585 separate number 9 shot, one at a time, equals getting hit by the whole load in a 2 inch string? Come on.

The real question should be is #8 BETTER than 00 or 04

Nobody other than the clerk in the OP said it was.

[tplumeri]

Penetration is your friend in self defense with a firearms. Each pellet of #9 shot has much less momentum and penetrative potential than a 1 ounce slug travelling about the same speed. I don't get the apoligizing and rationalizing over birdshot

Point well taken, but not evrybody needs to fire slugs for HD.
I did a post some time ago that asked what folks loaded in their HD 12 gauge and why.
If i remember right, most common was a mixture of pellets and slugs.
My personal HD loads usuallyhave both #4 or 6 shot and slugs.
Rationale is a couple shots of pellets in case theres more than one intruder and a few slugs to finish the job.

[Army Alpha]

Which was the original question...so why all the arguing?

(oops I forgot, this is the internet where hypotheticals rule...I am going to go read a zombie attack thread

[tplumeri]

I am going to go read a zombie attack thread

YEAH! Off to Zombie threads!
BTY: whats the smallest caliber you can use to effect a one shot kill on a zombie? Assuming a clean head shot.

hey Penguin, are you reading this?
tom

[ZeroJunk]

The point I am making is that if all you have is bird shot you might want to go ahead and shoot the intruder rather than be killed thinking the 8 shot is going to bounce off at 10 to 20 feet.

YEAH! Off to Zombie threads!

Or he could wander off and troll somewhere else.

[Tamara]

The point I am making is that if all you have is bird shot you might want to go ahead and shoot the intruder rather than be killed thinking the 8 shot is going to bounce off at 10 to 20 feet.

...and that is a good point. Birdshot will punch a person's ticket. Just not as reliably as buck or slugs. BTW, did you try the test with an 18" cylinder bore as well? Not too shabby a pattern from that 11. How old is it?

[Rangefinder]

Think about it this way, if you knew someone was breaking in your house tonight, would you load you shotty with 00 or #8. Case closed.

As I think I already stated, I'd rather use #8, for the reason I already mentioned----I'd prefer NOT to punch my neighbor's ticket along with the intruders.

oops I forgot, this is the internet where hypotheticals rule

Internet, discussing reality---where conditions are very different, requiring sound judgement in more than just the "splatter factor" of a load against a hypothetical intruder.

NOW, case closed.

[ZeroJunk]

How old is it?

I don't know. It has the "suicide" safety. I figure late teens, early 20's maybe.

The barrel is stock. I have one that is backbored and sleeved down to .640, but I didn't think that would be fair.

[Army Alpha]

As I think I already stated, I'd rather use #8, for the reason I already mentioned----I'd prefer NOT to punch my neighbor's ticket along with the intruders.

Legitimate reason and I agree with you (and yours is an actual issue, rather than the vague preponderance about whether #8 is sufficient and this wasnt addressed at you), but 00 is also fine for people who have less worry about over-penetration issues. AND if that is not an issue, 00 is better in all areas for MOST people. On this I think we agree. Yours appears to be a unique situation not mentioned by anyone else so apologies if I did not fully acknowledge ALL presented situations in this thread and attempted to make a more general comment. I hope you feel validated now.

I think Zerojunk's point is well taken, I would rather come out blasting with my model 60 than naught but my dork in my hands. I just felt that this discussion was in need of re-direction.

[billindenver]

He then told me I should be using nothing but #8 shot for home defense.

If I were being attacked by birds I wouldn't hesitate to use bird shot to defend myself. And naturally if it were a swarm of shooting clays jumping me, #8 would be the ideal load. But, in the more likely event that a human were my home defense problem, I don't want him wounded, I don't want him crying like a girl while reaching for their sidearm....I want whatever I hit to come off or disentigrate. For that, I choose one of the buckshots...pick your flavor. If he ducks behind a door jamb, I want to be able to blow that jamb in half and still put a hurting on him. Bird shot is for...well...killing birds and it will not stop a meth head, or whatever assailant is in my home with near enough certainty for me.

[Tamara]

I don't know. It has the "suicide" safety. I figure late teens, early 20's maybe.

The reason I ask is that old shotties have forcing cones cut for paper shotshells and give patterns with plastic-hulled shells that are almost a full choke tighter than you'd think. This is why paper hunters pay big money for old 97s and 12s.

I know my '43-vintage Model 11 doesn't pattern anywhere near that tight at 6 yards with number eight shot. I'd be tickled if 3/4 of the pellets hit the 2x6.

(Incidentally, every dead goblin story involving birdshot I can personally verify involved a 28-ish" fowling piece and a <10' shot. When all you have is your skeet gun and some birdshot, it beats using the ol' 870 as a club. )

[ZeroJunk]

This is why paper hunters pay big money

That's why I have it. I have one that will put 480 or so number 9's in an 8X8 target at 60 feet. I never said what I was going to use.

If I get time tomorrow I'll screw a full choke in a modern gun and see what it does.
I'll be quite surprised if it doesn't pop a hole through also.

[BlondieStomp]

Are you trying to tell me that you think getting hit with 585 separate number 9 shot, one at a time, equals getting hit by the whole load in a 2 inch string? Come on.

Last post then I'm done

If you were to launch those 585 pellets at 1000 fps at the same time out of your 12 gauge at a target, or one at a time at 1000 fps, or in any combination you choose, in the exact same pattern,that the shot cup fired pellets hit, the penetration would be the exact same.

The net effect would be very similar, the only difference of all of them striking at the same time would be the target at the receiving end would feel an impact slightly less powerful than the one that struck your shoulder when you fired.

[tplumeri]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261383


found the old thread which offers more solutions than anyone has problems!

I still think youre better off having a larger spray pattern that shot affords rather than slug as your initial shot(s).

I dont really think anyone really cares if you use 00, #4,6 or 8. youre still better off with a 12 gauge at the bedside than you are with a handgun. In the middle of the night, awoken from a sound sleep.......
I keep both w/i easy reach.

NOW, can we bring on the zombies?

[ZeroJunk]

Last post then I'm done

At 10 feet the shot are tightly packed and as soon as the front pellet slows down at impact it has the ones behind pushing it. It will quickly become one mass as the shot just a few thousandth behind catch up.

Do you really think that one #9 shot would have penetrated that 2x6 by itself?

[billindenver]

Hmmm, I would think the increased spread of the shot would mean more air resistance and therefore less punch at the end. Or as my old race car mechanic used to say....aerodynamic drag is bad.