Powder coated boolits for .30-06

[tangolima]

Ordered samples 165gr coated bullets from Missouri bullet company. It is sized to 0.309" for 30-30. Loaded some light with imr4895. The rifle is my old 1917 eddystone.

The result has been disappointing. Off paper even at 25 yd, even the speed is down to 1700fps. Quite a bit of white smoke with smell of burnt plastic. No leading though. Something is not right. The same gun shoots 200gr gas checked boolits with no problem.

Your inputs are much appreciated.

-TL

[hartcreek]

Were your samples caschecked? What size of paper?

[Beagle333]

Missouri Bullet Company doesn't sell powdercoated bullets. Those are Hi-Tek coated bullets. That's a different animal altogether. Powdercoating is a sprayed or tumbled-on polyester powder that is baked to cure it to a tough armor-like skin.
Hi-Tek is sort of a stain that colors the bullet and protects the barrel from the lead, but it is baked on in a double coat-bake process and it doesn't add nearly as much diameter (only a couple of microns). I don't know what it's made from. It does prevent leading, from what I have read, but I don't know how it affects rifle bullet accuracy.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Beagle333

Missouri Bullet Company doesn't sell powdercoated bullets. Those are Hi-Tek coated bullets. That's a different animal altogether. Powdercoating is a sprayed or tumbled-on polyester powder that is baked to cure it to a tough armor-like skin.
Hi-Tek is sort of a stain that colors the bullet and protects the barrel from the lead, but it is baked on in a double coat-bake process and it doesn't add nearly as much diameter (only a couple of microns). I don't know what it's made from. It does prevent leading, from what I have read, but I don't know how it affects rifle bullet accuracy.

Ah ha! I thought hi-tek was just their brand of powder coating. It surely seemed thin when I looked at it with magnifying glass, and wondered how well it would work. Perhaps their products don't work for me.

Thanks for the info.

-TL

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by hartcreek

Were your samples caschecked? What size of paper?

No gas check. They were just coated with what they call "hi-tek" coating.

I don't understand what you meant by size of paper.

Thanks.

-TL

[hartcreek]

No wonder they did not work.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by hartcreek

No wonder they did not work.

Because of no gas check? But they are coated and are supposed to be for 30-30 rifle. I thought they should work if the pressure was similar. I know rifle cast bullets don't necessarily have gas check.

-TL

[Beagle333]

I don't know why it wouldn't work in a 30-30. From what I have read, it shouldn't be too much pressure or velocity. And Hi-Tek isn't supposed to smoke or smell, if cured properly. Lots of people are shooting it, but I don't know how it affects accuracy. It can't be all that bad if some commercial guys have picked up the idea. I have some Hi-Tek for testing, and have coated a few bullets, but haven't shot any yet. I was sick during the entire Christmas break (17 days here) and so for the next three off days that I have now..... I'm catching up on casting and coating. Shooting will come a little later. I can shoot on wet drippy Spring days..... nice days are for meltin' lead!

[res45]

My first question is what groove dia. did the bore slug out at,a .309" dia. bullets may be to small in the old Eddy it may prefer a .310" or even a .311" dia. bullet for best results.

You can't just assume that a .309" dia.cast bullet will always work in a 30 cal. rifle especially an old Mil Surplus rifle. I shoot bullets sized to .311" in both my old Sav. 30-30 and Sav. 99 in 300 Sav. with or without the gas check applied with equally good results.

Also the Eddystone has a 1:10 twist rate and is designed to shoot heavier J bullets in the 200+ gr. range best,it's probably why your finding the heavier 200 gr. GC bullet shooting better than the 165's.

Here is some info from a post by Jerome Cooper


Col Harrison, writing for the NRA loading handbook did a thorough investigation on the performance of 30 cal cast bullets. One of the parameters that he established is that 1917 barrels with 5 groove rifling (which way the twist goes is not important) has lands that take up a major portion of the circumference of the bore.

As such the rifling requires a bullet with a shorter "body" (less than half the length of the bullet) that will ride in the grooves and a longer "nose"...which will ride on tops of the lands and be guided by them. The ideal bullet design (no pun intended) was 311334 (not any longer in production) Lyman still makes 311332 a close copy. Saeco's 301 version of the old RG-4 is also an excellent choice. RCBS and Lee also make designs of various weights that will work well too. Other molds such as Lyman 311291,311041 and 311284 as well as 311299 and 314299(if a larger diameter bullet is needed) have been reported to shoot good groups.

There is some variance in the measurements of 1917 bores so it is a good idea to slug your bore if possible to see exactly what internal dimensions you are dealing with before choosing a mold, or making adjustments to it later if necessary. Depending on BHN bullet hardness; the use of Lino or water quenching etc. velocities of up to 2200-2300 are easily attainable and will afford good target to hunting capability. With the current trend in ammo prices it makes getting into casting an interesting venture. The 1917 can be an accurate rifle if you get into making it one.

As to paper patching that a whole different ball game,you will find a wealth of info here on the subject in more detail than I can ever put in one post.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...aper-Patching&

[bangerjim]

Try REAL powder coating that you do at home, not some commercial stuff.

I shoot tons of PC'd bullets (ESPC and BBDT) and no smoke, no smell, no lead. You do need to GC thos high power rounds! What they provide is NOT PC.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by res45

My first question is what groove dia. did the bore slug out at,a .309" dia. bullets may be to small in the old Eddy it may prefer a .310" or even a .311" dia. bullet for best results.

You can't just assume that a .309" dia.cast bullet will always work in a 30 cal. rifle especially an old Mil Surplus rifle. I shoot bullets sized to .311" in both my old Sav. 30-30 and Sav. 99 in 300 Sav. with or without the gas check applied with equally good results.

Also the Eddystone has a 1:10 twist rate and is designed to shoot heavier J bullets in the 200+ gr. range best,it's probably why your finding the heavier 200 gr. GC bullet shooting better than the 165's.

Here is some info from a post by Jerome Cooper


Col Harrison, writing for the NRA loading handbook did a thorough investigation on the performance of 30 cal cast bullets. One of the parameters that he established is that 1917 barrels with 5 groove rifling (which way the twist goes is not important) has lands that take up a major portion of the circumference of the bore.

As such the rifling requires a bullet with a shorter "body" (less than half the length of the bullet) that will ride in the grooves and a longer "nose"...which will ride on tops of the lands and be guided by them. The ideal bullet design (no pun intended) was 311334 (not any longer in production) Lyman still makes 311332 a close copy. Saeco's 301 version of the old RG-4 is also an excellent choice. RCBS and Lee also make designs of various weights that will work well too. Other molds such as Lyman 311291,311041 and 311284 as well as 311299 and 314299(if a larger diameter bullet is needed) have been reported to shoot good groups.

There is some variance in the measurements of 1917 bores so it is a good idea to slug your bore if possible to see exactly what internal dimensions you are dealing with before choosing a mold, or making adjustments to it later if necessary. Depending on BHN bullet hardness; the use of Lino or water quenching etc. velocities of up to 2200-2300 are easily attainable and will afford good target to hunting capability. With the current trend in ammo prices it makes getting into casting an interesting venture. The 1917 can be an accurate rifle if you get into making it one.

As to paper patching that a whole different ball game,you will find a wealth of info here on the subject in more detail than I can ever put in one post.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...aper-Patching&

The barrel was slugged to be 0.3085". I know 0.310" bullets will probably work better, but casting or coating is not an option for me, and I have to buy commercially available.

Here is my logic to try this bullet. 200gr 0.309" gas checked non-coated works fine. 0.309" bullet diameter seems acceptable. The hi-tek coated samples are marketed for 30-30. A reduced 30-06 should have chamber pressure similar to 30-30. If the barrel can stabilized 200gr, it should be able to stabilize 165gr.

There must be something grossly wrong. It is not insufficient accuracy as there is no accuracy at all. There is no hole on the 2' x 2' target even at 25 yards. The bullet is like vaporized upon exiting the muzzle.

-TL

[tangolima]

I wish I could, but I can't.

Any suggestion on commercial casters who make powder coated rifle bullets?

Thanks.

-TL

[res45]

I would suggest dropping the velocity down to around 1400 to 1600 fps. and see how they do. I've vaped a few bullets in my time plain an powder coated even with a gas check at times pushing them to hard. If you ever get some on paper look for the little comet tails around the hole. That a sign there close to coming apart.

Another thing you have to think about is rpm's in a fast twist barrel you can basically vaporize the cast bullet when it leaves the muzzle pushing it to fast,this can be a function of bullet weight / velocity,acculturated obturation bu using a fast burning powder vs a slower burning powder.

This basically happens with the light weight cast bullets and fast twist per caliber. The only way to avoid that is to shoot light weight bullet slower or use heavier longer bearing surface bullets which will normally shoots slower anyways. A slower twist barrel would also be helpful but as in most cases you have to work with what you have.

Here is a good read on cast bullets and RPM. I had plans to work up some higher velocity loads for my 30 cal . rifles late last year but we had a few people and work retire or quit so I stayed pretty busy filling in and didn't get to do much tinkering. I'm up to around 1800 fps. with standard 170 gr. RN gas check bullets in my Mosin but I would like to push them faster as long as the accuracy holds.most likely I going to have to move up to a heavier bullet that better stabilized in the fast twist Mosin.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...RPM-Threshold&

I don't personally know of anyone selling powder coated bullets,most commercial casters are selling the Hi Tek coated bullets in the 165 or less grain range.

[Beagle333]

Big Sarge is the only commercial powdercoater that I am aware of. I don't know him personally and have never used his products, but I do see that he will sell you any amount from 1 to 500 and does offer three or four size options for .30 cal bullets. If you are definitely not going to coat your own..... you might try a handful of his, just to see. Again.... I don't know this fellow. I just saw the page and am passing it along.

Big Sarge's link

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by res45

I would suggest dropping the velocity down to around 1400 to 1600 fps. and see how they do. I've vaped a few bullets in my time plain an powder coated even with a gas check at times pushing them to hard. If you ever get some on paper look for the little comet tails around the hole. That a sign there close to coming apart.

Another thing you have to think about is rpm's in a fast twist barrel you can basically vaporize the cast bullet when it leaves the muzzle pushing it to fast,this can be a function of bullet weight / velocity,acculturated obturation bu using a fast burning powder vs a slower burning powder.

This basically happens with the light weight cast bullets and fast twist per caliber. The only way to avoid that is to shoot light weight bullet slower or use heavier longer bearing surface bullets which will normally shoots slower anyways. A slower twist barrel would also be helpful but as in most cases you have to work with what you have.

Here is a good read on cast bullets and RPM. I had plans to work up some higher velocity loads for my 30 cal . rifles late last year but we had a few people and work retire or quit so I stayed pretty busy filling in and didn't get to do much tinkering. I'm up to around 1800 fps. with standard 170 gr. RN gas check bullets in my Mosin but I would like to push them faster as long as the accuracy holds.most likely I going to have to move up to a heavier bullet that better stabilized in the fast twist Mosin.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...RPM-Threshold&

I don't personally know of anyone selling powder coated bullets,most commercial casters are selling the Hi Tek coated bullets in the 165 or less grain range.

Thanks res45. I will try lowering the speed further to the range you have suggested. Good point on rpm. I didn't think too much about it, and just assume what's good for 30-30 will be good for my 30-06.

-TL

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Beagle333

Big Sarge is the only commercial powdercoater that I am aware of. I don't know him personally and have never used his products, but I do see that he will sell you any amount from 1 to 500 and does offer three or four size options for .30 cal bullets. If you are definitely not going to coat your own..... you might try a handful of his, just to see. Again.... I don't know this fellow. I just saw the page and am passing it along.

Big Sarge's link

Thanks so much beagle. That's exactly what I have been searching for. I just order 2 of their 30 cal bullets as samples to try. I wish they would extend bullet size options to 0.314". I have SKS, mosin nagant, and smle with over sized bores. Will see how they work out.

-TL

[skizzums]

I believe they will work just fine... my two cents isn't even worth that much though

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by skizzums

I believe they will work just fine... my two cents isn't even worth that much though

My SKS is slugged to be 0.313". They have powder coated bullets up to 0.312". You think it will work? Thanks.

-TL

[skizzums]

i think they will work....okay. might not be the groups you were desiring, but should do well nonetheless

[hartcreek]

After re reading the posts...my guess is that your bullets were going over your target.

When I started shooting my hard casts in my 721 I was shooting clear over my three foot wide targets at 100 mtrs. Well of course I was as before I was using 180 grain bullets. It was comical when I zeroed in at 50 feet as my bullets were hitting seven feet to the left.

I had a heck of a time getting on paper with the 1/8 moa turrets on my scope.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by hartcreek

After re reading the posts...my guess is that your bullets were going over your target.

When I started shooting my hard casts in my 721 I was shooting clear over my three foot wide targets at 100 mtrs. Well of course I was as before I was using 180 grain bullets. It was comical when I zeroed in at 50 feet as my bullets were hitting seven feet to the left.

I had a heck of a time getting on paper with the 1/8 moa turrets on my scope.

2' x 2' target at 25 yard. I shot 5 rounds and there were no holes. I was using peep sight.

-TL

[hartcreek]

Yes Tango. I was using a 2x2 target at 50 feet and the bullets were cutting the grass on the old road bed 7 feet to the left.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by hartcreek

Yes Tango. I was using a 2x2 target at 50 feet and the bullets were cutting the grass on the old road bed 7 feet to the left.

7 'off at 50'. That's 8 degrees. A garden hose will shoot better than that. It cannot possibly be normal. I thought you were 1.5' off at 100 meters. It is equivalent to 15moa. Quite a bit but still within reason.

-TL

[hartcreek]

In my case I had just mounted a new scope and was using a round that I had never fired before in that rifle. If the light is not good and somethng is off it can be hard for one person to see where the bullets are hitting.

I am on paper now at 100 meters and 1.5 inches high but the next step it to sight in for 200 meters and then after that I should be good for 600.

You were using a peep with an unknown load. Sometimes it is best to make a bigger target and get closer. Once I get sighted in at 200m I can then adjust the blasted bore sighter I bought so I can use it on a .308 that I need to get sighted in.

[tangolima]

Some update on the hi-tek coated bullets from Missouri bullet company.

I further reduced the charge to shoot 1500 fps. It finally worked. 5 shots touching each other at 25 yards. Now I am in business. The load is pretty pleasant to the shoulder. It burns clean with very consistent speed. No smoke or smell. I will start monkeying with the load for best accuracy. Perhaps I can push them a bit faster, or not.

Thanks gentlemen for your help!

-TL