A Challenge to the 870 Express Bashers....

[Technosavant]

The original post is a ridiculous straw man that means nothing.

We've seen your comment earlier in the thread already. That nobody has really seen fit to reply ought to tell you something. Namely, that we didn't think much of it and continued on anyway.


Folks, when you make thousands upon thousands of something every year, even if your defect rate is a tiny 1%, you're still going to have a *lot* of guns out there with problems. In the information age that means it will get posted on the internet and it will be indexed by Google.

Every major manufacturer has slacked in the quality control department because people just don't want to pay three times more. They want the absolute lowest price, and that means corners get cut. I've read some iffy things about Mossberg too, but it seems that Mossberg's lower price point gives them a bit of an excuse, so people don't gripe as much.

If I had to pull a firearm out of the box and expect it to work straight off with zero break-in, I'd probably rather take my chances with a S&W revolver or Remington 870, and both of those have been blasted to a fare thee well on the internets for having more issues than in the past.

[Dave McC]

RC. Calling it a "Straw Man" doesn't change reality. While reports of junk 870s abound on the Net, actual sightings by me do not. None,in fact.

To misquote someone, "The irony of the Information Age is it has given new credence to misinformation"....

Every Express I run across may be esthetically uninspiring, but the things work.

While I see bad ink on the Express, real world experiences have not matched up to these.

And, if any of us are likely to have contact with a nasty, glitchy Express, it's me. I'm known as a long time 870 pilot.Modding three shotgun fora leaves
me quite visible also.

And, I want to find the lemons. I'd like to really see what is happening to one of my long time favorites. And to report same if I do.

Are there things I do not like about Remington's recent past and the Express in particular?

Yes. QC definitely slipped for a while, and non concentric barrels and misaligned/botched choke tube threading was rife. That seems to have gone away.

And, non Light Contour barrels such as are used in the Express are way too heavy for best work. Old style Remington barrels are far superior and so are the LCs. 4 oz of weight in a barrel makes a huge difference in handling.

As for fixing them, I am no smith. However, I did serve as institutional armorer for a while. I'll show up, if anyone calls me on this, with....

Cordless drill, dowel and 4/0 steel wool for a chamber and cone polish. And if time allows,run it up the mag tube also to clean up any crud that might impede feeding.

Crockstick, for removing flash from the action bars and slightly radiusing them.

Basic tools, including a non marring action pin punch. Low tech, probably a golf tee or chopstick.

Lube,scrubber,etc.

You show up with your problem child Express. I check it out and let you shoot Frankenstein to establish what an 870 SHOULD feel like and how it should function. I tear down your 870 and show you how and what to look for and what to do.

Then I fix it or buy it. You win either way. I spend less than 30 minutes helping out someone and/or picking up a fixer upper for parts or giggles.

Since I work with kids,maybe it will get the stock shortened to 12" LOP, CerroKoted bright pink, and have Hello Kitty stickers all over and used to delight some little girl's heart.....

And to the guy griping about getting $150 for a gun they paid $300 for, sorry, you wouldn't expect to own a car for a month and then sell it for what you paid the dealer, would you?

[mathman]

And to the guy griping about getting $150 for a gun they paid $300 for, sorry, you wouldn't expect to own a car for a month and then sell it for what you paid the dealer, would you?

I wasn't griping...in fact, I mentioned in my first post that I would take you up on it if I lived closer...I simply gave that as a possible reason that someone else might not want to take you up on your offer.

I am really mixed on this one...and I hope that my posts indicate that. One the one hand, I know that things are exaggerated on the net...but on the other hand, clearly there are some issues.

To be honest, I don't really give a hoot. I just buy other shotguns now.

[colostomyclown]

It's pretty much confirmed that there are a lot of bad Expresses being put out. Hopefully Remington has taken heed of that. Yes, there are bad apples here and there with any gun and any gun mnfctr, but I personally have gone 3 for 3 on bad apple Expresses in the last 2 1/2 years alone. Am I the only one? I've had enough experience with them to know I'll choose to avoid them. I have owned and handled Wingmasters and 870p's and would be proud to own another.


And for the record, when someone says "870" I have the decency to think of an 870p or Wingmaster rather than an Express. I prefer Mossbergs for many reasons, MOST of which are personal preference, but in all honesty the quality, and performances differences going from a Maverick to a 590a1 don't vary as much in my opinion going from an Express to a well loved Wingmaster, and it's all done much cheaper when it comes to retail prices. Retail on an 870, especially an "Express tactical" or 870 Police Magnum are way off base in my opinion. A 475 dollar M590a1 18.5" with Speedfeed stock and Max100 extension WALKS on a 870 Express Tactical for around the same price. It isn't even close.

All this said, a good 870 is a FINE shotgun and one deserving of the reputation. We must however, refrain from "drinking the kool aid", so to speak. Dave has an immense amount of hands on experience, therefore his opinions are very valid. The guy who's spent a few hours in a gun shop hearing about how the 870 is the be-all end-all and that Mossbergs are junk, well...that person has some brushing up to do.

[swinokur]

You won't be seeing me anytime soon Dave.

me neither

[JNewell]

If you go to the right places on the world wierd, sorry, wide, web, you can come to the conclusion that anything is junk. Most computer owners seem to believe that the plural of "anecdote" is "data."

I'm still driving my Toyota - how 'bout you? If I let posts on internet fora guide me, I'd probably live in a cave and be using stone tools without the benefit of even a fire.

I don't think I've really seen it discussed, but my impression is that the Express line was in fact subjected to "cost saving" changes by Remington at one point, but many or all of these have been addressed by changes, and the "premium" 870s have also seen some changes that bring them closer to the Express. Examples: Express magazine tubes that I've seen recently no longer have the hated dimples in the magazine tube. Express barrels once again have the ball detent to retain the magazine cap. The 870P guns now ship with synthetic trigger plates rather than the "compressed metal" (whatever that meant) trigger plates of former days.

I think it'd be a mistake to rule out a recently-manufactured Express 870 when shopping for pump guns.

[Regolith]

"compressed metal" (whatever that meant)

Probably Metal Injection Molding. It's a way of making high-tolerance metal parts cheaply. Some people think that parts made this way are not as strong as those made with traditional methods.

[Maromero]

Dave: That's puting your money where your mouth is. Any takers yet?

[556A2]

You know Remington is putting out garbage now. You have this un natural fascination with the 870. Fine. They are GREAT guns when they work. The problem is that the new 870 expresses often don't. And, you know that.

Use Google. To search 870 jamming, 870 problem, 870 extraction ...

I'm sorry buddy, but that is straight BS you are peddling.

As I said in the other thread, nearly 99% of the time it is caused because new owners fail to remove the factory preservative out the barrel. It needs to literally be scrubbed out, or you will have extraction problems.

[TxGun]

I currently have 11 870s. All Wingmasters, the "youngest one" is from the late 1980s. I love 'em. Great shotguns. I rank them with, or very close to, the other great pump guns...Model 12, Model 31, Model 37. The new Expresses? I've taken a few in through trades over the years. I never keep them. They are a poor...make that very poor...substitute for the older Wingmasters, IMO. Their fit/finish is just subpar. Most function just fine...but it seems pretty clear that there are more problems with 870s now, traceable of course, to the Express model. My personal experience bears this out. JME, of course. But even those that function OK...how can you have much pride of ownership? They look like just what they are...a bargain basement/economy model 870. But the cost difference, you say? LOL. You can find good used Wingmasters, in the 90%+ range, for the cost of a new Express. Remington took a definite step back with the Express...to compete with other makes, of course. Personally, I think they stepped back/down a little too far. Again, all JMO.

[FEG]

You can find good used Wingmasters, in the 90%+ range, for the cost of a new Express.

For me, that's the bottom line. Older production Wingmasters are as cheap and common as fill dirt. I don't think I've ever seen a 12 ga. go for more than $250, even nowadays.

[FEG]

I stand at Post 3 on a trap range shooting at either trap or wobble singles. I load a shell directly into the chamber and close the action slowly. I check to see if it locks up and feeds the shells correctly, then load another in the magazine. I call for the bird, shoot and gently cycle the action.

A gentle shuck,BTW, will often glitch a pump. They were meant to be racked with vigor.

I repeat a couple times, racking hard to see if that jams things up. Once done, and after most targets break well, I hand it back to the owner and tell them it's a good shotgun. And, I mean it.

This has happened perhaps 20 times in the last year or so.Each Express has functioned 100% and targets break with monotonous regularity.

There are two OBVIOUS problems with this argument.

1) Most people don't head for the trap range with a shotgun that isn't working. Yes, some people won't know it isn't working before then, but this is not a random sample by any strecth of the imagination.

2) Even assuming this was a random sample, 20 times is far too small of a sample size to make any conclusions whatsoever about a mass-produced model.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I couldn't care less, really. However, you have "proven" absolutely nothing.

To be fair, most people don't post on the internet when their latest purchase works 100% as expected. The internet complaints are not a random sample, either, even if 100% were completely accurate (no operator error, etc.).

[JNewell]

Probably Metal Injection Molding. It's a way of making high-tolerance metal parts cheaply. Some people think that parts made this way are not as strong as those made with traditional methods.

Possibly, but these go back to before MIM was invented. It could also be some form of sintered metal or any number of other processes. At any rate, it doesn't sound like a conventional casting, which would have been my guess. As far as strength goes, the only application that seems to be really poorly suited for MIM is springs (like 1911 extractors).

All that is "for what it's worth," which ain't much, because although folks talk a lot about trigger guards, neither the metal nor the plastic seem to fail except under extraordinary circumstances.

[johnbt]

"I'm still driving my Toyota - how 'bout you?"

Yep, sold the '06 Avalon and bought a new $40k Highlander Limited in January. Thought I was getting an Indiana-made car, but no, they sent me a made in Japan 2010.

Still have my '93 Express Magnum too.

Shuck 'em like you're mad at 'em.

John

[JNewell]

Yep.

Shuck 'em like you're mad at 'em.

Umm, that thought probably goes in the other thread, the one about weak ejection???

[Wildalaska]

To misquote someone, "The irony of the Information Age is it has given new credence to misinformation"....

I prefer "The irony of the Information Age is to allow idiots to be experts"

WildthatsnotdirectedtoanyoneAlaska TM

[mathman]

WildthatsnotdirectedtoanyoneAlaska

Suuuuurrrrre it isn't...

[Dave McC]

Maromero, no takers. And I do not expect any. I made the offer more to show how rare lemon 870s are than to cop some cheap shotguns. But , one can hope, heh,heh...

FEG, I get to unglitch a fair amount of other people's shotguns at the range. Mostly divers autos that are under or over lubed and undercleaned. Hardly ever an 870, though, of any model.

IIRC, 4 or 5 of that sample were brand new, fired first that day.

20 is a small sample, but if all 20 work as expected, a reasonable person may deduce that the lemon ratio is under 5%.

Re used WMs, I prefer them. Great value and since it takes decades of high volume shooting to wear one out,little risk comes with the purchase of one.

Less than a decade ago and chronicled in the archives is my acquiring a much used 870 TB trap gun and putting about 20K rounds through it before selling it to a friend. Other than a couple new firing pin springs, all that happened to the TB was some small increases in the wear marks. Only Heaven knows how many rounds that thing has fired.

I'd like it back, but such is not to be....

Back to Expresses....

Certainly the sheer number of 870s means some had left Ilion without all issues properly handled. But,the number seems to be grossly over reported.

And I'd like to see just how many there are. None, so far.

[TxGun]

Meh...the problem with the $150 offer is that anybody can put the gun on gunbroker or simply take it to a gunshow and sell it for that with less hassle. Almost any modern pump in just decent overall condition will bring that much. Not much of a "deal" there.

[MAX100]

Haven't you heard....The guys at the Remington service centers are like Maytag repair men, they sit around with nothing to do all day.

You never hear of anyone complaining about their 870 that was made more than 10 years ago. I wonder why.

Some of the newer Remington 870 Express have problems with shells sticking in the chamber and most need more than just a good chamber cleaning & polish. The 870 Tactical Express with the gray powder coat finish all have a problem with the coating coming off in places.

Overall the 870 Express is a pretty good budget made shotgun. If I wanted one I would buy a used one made more than 10 years ago. One made more than 20 years ago would be even better. Hang on to those older 870s because they don't make them like they use to.


GC

[556A2]

Haven't you heard....The guys at the Remington service centers are like Maytag repair men, they sit around with nothing to do all day.

Says the guy who rabidly defends the Norinco 870 knock-offs.

[Bamashooter]

i have an 870 that i purchased new in 98 a express super mag that shoots 3 1/2 in shells. me and my 11yr. old son take it to turkey shoots every year and he has never had a problem ejecting a spent shell. by the way, with a tru-glo super full choke it will put meat in the deep freeze almost every time.

[Head-Space]

Straw Man argument is when you set up a premise that you can easily shoot down. The metaphor refers to setting up a "scarecrow" or similar "dummy" and then knocking it down.

So that's not what's going on here. The guy is saying he's shot Rem. 870's and they function. That's not a straw man argument. If he was saying, "You can't hit anything with this gun." and then hitting targets with it, that's a "straw man argument."

Be that as it may --

Seems like a fair number of egos are wrapped up in going online and deriding firearms as being "junk." I don't like Glocks, but they're not junk. I just don't like them.

Trap grade Rem. 870's are winning matches these days. I have an 870 Wingmaster, nicer than an Express. I have a Rem. 700 PSS. It drives tacks.

Jennings, Bryco are junk. HiPoint is mud fence ugly and a poor design, but I'm not sure if they're "junk" or not. I have no basis for an opinion. I've never used one.

Where's the whipping the dead horse gif?

[zip22]

If not a straw man, there are certainly other logical fallacies in this argument. Appeal to probability (if a percentage are defective, i would have had to see one) and argument from ignorance (since I don't see defective 870s, there aren't any) are two issues I notice.

Do we really think that on a forum with 7,000 active members (active members in the shotgun area less than that, people who have read this thread even less than that) you are really getting a good sample of 870 owners? Even if there were people who saw your offer, how many do you think are anywhere near your location in order to make travelling there feasible or worth the trip?

I agree that the internet magnifies bad experiences, but simply dismissing all of them all as user error is foolish.

Another part of the argument is "it's not Remington, it's the distributors and retailers." At least in my line of work, that is still Remington's problem.

[Dustin0]

I have had problem with shells stuck in my 870 express. I got away from the cheap fed. wal mart and remington game loads. Started reloading STS and AA hulls never had a problem again. Other than lefting my head off the gun on the trap line.