Blackhawk Serpa Holster = Negligent Discharge? - Page 3

lechiffre · July 4, 2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

It DOES seem that the location of the 1911 safety and the 511 thumblock holster are a BAD combination.

I would say so as well.

That and don't rely on a safety device.

DeepEastKilla · July 4, 2011, 10:41 AM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=455923&page=2

theres the thread i started last night when this whole incident went down.

The full story is that "tex" was at the range filming a video and after practicing with the glock and the thumb-drive holster he switched to the 1911 and the serpa. He had already done quite a few "takes" the one where the incident occurs was said to be the last one he was going to do that day. When he drew he accidentally pushed down with his thumb, disengaging the safety. He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The combination of the safety off, the extra pressure on the trigger area, and the curled finger made a bad mixture and caused what you see.

now for a bit of comedy. Tex isnt actually from Texas, rather Illinois. He has taken courses at "tactical response" and practices defensive shooting, yet his state has no CCW right : ) I talk to him daily and let it be known that he probably wont live this one down without a good amount of ridicule : )

Double Naught Spy · July 4, 2011, 10:41 AM

I watched this earlier and have gone back. I am not seeing the release issue that Tex refers to in the video. Usually when folks fail to release their holsters, they get a draw that yanks up on the holster and this doesn't show up. As best as I can tell, whatever problems he may or may not have had with the holster are long gone by the time the gun clears the holster and you can plainly seem him put his finger inside the trigger guard and the gun then discharging. If he had a problem with the holster, it may have mixed up his draw cadence, but otherwise, the holster seems to be a non-issue here.

DeepEastKilla · July 4, 2011, 10:42 AM

The full story is that "tex" was at the range filming a video and after practicing with the glock and the thumb-drive holster he switched to the 1911 and the serpa. He had already done quite a few "takes" the one where the incident occurs was said to be the last one he was going to do that day. When he drew he accidentally pushed down with his thumb, disengaging the safety. He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The combination of the safety off, the extra pressure on the trigger area, and the curled finger made a bad mixture and caused what you see.

now for a bit of comedy. Tex isnt actually from Texas, rather Illinois. He has taken courses at "tactical response" and practices defensive shooting, yet his state has no CCW right : ) I talk to him daily and let it be known that he probably wont live this one down without a good amount of ridicule : )

Ozzieman · July 4, 2011, 10:55 AM

I thank the OP for sharing this and the shooter for being man enough to place the blame where the blame is due.
The real blame goes to placing his trigger finger on the trigger before the gun was clear of his body and on the target. You can see his finger go into the trigger guard before the gun has cleared the holster.
He's lucky he still has a leg.
I will also give him credit for the safe way he handled the gun after the accidental discharge he did not fire the gun a second time and kept the gun pointed in a safe manner and set it down. How many of us could do the same.
I have done this same exercise many times over the years but first do it with an empty gun 20 or 30 times and I keep it slow. The reason I stopped doing it was for the same reason. I shot myself.
Not like he did but I had one come back off of the back stop and hit me in the stomach. It didn’t puncture the skin but hurt like heck and burnt the skin. Had I been hit in the eye it probably would have been another outcome.
Talking to experienced people that go into harm’s way it’s not speed that wins. Its training what you shoot the way you carry and make sure the first round count. If you look at most shootings the innocent party does not get the first shot off in many cases. I don’t know the percentage. But quick draw is for the old western movies and Jerry Miculek.

Double Naught Spy · July 4, 2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Go back to the video at the start of this thread. Go to the slo-mo section. His finger WAS straight. But in trying to "go fast", he applied more muscle and ended up with enough curl to crank one off in his damn leg.

This sounds right.

DeepEastKilla · July 4, 2011, 11:14 AM

i have to thank you guys. i have posted this on various other forums and the replies have ranged from good to horrible. while there are always a few bad apples i have found that The Firing Line is one of the best forums out there as far as helpfulness, kindness, and a non know-it-all or my-way-or-the-highway attitude. Its the reason i most frequent The Firing Line whether just lerking or posting this forum is my choice. thanks guys.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 4, 2011, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rugermisticness

I think his knee was farther than the target was Fingers out of the trigger gaurd

He acknowledges this in his comments, and he also honestly calls it an ND rather than an AD.

Personally, I think it shows a poorly designed holster. I have never even considered one of that type so I'm not well familiar with it, but from his description it seems it requires two operations to release the firearm ... and with a 1911 each of the two involved devices is positioned such as to create the possibility of unintentionally actuated a fire control.

The thumb slipped and released the thumb safety. So he WAS carrying in Condition 1, which is correct with a 1911. The firearm WAS safed in the holster.

Then the trigger finger slipped into the trigger guard window upon drawing. That should not happen. If the release button is properly located, the finger will end up properly positioned in an extended orientation above the trigger guard and trigger as the gun leaves the holster. With this one, the location seems to position the trigger finger in line with the trigger.

I'll have to see if my local gun shop carries those holsters. I think I'll stick with quality leather holsters from name makers.

secret_agent_man · July 4, 2011, 11:50 AM

This incident illustrates the propensity for negligent/accidental discharges by weapons with light trigger pulls. The tried and proven DA/SA trigger action still found on Walther AS pistols inhibit things like this from happening.

**Tom Servo** · July 4, 2011, 11:53 AM

I agree with Jim. Part of the blame rests on the shooter, and part of the blame rests on the design. I'm impressed with the shooter for taking responsibility.

While I'm sure the Serpa release is safe when used correctly and fully operational, what concerns me is when it isn't. I've seen a few stuck guns, and removing them is a harrowing experience: basically, you're jamming the release down as hard as you can with your fingertip in the trigger guard. No thanks.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 4, 2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nocturnus31

Yeah I agree it may not be the best place for the release but that is where it is. I know

Which is why it's a bad holster design.

If the release were well-designed, it would be positioned such that as the draw is completed, the trigger/release finger would automatically end up extended along the side of the receiver, above the trigger guard window.

GoOfY-FoOt · July 4, 2011, 12:08 PM

As much disdain as I have for movie quotes, Bob Lee said it best..."Slow is smooth - Smooth is fast..."

It is NOT the holster's fault, I use a Blackhawk Serpa for my EDC, and I practice 'quick-draw', and like someone said, the release button on that holster places your finger parallel to the slide just above the trigger. A conscious effort to move your finger down and into the guard would be required to pull the trigger. Just curling your finger would not do it.

He was obviously taking a shortcut by placing is finger on the trigger before he acquired his target, breaking the golden rule of firearms.

I'm glad he is OK and that he was man enough to show the world his mistakes.

smince · July 4, 2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

He has taken courses at "tactical response"

And the irony here is that Tactical Response was the first training group I read about banning the SERPA from use.

C Philip · July 4, 2011, 12:18 PM

I've personally seen people at the range and at competitions get stuck on the draw using this holster. Makes everyone cringe.

If you insist on using a retention holster like this, go to competitions with it (if it's allowed) and see how you do under stress. Practicing at home is not the same. Under stress, your coordination drops, making the draw easier to mess up. If the stress of a competition makes you mess up, imagine what the stress of an actual self defense scenario will do.

pjcforpres2020 · July 4, 2011, 12:20 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJ...eature=related

For those that read the earlier post asking if the video still exists, it does.

Ben Towe · July 4, 2011, 12:26 PM

I'm of the opinion that the Serpa system is a fine way to get killed in a gun fight. If you start your draw a little too fast then you have to stop, push down and trip the release... no thanks. I'll stick to non Serpa kydex or leather. I'm not a cop or a professional gunfighter so I don't need serious retention.

GoOfY-FoOt · July 4, 2011, 12:31 PM

I think what a lot of folks fail to realize is that, there is a small tension screw located on the retention portion of the holster. This can be adjusted to create an easier or stiffer 'hold' on the weapon. With a little testing, one can find a comfort spot on that tension and draw effortlessly.

Second-nature is second-nature. Gross motor skills or not.

Don Glock · July 4, 2011, 12:59 PM

at least he didn't have that serpa in the crossdraw position......

DeepEastKilla · July 4, 2011, 01:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBvt-...eature=related

start at around 2:20 and its just abut the exact thing that happened.

the duck of death · July 4, 2011, 03:56 PM

Serpa--to easy to miss a draw in competition. There are better holsters for CCW.

Danger--yep, if you don't keep your finger off the trigger. But that applies to all holsters.

dajowi · July 4, 2011, 05:25 PM

What struck me was that he didn't drop his gun immediately after shooting himself.

ConlawBloganon · July 4, 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

I do not understand civilians using retention holsters.

Ever open carry in a rough area?

Anyway, I'm rather fond of my Serpa holster. I've put a few thousand rounds down the pipe since I got it, including some IDPA competitions, but I'm certainly no expert. Personally, I have not had a problem with getting on the trigger too early due to holster design, although it is certainly something I will have to look out for.

Sleuth · July 4, 2011, 05:54 PM

1. "Tex" deserves creidt for posting this.
2. The Serpa does create an unsafe condition. There are many who use this holster and train intensly with it, under stress. There are many more who draw only with an unloaded gun, or (relativly) slowly. The ND's seem to happen under high stress, as in this case.
If, as noted, this was the last 'take' of the day, Tex was probably going as fast as possible. A minor glitch in the draw resulted in a 'clutch' response - using more force than needed. I have been in situations where I have done the same - tried to overpower the system (though not on a draw - yet).

There is another posting on the net of a gent who said he was being robbed ( a high stress situation), went to draw from a Serpa, and shot himself in the foot. He includes pictures of the hole in his shoe and foot. The bad guys ran off at the sound of the shot.

The Serpa is the only holster cited [U]by name[U] in several ND's. I do not use one, and will not allow one on my ranges.

smince · July 4, 2011, 06:02 PM

FWIW. I carry a Glock AIWB daily.

I would much rather have my gun pointed at my crotch/femoral artery in a good kydex holster (I use Dale Fricke) than have my gun pointed at my butt in a SERPA.

the duck of death · July 4, 2011, 06:12 PM

*QUOTE*
A minor glitch in the draw

A finger on the trigger on the draw is MORE than a "MINOR GLITCH".

July 4, 2011, 10:41 AM	#53
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I watched this earlier and have gone back. I am not seeing the release issue that Tex refers to in the video. Usually when folks fail to release their holsters, they get a draw that yanks up on the holster and this doesn't show up. As best as I can tell, whatever problems he may or may not have had with the holster are long gone by the time the gun clears the holster and you can plainly seem him put his finger inside the trigger guard and the gun then discharging. If he had a problem with the holster, it may have mixed up his draw cadence, but otherwise, the holster seems to be a non-issue here. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

July 4, 2011, 11:53 AM	#60
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	I agree with Jim. Part of the blame rests on the shooter, and part of the blame rests on the design. I'm impressed with the shooter for taking responsibility. While I'm sure the Serpa release is safe when used correctly and fully operational, what concerns me is when it isn't. I've seen a few stuck guns, and removing them is a harrowing experience: basically, you're jamming the release down as hard as you can with your fingertip in the trigger guard. No thanks. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

July 4, 2011, 12:08 PM	#62
GoOfY-FoOt Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2011 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 463	As much disdain as I have for movie quotes, Bob Lee said it best..."Slow is smooth - Smooth is fast..." It is NOT the holster's fault, I use a Blackhawk Serpa for my EDC, and I practice 'quick-draw', and like someone said, the release button on that holster places your finger parallel to the slide just above the trigger. A conscious effort to move your finger down and into the guard would be required to pull the trigger. Just curling your finger would not do it. He was obviously taking a shortcut by placing is finger on the trigger before he acquired his target, breaking the golden rule of firearms. I'm glad he is OK and that he was man enough to show the world his mistakes. __________________ BILL @ Strongside Arms, Inc. - 1479 W. C-48 Bushnell, FL 33513 352-568-0017 -------------------------------------------------- “Why worry when you can pray? He [God] is the Whole, you are a part. Coordinate your abilities with the Whole.” ~Edgar Cayce~

July 4, 2011, 12:26 PM	#66
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	I'm of the opinion that the Serpa system is a fine way to get killed in a gun fight. If you start your draw a little too fast then you have to stop, push down and trip the release... no thanks. I'll stick to non Serpa kydex or leather. I'm not a cop or a professional gunfighter so I don't need serious retention. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

July 4, 2011, 12:31 PM	#67
GoOfY-FoOt Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2011 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 463	I think what a lot of folks fail to realize is that, there is a small tension screw located on the retention portion of the holster. This can be adjusted to create an easier or stiffer 'hold' on the weapon. With a little testing, one can find a comfort spot on that tension and draw effortlessly. Second-nature is second-nature. Gross motor skills or not. __________________ BILL @ Strongside Arms, Inc. - 1479 W. C-48 Bushnell, FL 33513 352-568-0017 -------------------------------------------------- “Why worry when you can pray? He [God] is the Whole, you are a part. Coordinate your abilities with the Whole.” ~Edgar Cayce~

July 4, 2011, 10:41 AM	#52
DeepEastKilla Member Join Date: October 10, 2009 Posts: 81	http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=455923&page=2 theres the thread i started last night when this whole incident went down. The full story is that "tex" was at the range filming a video and after practicing with the glock and the thumb-drive holster he switched to the 1911 and the serpa. He had already done quite a few "takes" the one where the incident occurs was said to be the last one he was going to do that day. When he drew he accidentally pushed down with his thumb, disengaging the safety. He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The combination of the safety off, the extra pressure on the trigger area, and the curled finger made a bad mixture and caused what you see. now for a bit of comedy. Tex isnt actually from Texas, rather Illinois. He has taken courses at "tactical response" and practices defensive shooting, yet his state has no CCW right : ) I talk to him daily and let it be known that he probably wont live this one down without a good amount of ridicule : )

July 4, 2011, 10:42 AM	#54
DeepEastKilla Member Join Date: October 10, 2009 Posts: 81	The full story is that "tex" was at the range filming a video and after practicing with the glock and the thumb-drive holster he switched to the 1911 and the serpa. He had already done quite a few "takes" the one where the incident occurs was said to be the last one he was going to do that day. When he drew he accidentally pushed down with his thumb, disengaging the safety. He said that the weapon hesitated to release from the holster and he pushed harder with his finger and pulled a bit harder so it would come out. The combination of the safety off, the extra pressure on the trigger area, and the curled finger made a bad mixture and caused what you see. now for a bit of comedy. Tex isnt actually from Texas, rather Illinois. He has taken courses at "tactical response" and practices defensive shooting, yet his state has no CCW right : ) I talk to him daily and let it be known that he probably wont live this one down without a good amount of ridicule : )

July 4, 2011, 10:55 AM	#55
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I thank the OP for sharing this and the shooter for being man enough to place the blame where the blame is due. The real blame goes to placing his trigger finger on the trigger before the gun was clear of his body and on the target. You can see his finger go into the trigger guard before the gun has cleared the holster. He's lucky he still has a leg. I will also give him credit for the safe way he handled the gun after the accidental discharge he did not fire the gun a second time and kept the gun pointed in a safe manner and set it down. How many of us could do the same. I have done this same exercise many times over the years but first do it with an empty gun 20 or 30 times and I keep it slow. The reason I stopped doing it was for the same reason. I shot myself. Not like he did but I had one come back off of the back stop and hit me in the stomach. It didn’t puncture the skin but hurt like heck and burnt the skin. Had I been hit in the eye it probably would have been another outcome. Talking to experienced people that go into harm’s way it’s not speed that wins. Its training what you shoot the way you carry and make sure the first round count. If you look at most shootings the innocent party does not get the first shot off in many cases. I don’t know the percentage. But quick draw is for the old western movies and Jerry Miculek.

July 4, 2011, 11:14 AM	#57
DeepEastKilla Member Join Date: October 10, 2009 Posts: 81	i have to thank you guys. i have posted this on various other forums and the replies have ranged from good to horrible. while there are always a few bad apples i have found that The Firing Line is one of the best forums out there as far as helpfulness, kindness, and a non know-it-all or my-way-or-the-highway attitude. Its the reason i most frequent The Firing Line whether just lerking or posting this forum is my choice. thanks guys.

July 4, 2011, 11:50 AM	#59
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	This incident illustrates the propensity for negligent/accidental discharges by weapons with light trigger pulls. The tried and proven DA/SA trigger action still found on Walther AS pistols inhibit things like this from happening.

July 4, 2011, 12:18 PM	#64
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	I've personally seen people at the range and at competitions get stuck on the draw using this holster. Makes everyone cringe. If you insist on using a retention holster like this, go to competitions with it (if it's allowed) and see how you do under stress. Practicing at home is not the same. Under stress, your coordination drops, making the draw easier to mess up. If the stress of a competition makes you mess up, imagine what the stress of an actual self defense scenario will do.

July 4, 2011, 12:20 PM	#65
pjcforpres2020 Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Posts: 26	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJ...eature=related For those that read the earlier post asking if the video still exists, it does.

July 4, 2011, 12:59 PM	#68
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	at least he didn't have that serpa in the crossdraw position......

July 4, 2011, 01:48 PM	#69
DeepEastKilla Member Join Date: October 10, 2009 Posts: 81	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBvt-...eature=related start at around 2:20 and its just abut the exact thing that happened.

July 4, 2011, 03:56 PM	#70
the duck of death Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2002 Posts: 299	Serpa--to easy to miss a draw in competition. There are better holsters for CCW. Danger--yep, if you don't keep your finger off the trigger. But that applies to all holsters.

July 4, 2011, 05:25 PM	#71
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	What struck me was that he didn't drop his gun immediately after shooting himself.

July 4, 2011, 05:54 PM	#73
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	1. "Tex" deserves creidt for posting this. 2. The Serpa does create an unsafe condition. There are many who use this holster and train intensly with it, under stress. There are many more who draw only with an unloaded gun, or (relativly) slowly. The ND's seem to happen under high stress, as in this case. If, as noted, this was the last 'take' of the day, Tex was probably going as fast as possible. A minor glitch in the draw resulted in a 'clutch' response - using more force than needed. I have been in situations where I have done the same - tried to overpower the system (though not on a draw - yet). There is another posting on the net of a gent who said he was being robbed ( a high stress situation), went to draw from a Serpa, and shot himself in the foot. He includes pictures of the hole in his shoe and foot. The bad guys ran off at the sound of the shot. The Serpa is the only holster cited [U]by name[U] in several ND's. I do not use one, and will not allow one on my ranges. __________________ Sleuth

July 4, 2011, 06:02 PM	#74
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	FWIW. I carry a Glock AIWB daily. I would much rather have my gun pointed at my crotch/femoral artery in a good kydex holster (I use Dale Fricke) than have my gun pointed at my butt in a SERPA.

July 4, 2011, 06:12 PM	#75
the duck of death Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2002 Posts: 299	QUOTE A minor glitch in the draw A finger on the trigger on the draw is MORE than a "MINOR GLITCH".