September 16, 2008, 05:52 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: July 21, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 17
|
CCW: Analyze this
I haven't read this particular forum much at all, if it's the incorrect place to post this, please accept my apologies and move it to where it belongs.
I do not yet have a CCW permit, but have taken a couple classes toward that process. I've read several recent accounts of encounters that could have ended very differently had the victim been carrying. Perhaps I need to find and take additional training for actual handgun defense tactics, but in the mean time, I read a blog today written by a guy who was mugged and shot three times. Aside from the fact that this happened in Washington, DC, where CCW is not yet legal, after reading the description of the encounter, what and when would have been the proper and legal action to take? I realize that there are 50 sets of state laws that may influence that answer... let's assume we're using Utah, since they probably have the most familiarity out there. In this particular case, the shooting happened as the situation seemed to diffuse, but then took a sudden turn for the worse. http://www.brianbeutler.com/2008/09/a_brief_but_exc/ Not my intent to start any debates... I really want to know what more experience has to say here! Thanks, TFred |
September 16, 2008, 06:02 PM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: July 21, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 17
|
Oh... I just read "A note concerning scenarios"... I guess this post fits in that category... hope it is OK, if not, I will not be offended if it gets closed...
TFred |
September 16, 2008, 06:25 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
|
Hey, a fellow Virginian
Like you, im still waiting on my CCW, so I guess im not the best person to ask, but I like putting in my 2 cents... I open carry when im out at night and plan on hitting some rougher parts of town. That usually tells people to find someone who will put up less of a fight... Ive had a few homeless people who started turning violent but changed their minds pretty quick when they saw what my right hand started reaching for... From what I know of Virginian law, brandishing is holding a weapon in a threatening manner, which has sometimes been interpreted as putting your hand on your weapon (even without drawing) so you have to be careful. But I expect in a mugging where no weapon is drawn on you, a simple reaching for your weapon and getting it ready to be pulled would be ample to "diffuse" the situation. If it turns violent you'll at least be ready... Thats probably what I would have done in the above scenario, though not having been there I couldnt say for sure... Most people say just to do what the mugger tells you to do, and sure most people get out of muggings just fine, but I hate putting my life on those "what ifs" (ie what if he actually shoots me).
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book |
September 16, 2008, 06:55 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 23, 2007
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 1,918
|
He wasn't mugged. The assailants gave-up on the mugging and shot him as they were leaving. Despite what the victim has assumed about the situation, and their motivation, I suspect he'd have been shot regardless.
That said, I don't know what he could have done - two kids, no weapon apparent, no violence [ prior to the shooting ]. He probably should have high-tailed it when he saw the one passing the pistol to the other. When I'd lived in DC many moons ago, Adams Morgan was the type of neighborhood where muggers would go for an easy mark - lot's of affluent passive white students and young professionals. That sounds like what this incident was. Last edited by Casimer; September 17, 2008 at 01:16 AM. |
September 16, 2008, 06:57 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 534
|
Quote:
"I'm sure I'll die one day, but it won't be for lack of shooting back"
__________________
---Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.--- ---Enlightenment is the ability to take infinite pains--- MOLON LABE
|
|
September 16, 2008, 07:18 PM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 7, 2007
Posts: 342
|
KLRANGL says:
Quote:
You go into areas of town where you expect trouble...by your own choice. You also carry a gun openly for the express purpose of intimidating others, and you have on more than a couple of occasions reached for it as a means of escalating the intimidation. You're one of those people who make the case for more restrictive gun control, fella. And it's funny how I've lived most of my life in major cities and I've never had a single homeless guy ever spontaneously turn violent and approach me. Are you sure that you're not puffing a bit here? |
|
September 16, 2008, 07:34 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
|
Lee, I appreciate your concern, but you dont know me so please dont be too harsh in judgment...
Yes I go into rougher parts of town on occasion... For one, I live in one (someone was shot and killed 30ft from my house a few weeks back actually). Its not a bad neighborhood, but its not great... Its one of those was bad but is getting much better neighborhoods. Also my friends live in some rougher parts (we're college kids after all)... Please dont suggest not visiting them just for the sake of "being safe." No I dont carry a gun open for the express purpose of intimidating others... I carry it for the express purpose of defending myself and my friends until I get my CCW... Its "intimidating" effect as you call it was a side effect I noticed and commented on... Yes im sure im not puffing a bit... I have been asked for money by homeless people on many occasions, and on a rare few they got rather upset and forceful. In the last incident (last weekend) the man who wanted money followed me while yelling as I hurriedly walked (side shuffled?) towards the nearest populated area (store front)... Where does asking for money end and being mugged begin? Also i have lived outside DC most of my life and have spent a great deal of time there... I also spend lots of time in Richmond and live in Norfolk... This thread isnt about me defending myself, so if you have any more concerns maybe send them to me via PM? I promise you I have never done, nor will do, anything to give a case for more gun control (other than the fact that I do carry a gun and am willing to use it)...
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book |
September 17, 2008, 02:48 PM | #8 | |||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
September 17, 2008, 03:07 PM | #9 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
|
I read the post. Frankly, it reads like a dime novel, and I'm not too sure how much of it to believe.
In SC, you may only fire if you are in fear of your life or of great bodily injury. You may not shoot to protect valuables or property. You may not draw or show your weapon to warn or intimidate. Brandishing may consist of willfully exposing your weapon and in itself may be considered "use of deadly force". There's a fine line where a simple street robbery or mugging turns into "I might get killed". One SC Sheriff made a statement when he was elected. "This office will consider that, if someone breaks into your house, you may assume he is there to harm you, not to simply rob you." You can imagine the leeway that statement gives the homeowner to make a judgment call to protect his life AND property. In a street mugging, may one reasonably assume they will be gravely injured or killed? That depends on the history of muggings in that area, and the demeanor of the BG(s). Every situation is different. Our CWP instructor told us: "If someone comes at you with their fists, you must assume they can beat up Joe Fraizer. If someone comes at you with a knife, you must assume they are a skilled commando, including throwing it. If someone comes at you with a gun, you must assume they're Wyatt Earp." You can't take a chance on anything else. The penalty for being wrong is too great. My signature/tag line sums it up well. Shoot only if you must, but if you must, shoot well. |
September 17, 2008, 03:36 PM | #10 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Trust me guys, if theres ever a person who wants to avoid a fight, its me
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book |
|||
September 17, 2008, 11:34 PM | #11 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 13,806
|
Quote:
Quote:
Look, bottom line...if you feel threatened with your life or "great bodily harm" and can back that up in court, by all means defend yourself. That's it. Oh, and don't shoot an innocent bystander. You can open carry in the meantime, you know. |
||
September 18, 2008, 09:48 AM | #12 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
September 18, 2008, 10:35 AM | #13 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book |
||
September 18, 2008, 07:04 PM | #14 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
September 18, 2008, 07:12 PM | #15 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 6, 2008
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 2,933
|
Quote:
In some states, simply showing your weapon is considered "brandishing" and can get you in serious trouble. After all, it's supposed to be concealed. Also, in some states, simply putting your hand on your weapon may be considered "use of deadly force". Only place your hand on your weapon to draw it and only draw it to shoot it and only shoot it to save your life. |
|
September 18, 2008, 08:18 PM | #16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 958
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, my early comment about "what my right hand was reaching for" was phrased very poorly and for that I apologize. I meant it merely as when their eyes were drawn to it...
__________________
And it's Killer Angel... as in the book |
||
September 18, 2008, 09:02 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: WA state
Posts: 361
|
I am a bit of a skeptic and think this reads like
"a dime store novel" too. But there are many points I want to briefly touch on.
I am not in Virginia, but I have been approached by aggressive panhandlers, I use my voice to maintain distance etc. and whenever I have a chance I refuse them, out of concience. If they ask nicely, I give richly. It is up to you. But asking for spare change is very different from armed robbery. I could not encourage these punks by giving in. That's just my personality. As a citizen, I would keep my weapons concealed. I think in most places wearing openly is a bad idea, because it makes you a target and takes away your element of suprise, and also opens you up to a gun grab from the start. I would have given the phone by tossing it toward them, drawing and opening fire. If somebody is brandishing a weapon during a robbery, they are using or threatening to use deadly force in the commission of a felony. Deadly force is your option. "It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" Also, anyone who carries a gun without having trained seriously in defensive tactics/martial arts is opeing themselves up to a lot of trouble. Take the time to learn how do defend yourself with your body, improvised weapons, edged weapons, inpact weapons etc. Also, learn CQB. Out of time. Anyway, hope this helps and remember hat there is a lot more to gun ownership than buying a gun and holster. Funon1
__________________
No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know peace. |
September 18, 2008, 10:54 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
|
I have been relieved of my cell phone, wallet with money @ gun point in January this year. I didnt own any weapon @ that time. It happened in night when my car heated up & I stopped just 50 ft. away from Rangers Sub Head Quarter. I was so occupied in watering the radiator that I didnt see the two guys coming on bike & draw on me so I had to comply. I guess even if I had my CCW @ that time, I might have lost it to them too or worst they could have been panicked by just the feel of the CCW (when they tapped me to search) that they might have shot me. Yes, most street criminals here in Karachi are very trigger happy & u would be dead even over a petty cellphone worth no more than $100.
Well, if I had a weapon @that time in my car, I guess I would have shot them when they were fleeing. What any of u would have done? Last edited by pax; September 19, 2008 at 07:09 PM. Reason: ... sorry, wrong one. |
September 18, 2008, 11:48 PM | #19 | |
Member
Join Date: July 21, 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 17
|
Quote:
TFred And PS, I do appreciate all the discussion of my question here! Last edited by TFred; September 18, 2008 at 11:49 PM. Reason: PS |
|
September 19, 2008, 12:37 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Location: Karachi, Pakistan
Posts: 117
|
well, in ur case, they were fleeing too but changed their mind. U can shoot to protect ur property & life here acc. to law, although 90% of the police seems to be really unfriendly.
By shooting, I meant if I had a backup gun in the car & they were fleeing with my carry gun, I would have done that to stop them & using the weapon registered against my name in their criminal activities. Regarding ur question here, sorry to poke my nose in it, but since I m not familiar with UTAHs laws, I cant say much, thats y I mentioned above that law here allows u to shoot to protect property & life. Last edited by pax; September 19, 2008 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Please read Rule #4 at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_catecory#faq_forum_rules ~ pax |
September 19, 2008, 12:12 PM | #21 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
|
|
September 20, 2008, 07:51 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Two on bikes?
Driving after them to try for better ID to inform the Police.
Might have got really nervous, not driving as well as I do normally! POW! Bikers awaiting police vehicles. |
September 21, 2008, 08:01 AM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
|
To go back to the OP...
a ten second exchange which was clearly a robbery scenario, gun being passed from one to the other, and he just stands there? Fight/flight/freeze. The blogger apparently wasn't going to fight. Freeze is most effective when you haven't been spotted yet. He chose wrong. My guess is he thinks every problem can be solved by talking, and this was his introduction to the real world.
__________________
TB., NC |
September 21, 2008, 08:18 AM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
|
"Only place your hand on your weapon to draw it and only draw it to shoot it and only shoot it to save your life."
KELTYKE ok newbie here, and i dont plan on drawing my weapon any time soon and never have, nor brandished one. i try to prepare for the day it will need to be drawn and i hope i never have to. 10 years so far. but do you see no event where drawing a weapon might stop the assault but not require the actual firing of the weapon? or would you wait until a shot is the only resort before bringing the weapon into the event? meaning primarily...is there no legal issue with allowing a situation to escalate beyond the point of no return? for instance a guy 15 feet away winds up a baseball bat and starts walking towards you, brandishing it with an obvious intent. excuse my stupidity, i understand that hypothetical situations are discouraged here. only trying to learn a proper mental approach. sorry for the thread jacking...i dont want to start a hypo thread. KELTYKE....anyone....? |
September 21, 2008, 09:34 AM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
|
Quote:
It's difficult to give hard and fast rules to cover every situation.
__________________
TB., NC |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|