-1 problem buyer Mr. Jim Alves of Westfall, Oregon

[theinvisibleheart]

Mr. Jim Alves of Westfall, Oregon put out a WTB(Want To Buy) ad on Sturmgewehr for Surefire forend for Mossberg 500.

I told him that I had XLNT condition one on my Mossberg 500.

He told me that he wanted to buy it via PayPal so I sold him a 95%-99% (XLNT) condition Surefire/Laser Product unit H22 which I originally got from a Surefire dealer in a Surefire box.

When he got it, he claimed that the forend was:

1. not for Mossberg
2. then claimed it did not fit Mossberg 500/590A1
3. then claimed it was not SureFire product because it said "H22" and "Laser Product" (old name for SureFire) on the unit
4. then claimed that it was ONLY for short barreled NFA Mossberg shotgun

I told him that it fitted my 18inch Mossberg 500 perfectly and offered the guy to:

1. contact Surefire and find out why it did not fit his Mossberg.
2. offered to refund him after he returned the Surefire unit, except
for PayPal fees(he paid via PayPal) and shipping.
3. offered the refund in USPS MO with tracking on receipt of the returned item.

I also explained to the guy with the following graphic that Mossberg 500/590 slide/tube/forend came in 2 different dimension(6 1/2" slide and 7 5/8" slide) but he insisted that it was not for Mossberg, that he own many, many Mossberg 500/590/etc. and he had being working with guns for 30 years or longer.



Then he claimed that the forend was for 14inch NFA/SBS Mossberg.

Then he claimed that I engaged in fraud because the forend unit stated "H22/Laser Product" (Mossberg 500 model, old name for SureFire) and that he'll file PayPal protection/claim for fraud unless I did the following:

1. refund the entire PayPal payment, including S&H and PayPal fees
2. allow him to keep the SureFire unit until I COMPLETELY REFUNDED HIM the shipping fee and PayPal fees.


What do you think?

BTW, I've already contacted PayPal. PayPal service rep stated that I'm under no obligation to refund PayPal fees or S&H cost.

They also said that I'm under no obligation to issue a refund unless the item in question was returned and in possession of the seller. They also said that it was not reasonable to demand refund w/o returning the item in question.

My policy of returning the item w/o question is on par with Costco/MidwayUSA.

There are 2 kinds of folks who commit scam. Folks who do it regularly and folks who do it when they think the other party is an "easy mark."

FWIW, high degree of transparency is the way to police these matter.

As for H22/Laser Product marking, anybody can easily call Surefire tech support and confirm that it is a genuine Surefire forend for Mossberg 500.

I'm also going to email all the links to Mr. Jim Alves. I believe in high degree of transparency.

Pictures at the end: I've listed a small subset of pictures he sent of himself in a separate email when he bragged about his collection/shooting, hunting prowess so that you can all know what he look like and admire it. I've decided not to post pictures of his collection.

FWIW, Mr. Jim Alves also told me that it was OK to publicize the matter, even in Wall Street Journal.


--John

Originally Posted by Jim Alves

Jim Alves <[email protected]> Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:40 AM
Reply-To: Jim Alves <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SF forearm Mossberg


Hello,

I am not "making up" reasons..

I am only answering your questions..

As to the length of forearm, I answered that, as the short forearm is for the 14" barrel weapon. That would be an NFA weapon, my shotgun is not an NFA short barreled weapon.

This unit does NOT fit my Mossberg shotgun like all my other "Surefire" marked products.

I have been working on firearms for over 30 years, I know what fits, and what does not..

I thank you for the refund.
Can you not pay via PayPal just as I paid you?

I will mail back the forearm as soon as I receive the refund, just as you did not ship the unit untl you received payment.

I will be out almost $30 in shipping...

Originally Posted by Jim Alves

Jim Alves <[email protected]> Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Reply-To: Jim Alves <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SF forearm Mossberg

I never said the H22 was for the 14" NFA weapon... I said that according to Surefire's web site, that the short forearm is for the 14" NFA weapon... Once again, I never said the H22 marking was for any purpose, I only stated the only marking on the unit was "H22",,, perhaps you need to re-read the e-mails...

Now you are putting words in my mouth...

You leave me no choice but to turn this matter over to PayPal's buyer protection for refund.

[JMA1963]

Hello,

Thank-you for sending me this list, so as I can reply to these in a truthful manner.

I just got off the phone with Surefire tech support.

Greg, at Surefire (1-800-828-8809) told me that the item you sold to me as a Surefire forearm for a Mossberg 500 shotgun, marked "H22", is in fact for a Maverick shotgun.

The proper fitting model Laser Products forearm for a Mossberg shotgun is the # 623.

Greg, at Surefire tech support, told me, that the item you sold to me, the "H22" will NOT fit Mossberg 500 model of shotguns. It would be a safety hazzard to use a non-fitting part on a firearm.

Yes, Maverick shotguns were built by Mossberg, however, they are a completely different design.

It would be like trying to fit a front fender of a Chevy Nova to a 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy pick-up truck.

It just doesn't work.

I have been very up front in telling you the item you sold me "does NOT fit".

I asked for a refund, and you made a HUGE deal out of nothing.

Bottom line, YOU sold me an item that is NOT as you described.

You put "words in my mouth" that I did not say.

All I am asking for is a refund, and I will return the item.

I will be posting this letter on all the websites in reply to your long, drawn out ordeal of "making a mountain out of a molehill"

Maybe from now on, you will do better research on the items you sell, as to prevent this type of misunderstanding in the future.

I would hope, that for the sake of your own respect, and the respect of others, you will now realize your mistake, and remove all these false, inflamatory remarks, as they only prove that you sold an item that is not as you represented.

Thank-you,

Jim Alves

[theinvisibleheart]

1. I called Surefire to confirm that the model I sent to you ("H22") was for Mossberg 500.

2. if you do a Google search on the web using Surefire/Mossberg/forend/"H22", you don't get Surefire forend for Maverick, you get Surefire forend for Mossberg 500/590.

Either you are lying or the Surefire personnel you talked is not familiar with the older model (H22 is the older model).

In fact, I don't think Surefire made a different model for Maverick shotgun.

3. demanding complete refund of S&H and PayPal fees, while at the same time, refusing to return the item until complete refund is made, is not normal practice for anybody, be it Costco or MidwayUSA.

4. when did I make a big deal out of giving refund? I flatly stated that you are welcome to return the item for refund but I will not refund the original S&H or PayPal fees.

This is normal practice.

Originally Posted by Jim Alves

Hello,

Thank-you for sending me this list, so as I can reply to these in a truthful manner.

I just got off the phone with Surefire tech support.

Greg, at Surefire (1-800-828-8809) told me that the item you sold to me as a Surefire forearm for a Mossberg 500 shotgun, marked "H22", is in fact for a Maverick shotgun.

The proper fitting model Laser Products forearm for a Mossberg shotgun is the # 623.

Greg, at Surefire tech support, told me, that the item you sold to me, the "H22" will NOT fit Mossberg 500 model of shotguns. It would be a safety hazzard to use a non-fitting part on a firearm.

Yes, Maverick shotguns were built by Mossberg, however, they are a completely different design.

It would be like trying to fit a front fender of a Chevy Nova to a 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy pick-up truck.

It just doesn't work.

I have been very up front in telling you the item you sold me "does NOT fit".

I asked for a refund, and you made a HUGE deal out of nothing.

Bottom line, YOU sold me an item that is NOT as you described.

You put "words in my mouth" that I did not say.

All I am asking for is a refund, and I will return the item.

I will be posting this letter on all the websites in reply to your long, drawn out ordeal of "making a mountain out of a molehill"

Maybe from now on, you will do better research on the items you sell, as to prevent this type of misunderstanding in the future.

I would hope, that for the sake of your own respect, and the respect of others, you will now realize your mistake, and remove all these false, inflamatory remarks, as they only prove that you sold an item that is not as you represented.

Thank-you,

Jim Alves

[theinvisibleheart]

Originally Posted by Jim Alves

I just got off the phone with Surefire tech support.

Greg, at Surefire (1-800-828-8809) told me that the item you sold to me as a Surefire forearm for a Mossberg 500 shotgun, marked "H22", is in fact for a Maverick shotgun.

The proper fitting model Laser Products forearm for a Mossberg shotgun is the # 623.

Greg, at Surefire tech support, told me, that the item you sold to me, the "H22" will NOT fit Mossberg 500 model of shotguns. It would be a safety hazzard to use a non-fitting part on a firearm.

Yes, Maverick shotguns were built by Mossberg, however, they are a completely different design.

Sorry, here is an email(verbatim with permission from Greg/Surefire) I just got from Greg

Originally Posted by Greg Lin/Surefire support rep

Dear Customer,

You have the predecessor to our SureFire 622 forend assembly, designed for the Mossberg 500 shotguns. The model number for your product is "H22"

This forend is not compatible with the Mossberg Maverick shotguns.

Thank You

Greg Lin
Technical Support Representative
SUREFIRE, LLC
17680 Newhope St. Suite B I Fountain Valley, CA 92708 I U.S.A.
T 714-545-9444 ex. 5168 F 714-545-9537

And here is a printout of original email I got from you in which you confirmed that it is a "H22" model:

Originally Posted by Jim Alves/JAM1963

Jim Alves <[email protected]> Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 2:02 AM
Reply-To: Jim Alves <[email protected]>
Cc: Jim Alves <[email protected]>
Hello,
I can not find a serial number on the unit, only an "H22" stamped on the bottom side.
...
For this thing to say "Laser Products Corp" on it...

I called Greg on the phone to confirm the email. Here is what he confirmed via voice today(04/05/2012, 9:30 PST):

1. "H22" will work on Mossberg 500 with 18inch barrel

2. Forend tube on Mossberg 500, 590, and 590A1 came in two different dimension("short" and "long"), and depending on forend tube length, specific Surefire unit may or may not work

3. Surefire forend b/w Mossberg 500/590/590A1 and Maverick series of shotgun are not compatible

4. "H22" will work on Mossberg 500/590/590A1, depending on forend tube dimension.

In the email correspondence, I specifically asked SEVERAL TIMES the dimension of forend tube of your Mossberg 590A1.

You refused to divulge it, instead, claiming that the Surefire forend "H22" was:
- not for Mossberg but for other make of shotgun
- not for Mossberg 500/590
- not made by Surefire
- then switched around and stated it was for NFA 14inch Mossberg shotgun
- then switched around and stated that it was Maverick shotgun(2 Surefire forends are not compatible)

Then you claimed that I didn't have to know anything about the forend dimension of your Mossberg 590A1 because to quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Alves

I have been working on firearms for over 30 years, I know what fits, and what does not.

So, if you didn't LIE, how come Greg Lin of Surefire technical support, who can be reached at 714-545-9444 ex. 5168, stated both in email and via voice/telephone that the unit you have, "H22", is for Mossberg 500, not Maverick as you claimed?

[theinvisibleheart]

believe it or not, I got an email from Rufus E. Murray/[email protected] who claimed that he has done business with me in the past and knows both Mr. Jim Alves and I are honorable men.

Then he proceeded to state that I should REFUND RETURN SHIPPING as well as original shipping and EVERYTHING ELSE.

And in return for that, he'll vouch for me.

The only problem with the offer made by Mr. Murray is that when I checked my records, I have never bought from him or sold any item to him.

The only correspondence I've ever had with Mr. Murray was when he sent a low ball offer on a sold item and then, never responded to en email ever since until I got this email out of the blue.

I wander what is the value of "personal voucher" from a man who claimed to have done business with me when he hasn't?


Mr. Murray also stated that if I don't agree to his offer, Buddy Hinton who owns Sturmgewehr.com will probably delete the thread.

Note: turns out that Buddy Hinton sides with Mr. Jim Alves/Rufus E. Murray since he deleted the duplicate of this thread which was posted on Sturmgewehr.com's General Board.

I wander if that means Mr. Buddy Hinton is a MAN OF REAL CHARACTER, just like Mr. Rufus E. Murray, and Mr. Jim Alves?


Then Mr. Rufus E. Murray told me that negative reputation have a way of spreading on the internet.

I guess Buddy Hinton/Sturmgewehr's way of doing this is to delete thread voicing negative feedback if it doesn't please the owner/moderator/Mr. Rufus Murray/Mr. Jim Alves.

What a show of character!

[theinvisibleheart]

this post about obnoxious behavior by Sturmgewehr's buyers was PUBLICLY posted by Robert E. Murray here:

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/ge...cgi?read=69513

I find it IRONIC that the guy made this public post, complaining about behavior of buyers, after emailing me PRIVATELY about the good luck he had in selling items to folks on Sturmgewehr....and why I SHOULD TRUST Mr. Alves and REFUND the return shipping as well.

I wander what prompted the change in opinion regarding the behavior of buyers on Sturmgewehr b/w the short time he emailed me and today's post?

FWIW, this guy asked me to REFUND THE RETURN SHIPPING to Mr. Jim Alves and told me that unless the matter got settled soon, Buddy Hinton will delete the thread(which he did).

I take my hats off to both Mr. Robert E. Murray and Mr. Buddy Hinton for their TRUE SHOW OF CHARACTER.

Originally Posted by Robert E. Murray

What really gets me is those guys that say...
By:Murray <[email protected]> (76.3.201.240)
Date: 4/7/12 13:12
In Response To: When do you stop responding to the emails? (david K. in VA)

"Mark it sold...I'll take it". A Pic of the gun was posted, Detailed description, and the Post read, you get what you see in pic. You then send total price, including shipping, asking that funds be forwarded to you. Thats when the emails start...after the buyer has said.... "I'll take it". One would think that the deal has been sealed, with the "I'll take it". Mind you ...no questions prior to the "I'll take it".....
How many rounds down pipe
Hows the bore
Hows the internals
Did you buy it new
How long have you owned it
Do you have the Original Box
Do you happen to have 2 extra mags you can throw in
Does it come with a cleaning kit.
I didn't see a Sling, will you include one
Will it be shipped in a Hard Case
What spare parts come with it
Do you have a wood stock set that you'll include
What brand ammo have you shot in it
Are there any scratchs on the gun
Is there any rust or pitting on the gun
Hows the finish
Do you have more pics
Send me a pic of the Bore
Are you including a scope with it
I didn't see any Mag Pouches, are they included
How about the Carry Handle
Hows the Headspace
Does it shoot straight
Is it a low serial number gun
Wheres the Bipod, its included...right
Do you have Iron sights for it
Port Buffer is included..right
Do you have the retractable stock for it
Do you have the Manual for it
ect.......
Oft times to avoid answering endless emails, i'll just kindly respond after the 2nd or third email...and ask, Do you want the gun or not, i have others waiting for it. Believe me, i know what you go through.


Murray

[theinvisibleheart]

Originally Posted by Jim Alves/JAM1963

I just got off the phone with Surefire tech support.

Greg, at Surefire (1-800-828-8809) told me that the item you sold to me as a Surefire forearm for a Mossberg 500 shotgun, marked "H22", is in fact for a Maverick shotgun.

Just got this email reply from Surefire. Turns out that they NEVER made any forend for Maverick shotgun.

Originally Posted by Andrew Wright/Surefire

Helpyou [email protected]
Date Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 7:43 PM
Subject RE: Surefire forend for Maverick?
7:43 PM (19 hours ago)

Dear Customer,

Unfortunately we do not have a forend for that particular shotgun. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Thank You

Andrew Wright
Technical Support Representative
SUREFIRE, LLC
17680 Newhope St. Suite B I Fountain Valley, CA 92708 I U.S.A.
T 714-545-9444 ex. 2287 F 714-545-9537

So the QUESTION I HAVE is, if both Greg Lin and Andrew Wright stated that they (SUREFIRE) never made forend for Maverick shotgun, how is it possible that you stated in your email that Surefire told you that they did?

Is there more than ONE SUREFIRE LLC?

Or were you LYING?