December 31, 2011, 05:56 PM | #26 |
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Just buy HXP ammo from CMP and be done with it. It is cheaper than reloading and you should not use commercial ammo in your M1, it is loaded hotter than standard M2 issue.
Nothing to be afraid of. I just had mine out today and put seven rounds in a 1.5" group, from the bench, of course. It's a fantastic rifle. Enjoy. |
January 2, 2012, 07:54 PM | #27 | |||
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Quote:
Not true. Assuming a mechanically correct rifle, that is no busted parts, then the primary cause of slamfires, in battery or out of battery, is primer sensitivity and firing pin inertia. This mechanism, and a number of other mechanisms, have free floating firing pins. That firing pin is tapping that primer all the way down. If the primer is particularly sensitive and the firing pin has sufficient kinetic energy to ignite the primer, you will have a slamfire. Whether it is in battery or out of battery depends whether the locking lugs are engaged. It is a prudent safety measure to use the least sensitive primer on the market. Quote:
That is why I consider it a prudent safety measure to use small base dies when sizing cases in these mechanisms and why I set up my dies with Wilson type gages and size to gage minimum. I want absolutely no delay to bolt closure. . Read these accounts of shooter’s slamfires with factory ammunition, CCI #34 (the least sensitive primer on the market), federal primers (the most sensitive primer on the market) and decide if slamfires are a myth. Due to a character length limit, I cannot post all my Garand slamfire accounts. There are more. Quote:
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January 2, 2012, 10:10 PM | #28 |
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Geez, Slamfire....just posting the links would've worked fine, you didn't have to copy and paste it all!
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January 2, 2012, 10:14 PM | #29 |
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I almost exclusively breech load a single round into my Garands and never had a slam fire. That's with both M2 ball and off the shelf ammo.
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January 3, 2012, 07:50 AM | #30 |
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Just because you havent had a slamfire, doesnt mean one isnt in your future. I think how you single load can make a big difference.
If youre placing the round firmly into the chamber and riding the bolt down onto it, then locking the bolt with the heel of your hand, the chances of it happening are about nil. Just pop a round loosely into the chamber and let the bolt fly, and I think youre increasing your odds a good bit. The M1 was designed to feed from a clip and not be singly loaded. A SLED allows you to do so without fiddling with a clip. They do entail some fiddling themselves, but thats mostly with installation/removal. Slamfires are not something that happens very often, but you should be aware of the problem and understand why it occurs. If you reload, you need to exercise more care and pay close attention to your methods and check a few things other guns dont normally need as close attention to. |
January 3, 2012, 09:12 AM | #31 |
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If you are careful about single loading you are less likely to have a slam fire single loading as you are firing semi auto.
When I single load a round and pull the round back out of the chamber there is not even a trace of a firing pin mark on the round. There is always a dimple on the primer on a round fed into the chamber loading from the clip. |
January 3, 2012, 10:21 AM | #32 |
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"If you are careful" is the key phrase here. Not everyone is, or thinks what they are doing is wrong.
A lot of us were taught to just pop the round into the chamber and let the bolt fly. Ive seen it done this way probably a million plus times over the years, and with no problem what so ever. The dimple in the primer is just the nature of the beast with these, and other type rifles. AR's do it too. 99.99% of the time, with issue ammo, its nothing to worry about. With handloads, using improper techniques and/or components, and it can be an issue. Of course, this is all assuming there are no mechanical problems with the gun itself either. The rifle was designed to feed from the clip (or mag) and doing so, eliminates most of the possibility of the round having problems you can encounter single loading if youre "not careful" . My gun did "double" a couple of times during the rapid fire stage. It was a new (to me) gun and I thought it was me and didnt give it much thought, as it can happen with these rifles. After the brass was recovered later, and there were a couple of cases with the necks blown out, it became obvious something else was going on. I was lucky enough it happened in the slow fire stage, if it had been during the rapid fire stage, I probably wouldnt be typing this now. |
January 3, 2012, 11:19 AM | #33 | |
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Jouster took all of its old pages down, for example, so by retaining pictures and text, I kept a record of issues important to me. Besides, you can post a link and people don't follow. I have done that many a time in a thread and found subsequent posters never looked.
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January 3, 2012, 11:35 AM | #34 | |
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I shot in the afternoon and on the "load command", for standing, everyone heard a rifle slamfire. Blam! My hut mate was near the rifle in question and said it slamfired. A bud who shot in the morning said they had so many slamfires that "they like never got the match going". These were all in battery slamfires or we would have heard of injuries and the ambulance would have been on the range. Federal was used in 2002 the ammunition was not as hot and they must have used less sensitive primers. I am sure slamfires occur during the standing stage after first round down range, but once the shooting starts, you cannot distinguish slamfires from the regular rounds. I have had a slamfire in the AR during the standing stage and the shooter on relay two had his AR slamfire when I was scoring him. I was using WSR and he was using Federal Match. We both dropped a round in the chamber and hit the bolt release. Blam! My bud told me in Dec he had another slamfire with Federals in his AR and now he lowers the bolt with the charging handle and hits the forward assist. He also no longer uses Federals in his AR, they are just too sensitive. I lower the AR bolt half way and let go of the charging handle. In fact that is what I do with the Garand. I believe that lowering the forward speed of the bolt really reduces the chance of a primer initated slamfire, plus I am using CCI #34's.
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January 3, 2012, 04:51 PM | #35 | |
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These rifles were type classified in 1936 with ammunition that is positively mild, compared today’s commercial ammunition. You over accelerate the mechanism, and that early CMP Garand Match Federal ammunition did that too, you will have malfunctions. The Korea War era retired Marine (remember once a Marine always a Marine!) that I was scoring, his like new Garand malfunctioned with the CMP ammunition. It jumped the clip during prone rapid. The old Devil Dog was so disgusted he just picked up his gear and left. So you have to be cognizant of port pressures and bullet weight. The right powders with the right burn rate (think IMR 4895) and bullets less than or equal to 175 grains, velocities 2700 fps or less with 150’s, and for the 175’s, see that box?, that is as fast as you should go with 175’s. Lets talk about damage to the rifle. The bolt rebounds off the receiver heel. These rifles have been in service since 1936, some of them went through WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and others have been shot so much at Boot Camp that they have lots and lots of rounds through them. Old actions can develop cracks on the sidewalls through metal fatigue. You put enough rounds through one of these things and it will crack. That may be 30,000 rounds of service rifle ammunition, I have an idea of the service life of M14’s, from a Government report, I assume the M1 is similar. Now, lets say you put some heavy bullets, like 190’s and slow powder, like IMR 4350, that bolt is going to rebound off that receiver heel real hard. The fatigue life will be less. If you have one of those absolutely new SA’s and HRA’s that the CMP is selling for a grand, it may take a long time to crack a receiver heel. But what about one that has already been rebarreled a number of times? Does it make sense to shoot hot loads in them? I have a couple of pictures of cracked receivers. Cracked receivers are not exactly falling from the sky like snow flakes, but guess what, they happen. The first set were from a Gunbroker Auction. The seller never said what it took to crack the receiver. This was posted on the old jouster site, the text and pictures are gone, except for the copies I kept. This guy had his receiver crack withHXP69, CMP Greek ammunition. Like the guys who hot load M1891’s, M1893’s, and shoot Spanish M1916 conversions in 308 Win, hey its your rifle, do what you want. Its a free world, believe what you want.
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January 4, 2012, 04:29 PM | #36 |
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Not to add to the scare, but this just showed up on THR...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn0KB...layer_embedded She mentions using "newer" ammo, whatever that means. There was a malfunction of some sort just prior to the failure. |
January 4, 2012, 05:39 PM | #37 |
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Odd that it took so many posts until Slamfire got it right:
It's not how ""hot"" the round is, it's the port pressure. If the pressure at the gas port is too low, the rifle will not function. Too high, and you can bend the op rod. That is why reloaders use only a few powders for the M1, 4895 being the original. And slamfires have to do with: Primer cup thickness Primer seating depth (a high primer is a real problem) Firing pin legnth, and method of loading - ever notice how much slower the bolt moves when loading from a clip than when you just chamber a round and let it fly forward. I wonder how often the recoil springs where changed in the M1's that cracked? I recall seeing one that was 3" shorter than a new spring. I'll bet that was tough on the receiver. I have been shooting M1's for 50 years, with caution. In fact, I have been shooting the same M1 for 50 years!
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January 4, 2012, 05:55 PM | #38 |
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So bottomline...if I get an M1A SOCOM 16 will I have problems shooting commercial ammo/modern hunting rounds? I don't plan on reloading and want to be able to shoot both surplus and commercial hunting ammo.
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January 5, 2012, 12:20 AM | #39 |
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See post #11 of this thread
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473555 The M1A has a shorter op-rod than the M1, and the gas system is a little different. However, the bolt is identical to the M1 Garand. So, perhaps the bent op rod is less likely, but slamfires are still a concern. IMO, if you shoot factory .308 in a M1A, you won't have case resizing or high primer issues. That leaves single round loading, which should be done from a magazine or use some other practice to slow bolt velocity. Also, if you shoot 190gr bullets, you might want to check on an adjustable gas plug for the M1A http://www.midwayusa.com/product/699...eel-parkerized You don't read about them as often as the M1 Garand type, but they exist, and for the same purpose. Bottom line (borrowing your phrase) - Gas guns aren't as forgiving of load variation as other actions.
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January 5, 2012, 11:03 AM | #40 |
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Slamfires should be a concern for any weapon with a free floating firing pin.
That includes AR15, AR10's, FAL's, M1 Carbines, SKS, AK47's, MAS 49 series, and the Tavor. There are probably a lot more I just cannot think of them. Any weapon with a free floating firing pin can slamfire given a sensitive primer. It is rare, but slamfires happen. They happen more often with commercial primers because shooters are unhappy when their ill maintained and ancient blunderbusses refuse to fire. You can find all the hate threads towards Russian primers, because Russian primers tend to be insensitive. Fine for shooting the Makarov pistol (another firearm with a free floating firing pin) but horrible with old handguns and handguns with weak striker mechanisms. So American manufacturer's have responded by giving us the most sensitive primers on earth. And occasionally, one goes off. Tavor 21 Slamfire video on youtube. Notice how many rounds the guy fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive. This weapon slamfired in battery. The risk with Garands and M1a’s, is that they have often slamfired out of battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k
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January 5, 2012, 11:33 AM | #41 |
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So I have a Mosin-Nagant (floating pin)? which I have been shooting last year (love it) and about to order an M1 Garand.
With proper ammo, occasional recreational use, do I have to be concerned with this slamfire issue. You all have me scared now to buy one. The rifle seems like a jem of a gun with much history attached and I want one before they are all gone. Last edited by bitttorrrent; January 6, 2012 at 12:02 AM. |
January 5, 2012, 02:42 PM | #42 | |
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Quote:
Quote:
Does anyone know exactly what happened? In the comments she seems to imply that maybe the bolt didn't go back to battery.
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January 5, 2012, 03:15 PM | #43 |
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No, apparently, their still trying to hash it out.
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January 5, 2012, 05:00 PM | #44 |
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Ammo for Garand Milsurp.
I am ignorant of the reloading criteria for the this question. I bought a refurbished Garand and was in the same quandary.........as far as what ammo to use. I came upon another thread (milsurps.com) which explained the issue and suggested which to use and I quote.
"Gus Fisher, who is a retired USMC armourer and currently services rifles for the National Match competitions at Camp Perry, Ohio. Gus's advice was to use the American Eagle FMJ 150-gr. load, which he has used frequently with no problems. His other preferred load was the Federal Gold Match 168-gr. FMJBT load, which was designed for the Garand but is very expensive. He had no opinion on the Remington-UMC or Winchester 150-gr. loads. The crux of the matter here is the burning speed of the powder. The American Eagle, as well as the Winchester and UMC loads, equals the ballistics for those companies' 150-gr. hunting loads, which seem to use powder of the wrong burning speed for the Garand. However, Gus Fisher acknowledged that the American Eagle was a bit hotter than the military loads, but still caused no problems such as bent op rods, etc. He had no opinion on the Remington-UMC or Winchester 150-gr. loads. This quote was from a 2007 thread so it may be dated and there may be other ammo manufactures that have stepped forward to service this niche. I have used the American Eagle FMJ 150gr and have had zero problems......though I have only put about 100 rounds down range. |
January 5, 2012, 08:15 PM | #45 | |
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This is different from the firing pin found in the M1 Garand, M1A (M14 variant) and AR15. These firing pins are not spring-loaded and are, therefore, termed "floating".
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January 6, 2012, 12:44 PM | #46 |
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High primers can be set off in any rifle - just make sure all the primers are set flush or slightly below. "Can" meaning that, if you work the bolt really hard and fast, in theory you could set one off. With a M/N, the ergonomics are such that it is extreamly unlikely.
Don't overthink this stuff - if the primers are at/below flush, load 'em up and have fun!
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