Philosophy on tactics of the economical battle rifle use - Page 3

GeauxTide · October 22, 2009, 04:49 PM

The man behind the rifle is the weapon, the rifle is merely the instrument.

sneaky pete · October 22, 2009, 06:45 PM

old Sneaky Pete here: My memory is kind of foggy but when I was carrying an M1 Garand in the 50's wasn't our yearly qualification comprised of 1 string of 10 rounds @ 500 on a "Baker" target with a 24" 10 ring(4.8MOA) prone with IRON sights,along with fire @ 200&300. and wasn't it easy to shoot possibles @ 500??? Now I shoot little tiny 10 shot groups (smallest 0.378"CTC) with my $1200 Super Match 24* SS/Free-float heat sink,adj. gas block upper and My Hand made custom lower W/ a JARD 1>1-1/2# adjustable trigger, collapsable stock, and hand-loaded super precision ammo, and my $400+ Weaver T-36 target scope. At my Local range which is only 150 miles away and only has a 100 yard range. The closest Long range is 400 miles away and the closest place to stay there is 50 miles away.. Besides after spending 30 years defending the American way of life I'm too old and grouchy for that Kid **** any more---I Just want to relax and make eye-ball sized holes in paper with my shooting buddies--That's what retirement is for. THANX--SNEAKY

Come and take it. · October 22, 2009, 07:23 PM

I have no problem believing a mosin nagant can hit a gong at 1000 yards. Maybe not with the first shot or even every shot but its possible to hit it with most shots. Even offhand in the hands of a good shot. The guns bedding is more forgiving when fired offhand than if the gun were rested on sandbags.

You would need a good spotter though.

I hit a 2 two liter bottles with 3 shots from a century arms sporter L1A1 at 300 yards open sights. A few minutes later I hit a 2 liter bottle at 450 yards on the first shot. This from a gun that shot 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

Someone of course will say that its impossible. No not at all.

I will admit some luck was definitely involved but I had a spotter that witnessed it himself. One bottle was a mountian dew that blended in perfectly with the berm behind it. I could make out the white top through a high powered spotting scope and memorized where the object was in relation to bigger objects nearby such as a large rock and a tree root.

Most people who say its impossible to hit targets at long range with run of the mill guns probably have never really tried it.

bhannah · October 22, 2009, 09:39 PM

Wow come and take it that was some fine shooting.
I think you had a typo in there 4" groups at 100 would be 12" at 300 thats either skill, luck or some bad shooting at 100..

If i had a rifle that shot 4" groups at 100 yards I am not sure I would feel safe shooting it out to 300...

danweasel · October 22, 2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

If i had a rifle that shot 4" groups at 100 yards I am not sure I would feel safe shooting it out to 300..

A few inches off ain't gonna make it come back at ya!

Just joking. Anyways I hit some milk jugs at 200 with my AK one day. I couldn't miss man it was great! That thing probably shoots 4 mOA or so as well.

Come and take it. · October 22, 2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Wow come and take it that was some fine shooting.
I think you had a typo in there 4" groups at 100 would be 12" at 300 thats either skill, luck or some bad shooting at 100..

If i had a rifle that shot 4" groups at 100 yards I am not sure I would feel safe shooting it out to 300...

Its not a typo. you wont hit the target every time but if you do your part and get the target in the area where most of the rounds will fall than you will hit it most of the time.

For hunting this would be unacceptable. For sniping it would be unacceptable as well, but for long range combat it is more than acceptable.

bamaranger · October 23, 2009, 01:42 AM

What a neat range to shoot on! I am curious about your Nagant and suggest more experimentation.

I am only vaguely familiar w/ the Nagants, having shot one, and examined a few others. I have also read a bit on them, and their use in WWII. I have not seen any reference to one "counterbored" at the muzzle. Perhaps someone else can comment on that?

What I suspect (and I sure could be wrong) is that your seeing wear of the rifling, from the rifle being incorrectly cleaned from the muzzle w/ the GI ramrod by some enthusiastic comrade from days of yore. Before we hear about degrading accuracy, let me say that I have an M1 Garand displaying such wear, that will not pass the "bright ring" cartridge test. The LMR barrel on the rifle is of such high quality that the rifle apparently does not know it, and it consistently shoots into sub 2MOA w/ top end reloads, and 3MOA with ball reloads. Just a theory on your Nagant, again I'm speculating.

Although you have voiced your disdain for shooting 100 yd groups, I'd like to suggest you take your Nagant and do so, and advise us back. Many will be interested , I think, and we'll have a yardstick by which to measure rifle and shooter.

savage1r · October 23, 2009, 10:10 AM

Well, I don't know if I'm qualified to comment, but from what I understand, these big-5 rifles are refurbished a bit before being sent over to be sold. So I'm assuming they check the rifling, stock, mechanics for any issues and I'm sure your right, the rifle was probably cleaned improperly and was damaged at the muzzle so they counterbored it to prevent the bullets from going wild, Though that really hasn't damaged the accuracy. I am still getting used to shooting this rifle, this is probably only the 5th time I've actually been out to shoot with it in 2 years and most of the "target" shooting I've been doing with it has been at cans, computer components and other left over refuse at a junk range somewhere else. I've probably put a 250-300 rounds through this rifle so far. At some point I'll take some paper to this range and see what groups I get, but for right now, I'm kind of enjoying the long range stuff :P.
P.S. After about 70 rounds in a row your shoulder starts to REALLY hurt!

wogpotter · October 23, 2009, 12:15 PM

That's one of the reasons the Nagants were sold inexpensively. They kick like a mule!

I have shot a couple of hundred rounds thru a Lee-Enfield & not gotten tenderized, mostly because of stock design.
Take a look at the replacment synthetic stocks available for fairly low prices from folks like ATI. It makes a huge difference.

curmudgeon1 · October 23, 2009, 05:34 PM

SP, "any brown shoe Marines around ?"

Yeah, 6th Marines ..... '51-'54.
10 shots in the black at 500 yds, iron sights ....... no problem.
The 10 shots rapid-fire at 300 yds was more fun though.

October 22, 2009, 06:45 PM	#52
sneaky pete Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2004 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 510	Any "Brown Shoe Marines" from the 50's around?? old Sneaky Pete here: My memory is kind of foggy but when I was carrying an M1 Garand in the 50's wasn't our yearly qualification comprised of 1 string of 10 rounds @ 500 on a "Baker" target with a 24" 10 ring(4.8MOA) prone with IRON sights,along with fire @ 200&300. and wasn't it easy to shoot possibles @ 500??? Now I shoot little tiny 10 shot groups (smallest 0.378"CTC) with my $1200 Super Match 24* SS/Free-float heat sink,adj. gas block upper and My Hand made custom lower W/ a JARD 1>1-1/2# adjustable trigger, collapsable stock, and hand-loaded super precision ammo, and my $400+ Weaver T-36 target scope. At my Local range which is only 150 miles away and only has a 100 yard range. The closest Long range is 400 miles away and the closest place to stay there is 50 miles away.. Besides after spending 30 years defending the American way of life I'm too old and grouchy for that Kid **** any more---I Just want to relax and make eye-ball sized holes in paper with my shooting buddies--That's what retirement is for. THANX--SNEAKY __________________ A Slave is one who is Forced to act for the benefit of another--TAXPAYER--47% of Americans Don't pay taxes. A little bit of Slavery is stll Slavery--- M/sgt GENO

October 23, 2009, 01:42 AM	#57
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	watched your video What a neat range to shoot on! I am curious about your Nagant and suggest more experimentation. I am only vaguely familiar w/ the Nagants, having shot one, and examined a few others. I have also read a bit on them, and their use in WWII. I have not seen any reference to one "counterbored" at the muzzle. Perhaps someone else can comment on that? What I suspect (and I sure could be wrong) is that your seeing wear of the rifling, from the rifle being incorrectly cleaned from the muzzle w/ the GI ramrod by some enthusiastic comrade from days of yore. Before we hear about degrading accuracy, let me say that I have an M1 Garand displaying such wear, that will not pass the "bright ring" cartridge test. The LMR barrel on the rifle is of such high quality that the rifle apparently does not know it, and it consistently shoots into sub 2MOA w/ top end reloads, and 3MOA with ball reloads. Just a theory on your Nagant, again I'm speculating. Although you have voiced your disdain for shooting 100 yd groups, I'd like to suggest you take your Nagant and do so, and advise us back. Many will be interested , I think, and we'll have a yardstick by which to measure rifle and shooter.

October 22, 2009, 04:49 PM	#51
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	The man behind the rifle is the weapon, the rifle is merely the instrument.

October 22, 2009, 07:23 PM	#53
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	I have no problem believing a mosin nagant can hit a gong at 1000 yards. Maybe not with the first shot or even every shot but its possible to hit it with most shots. Even offhand in the hands of a good shot. The guns bedding is more forgiving when fired offhand than if the gun were rested on sandbags. You would need a good spotter though. I hit a 2 two liter bottles with 3 shots from a century arms sporter L1A1 at 300 yards open sights. A few minutes later I hit a 2 liter bottle at 450 yards on the first shot. This from a gun that shot 4 inch groups at 100 yards. Someone of course will say that its impossible. No not at all. I will admit some luck was definitely involved but I had a spotter that witnessed it himself. One bottle was a mountian dew that blended in perfectly with the berm behind it. I could make out the white top through a high powered spotting scope and memorized where the object was in relation to bigger objects nearby such as a large rock and a tree root. Most people who say its impossible to hit targets at long range with run of the mill guns probably have never really tried it.

October 22, 2009, 09:39 PM	#54
bhannah Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2008 Posts: 188	Wow come and take it that was some fine shooting. I think you had a typo in there 4" groups at 100 would be 12" at 300 thats either skill, luck or some bad shooting at 100.. If i had a rifle that shot 4" groups at 100 yards I am not sure I would feel safe shooting it out to 300...

October 23, 2009, 10:10 AM	#58
savage1r Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2009 Posts: 313	Well, I don't know if I'm qualified to comment, but from what I understand, these big-5 rifles are refurbished a bit before being sent over to be sold. So I'm assuming they check the rifling, stock, mechanics for any issues and I'm sure your right, the rifle was probably cleaned improperly and was damaged at the muzzle so they counterbored it to prevent the bullets from going wild, Though that really hasn't damaged the accuracy. I am still getting used to shooting this rifle, this is probably only the 5th time I've actually been out to shoot with it in 2 years and most of the "target" shooting I've been doing with it has been at cans, computer components and other left over refuse at a junk range somewhere else. I've probably put a 250-300 rounds through this rifle so far. At some point I'll take some paper to this range and see what groups I get, but for right now, I'm kind of enjoying the long range stuff :P. P.S. After about 70 rounds in a row your shoulder starts to REALLY hurt!

October 23, 2009, 12:15 PM	#59
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	That's one of the reasons the Nagants were sold inexpensively. They kick like a mule! I have shot a couple of hundred rounds thru a Lee-Enfield & not gotten tenderized, mostly because of stock design. Take a look at the replacment synthetic stocks available for fairly low prices from folks like ATI. It makes a huge difference.

October 23, 2009, 05:34 PM	#60
curmudgeon1 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: n.e. ohio Posts: 544	SP, "any brown shoe Marines around ?" Yeah, 6th Marines ..... '51-'54. 10 shots in the black at 500 yds, iron sights ....... no problem. The 10 shots rapid-fire at 300 yds was more fun though.