Quick Load data vs load manuals

[rmax]

been searching here for a while and dont post much, but have a question to those that use QuickLoad. How you you adjust or setup to get the resluts correct. i mean i have QL but when i compare to a manual like Sierra for say a 150-165 grain SPBT i get a result in QL for a bit more powder and still not a max load vs Sierra.

loading a 308, win brass, 24" barrel. i get great results with Varget, 4895(s), 4064, R-15. but by comparison say the IMR 4895 in Sierra is a lot less powder than folks are using and much less than QL.

am i missing something with QL.

do you set the variation on powder burn rates and lots by 2% or 5%, etc

Ron
(VA area)

[jepp2]

Welcome to TFL forum with your first post.

How you you adjust or setup to get the resluts correct.

Keep in mind:

The load manual lists the results for the load listed:

- in their firearm or universal receiver
- for the given lot of powder, primer, and particular bullet
- at the altitude and atmospheric conditions on the day of the test
- with their method and equipment for measure pressure and velocity

QuickLoad give a projected result based on mathematical calculation based on a set of variables, some of which you can adjust. One of the more sensitive will be the water capacity of the case. This changes the available internal volume of the case (after firing) based on your particular firearm.

I have found QuickLoad to be extremely useful for the information I need to develop loads. I don't expect the output of QuickLoad to match the listed results in a load manual. Just like I don't necessarily expect my handloads to match the velocity of the results listed in the manual.

Rarely can I find my exact bullet listed in the load manual data, but with QuickLoad I can input my actual bullet and determine calculated velocities and pressures. Although it is known that QuickLoad works best in bottleneck cartridges, I find it very useful to determine starting loads in my 9mm loads since I normally load with a longer OAL than that listed in the manual and I know I need to stay above 24K pressure for reliable functioning in my pistols.

[mehavey]

How you you adjust or setup to get the results correct?

First. QuickLoad (QL) comes into its own when you have access to a chronograph. Then you are able to see correlation to the cartridge's actual performance in your weapon.

Second. You best start by measuring the actual water capacity of your cartridge case and setting QuickLoad's case capacity to that value.

Third. QuickLoad can then guide you to load combinations that are likely to be top performers with your bullet, with your barrel length, at your OAL (bullet depth set to 5-20 thou off the lands), and a variety of powders. I generally set a pressure 10% below absolute max (as given in QL), then run Options>SetUp Propellant Table at that value to look for 96-99% burn, 98-105% case fill (105% is absolute full case), and the velocity range that interests me (which may/may not be the highest).

Fourth, the chronograph will tell me truth, and also allow me to adjust the powder's burn rate (Ba) to closely match that truth.

I can then play with reasonable certainty as to where I am on the pressure curve at that point.

Case in point for the 308 and the SMK at moderate pressures and a 20" barrel with (my) Winchester brass:

[rmax]

Jepp2,

thanks for reply. and with the case H20 volume entered, barrel lenght, seating depth, etc. its just confusing at time to see so much difference between QL and manuals. mostly with Sierra as the data seems to give even lighter loads compared to other manual brands. give that i do understand they all use different test components and each bullet is different and reacts differently.

curous what you set the burn rate variation to. mine was set at 5% upon installing software. not sure if it should be that or 2% or 10%.

[rmax]

Mehavey,

thanks. i do have an older Chrony but am about to purchase a newer one as the one i have gives velocoty a good bit higher than published manual data and QL even at mid level charges so i dont trust it. i have been checking water capacity on fired cases (average of four cases) and plug in my finished round spec's. so far i go by manuals and compare to searches her and other forums, start low and work up. when i check in QL it shows one could use a bit more charge before getting the "near max..." note on propellant report.

i ave a lot to learn and understand on the QL and reloading and thought of asking here to gain some insight/knowledge.

Ron
(VA)

[mehavey]

Burn Rate Variation is not what you adjust (if you are going to adjust anything)

The burn rate adjustment is here:

Don't mess with it unless you have a chronograph. (added: that you trust) Than have at it.
Do not adjust it to try and match load manuals.

[mehavey]

Your chronograph combined w/ QuickLoad is the next best thing to a piezo pressure set up.

Velocity doesn't come free.... it always come from pressure.
"Tight" barrels and "fast" barrels are higher pressure barrels
i.e., there ain't no free lunch.***










** Unless you're a Democrat.

[rmax]

mehavey,

thanks for the education on QL/reloading. i dont adjust or change anything other than the H20, bullet, case lenght, and seating depth, barrel length. you mentioned you set the propellant table to give you certain outcomes. i am not clear on how to set that. can you send a pic of that chart and settings to get what you want.

[mehavey]

(apologies for the last "botton". Photoshop can't spell wurth a durn.

Brian P (Peetza) and others here are experts/long-time users and can weigh in.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Weighting Factor is another adjustment that can be made. It's based on the shape of the case and the "over-bore" nature of a cartridge, which is a bit problematic since there is no definition of exactly what "over-bore" means.

However, you will find that QuickLoad's default Weighting Factor settings occasionally makes no sense, such as .243Win being set to .65, which is almost straight-walled cartridge setting. No other similar cartridge is set that high, that I've seen.

You can go to the Data: Add, Change, Load, Save menu, select Case/Caliber Data, select Change Data Records in Active File and then choose the box that says Case Capacity Overflow.

Enter all the specifics of your cases and QL will give you a "reasonable default Weighting Factor".

Personally, I've found changing the weighting factor a reasonable amount to be entirely sufficient to match my real output.

The main caveat being that lowering the Weighting Factor simultaneously raises FPS and LOWERS PSI predictions, so be careful.

I've done a lot of reading on what "over-bore" might mean and I've come to a bit of a formula that I use for a starting point in QL.

First, divide the case capacity by the cross-sectional bore area. In the case of .243Win, it would be something like 54.0/0.0453=1,192

Cartridges with results approximately 1,200 and over could be over-bore.

Whether or not they actually are over-bore is situational, depending on the powder being used. Powders which can be loaded to 100% or greater case capacity make the cartridge not over-bore, while those that produce max PSI at less than 100% capacity are in an "over-bore" situation.

What I do, is take the difference in the settings (over-bore=.33, typical bottleneck=.5), which is .17 and multiply by the approximate max charges case fill, let's say 80gr TTSX in 243 WIn and Rl-17, max charge is approximately 45.5 (according to Barnes), which is 93.3% fill with default capacity. So, .17x.933=.155, add the .155 to .33 and get .488

I start with .49 as the weighting factor.

I'm still in the process of tweaking this idea and it is just an idea, so I wouldn't assume it's correct and it's probably safest to stick with the default number QL gives you if you enter the data as described in the Case/Caliber Data.

Anyway, all that to say that the default Weighting Factor may well not be correct.

[tobnpr]

loading a 308, win brass, 24" barrel. i get great results with Varget, 4895(s), 4064, R-15. but by comparison say the IMR 4895 in Sierra is a lot less powder than folks are using and much less than QL.

When I first started reloading, I bought Sierra's manual as the SMK was mostly our bullet of choice.

I soon found out-that at least for the calibers I load for- their data is so conservative that it's borderline ridiculous.

In my case in point, take the .308 and the 175 SMK, with Varget- probably the most popular long-range target boolit ( and powder) for that caliber.

Sierra starting load: 36.3 grains, (2200), max load 41.7 , 2500

Hodgdon starting load 42.0 grains, (2583), max load 45.0 (C), 2690

Sierra's max load is less than the starting load published by Hodgdon.

Think that confused someone that's never reloaded a cartridge before?

I don't think you can chalk up that amount of inconsistency to a difference in primers, case, or barrel length...

I go by the powder manufacturer's recommendations, and common sense/online research if I can't find info for the exact match.

It would be interesting if someone with QL would punch in Sierra's max load of 41.7 grains to see if they can get pressures anywhere near 62 KSI.

[mehavey]

See Post#9 above for Varget at 51,000psi

(Note also that a QL run for exactly 41.7gr --> ~50,300psi, and the 175SMK's standard match velocity of 2,540fps out of a 24" barrel)

[rmax]

mehavey,

thanks for the pic. i will try that and see how it comes out for my spec's. so the 51,000 you use is a bit less than 10% of the industry 52,000 for 308. is this correct.

Brian,

thanks. i might try your formulas and see how it comes out. just trying to understand QL a bit better as it shows load a little higher than that in Sierra manual. but with that said i dont want to over load and i do look for pressure signs.

tobnpr,

thats what i am talking about as well. for max PSI i see some reference 62,000 and some places reference 52,000 for the 308, 270 and the like. 243 as 60,000. whats the difference.

[mehavey]

Industry standard for the 308Win is 62,000 psi (SAAMI, page 21).
People (and books/manuals, etc) who quote 52,000 are confusing that with earlier "Copper Crusher Units of Pressure" (CUP) tests.

In the above example case I centered on 51,000 psi as a normal military loadout for the M14/M1A's gas-operated action..

[Dave P]

rmax: advice for a new user. Don't screw with the default values in QL. Easy to get off into the weeds.

H2o volume: must be done with a fired case.

I find ql great for developing a new load. Can save a lot of barrel wear.

Very accurate results for 30 cal rifle ammo.

Not quite as accurate for pistol, but still very worthwhile. One key output I look for, is % of powder burnt. If your pistol load only burns 66%, you will get a heck of a flame out the front!

[tobnpr]

See Post#9 above for Varget at 51,000psi

I'm seeing Accurate 4064, not Varget in your example #9?

So, QL is pretty close on MV for that load, but well under maximum pressures- confirming Sierra's very conservative "approach"...

Does Hodgdon's maximum compressed load of 45 grains exceed the 64 KSI pressure?

[mehavey]

Oops, meant Post #3 pasted here again:
Varget is the third one down.



BREAK BREAK....

45.0gr VARGET under a 175grSMK seated at 2.800" OAL in a standard 56gr(H2O)case volume computes to....

62,364psi (SAAMI Max is 62k)
2,715fps

....out of a 24" barrel.

Incidentally, QL tells me it's barely compressed

[Clark]

My jug of Varget is dead nuts on with the the Quickload library.
Velocity predictions are right in the middle of my strings.

I wish that were true of H4350 [my most frequent rifle powder].
Either I have a slow jug of H4350 or the QL library characterization is off by 2%.
I guess it does not matter which, because I make the same adjustment in either case.

[rmax]

Dehavey,

thanks for clearing that point up for me. think i will order the SAMMI files.

Dave P,

yes i am not adjusting the standard settings other than spec's for case and bullet seating for my actual results report. i have played the MAX PSI in the propellant window and put back and then put back to the original number.

So, for now i wil stay with the manuals until i replace my Chrony, actually until i replace that unit its not much use trying to develop loads (manual or QL). Other than just some trigger time.

Ron

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Mehavey

. . . 51,000 psi as a normal military loadout for the M14/M1A's gas-operated action.

Actually that is also CUP and not psi. For some oddball reason, even though the military labs switched to keeping copper crusher results as CUP long ago, the editors of their technical manuals persisted in reporting it as "psi" for a long time. See FALPhil's article on it, here.


Rmax,

A couple of odds and ends:

Varget suffered from complaints in the 90's about the lot-to-lot differences in burn rate it had. Hodgdon has since got that under control. They keep their powder burn rates within ±3%. They now hold all the powders they distribute to ±3%, including IMR and Winchester powders. Western Powders also uses ±3%. I don't know if Alliant uses that same spec or not, but wouldn't be surprised if they did. So you can expect to have to make those sorts of adjustments.

The loads developed by Hodgdon use special set aside powder lots that are their burn rate reference standards that they hold all subsequent lots within 3% of. So their load data is from powder exactly at the middle of the burn rate tolerance. That makes their data pretty representative, given the specifics of their loads.

QuickLOAD's powder model is based on testing an actual lot of Varget without knowing whether it's at the high end or the low end. That's one reason some of the models are off more than others. I have adjusted it before to match specific load data and found myself having to adjust it both fast and slow. I think this is because QuickLOAD has no way to know the length of your chamber's freebore or how close to the lands your bullet ogive is or what primer you are using.

Chris Long has an adjustment procedure you can look at for use with your new chronograph.

As mentioned earlier, the Hodgdon data is developed in a pressure/velocity test barrel. In .308 Winchester, these barrels are SAAMI specified to be 24" +0.005" long and to have a minimum size standard shape chambers that are within half a thousandth of an inch of minimum and to have a bore within half a thousandth of an inch on nominal .308" groove diameter down its whole length except tht the four lands have a 2 thousandths width tolerance. This is all tighter than normal rifle chambers are made in mass produced rifles. It is SAAMI's intent that the test barrel produce the highest pressures to keep the ammunition safe in other guns, and that also tends to produce the highest velocities.

Exceptions: you have a match chamber or a custom chamber design with narrower neck and shorter freebore that has been cut to minimum headspace. You have a narrow bore, such as Palma barrels often do. These can produce higher pressures and velocities than the pressure/velocity test barrels do.

Hodgdon uses Winchester cases in their testing. (To see what case and primer and barrel length they use, press the "print" button on their data site after the data has loaded.) At the end of the 1980's Winchester designed a special .308 Winchester case with extra powder capacity for the 1992 Palma match ammunition. They later adopted that semi-balloon head design for all their .308 Winchester brass, so today any load developed in it may have up to a grain or two more power than most other brass you might buy, especially military brass. I would knock an extra two grains off any Hodgdon .308 Winchester starting load before using it in once-fired military brass.

[myg30]

Great info Unclenick, I wish some of the guys loading would read your post,and the others too, and understand that all these variations can cause
some bad alterations to their weapons, fingers or hands. It scares me to read how many pick a load near max or just copy someone's miracle load and expect the same moa fortune with no time or labor invested.
The varations in powder from lot to lot should be enough to make some rework up their loads for safty sake.
I've not used the QL but since reading here im going to look into it. Im very old school and my hand notes are getting hard to read. Im suprised some times I have a computer !

Mike

[mehavey]

Actually that is also CUP and not psi.

Uncle Nick,

I do need to get my head on straight here as well.

When I load up ammunition to GI bullet weight/velocities (as well as duplicating GI match ammo weights/velocities) I near always find myself at the 49-51ksi point in QuickLoad -- far below the 62ksi max SAAMI spec.

Since SAAMI sets the 308 Win at 52k-CUP (p.16), corresponding to their same 62k-psi measurement on p.21, am I not duplicating the military ball ammo ballistics at the lower real/no-kidding 51,000 psi?





** 30-06 SAAMI is 50k-CUP <--> 60kpsi, ...and high 40's/low 50's kpsi is where my mil-ball/match loads for the M1/30-06 wind up at as well. (In fact a 150gr FMJ ahead of 51gr IMR4895 produces a standard 2,750fps for only 46kpsi)

[Unclenick]

Mehavey,

If you are loading to M852 specs, yes, your numbers are reasonable. If you go by the velocity book values, you have to allow for the military using a minimum chamber and keep their 78 foot velocity measuring distance. The 173 grain FMJ M1 Type bullet, from velocity tables, turns out to have a G7 BC of .239. This means that to measure their claimed velocity of 2640 fps at 78 feet out of a 24" test barrel, the actual muzzle velocity would be 2689 fps. Measured at 15 feet it would be 2683 fps. To get there in QuickLOAD using IMR4895 and WC846, I find both average about 55.000-57,000 psi depending on the case capacity allowances for military brass you want to work with (LC brass varies with the lot).

M852 was never loaded to the same velocity as M118. It's only rated at 2550 fps at 78 feet. The technical manuals give it the same peak pressure value as M118, which is obviously not possible given that the 168 grain SMK is shorter, lighter, and going slower. So the pressure number in the ratings is just a maximum spec and not an average. If I swap that bullet (G7 BC .218) into QuickTARGET Unlimited, I find the MV would be 2603 fps, and at 15 feet from the muzzle 2597 fps. In QuickLOAD with the same case capacity I averaged for M118 SB, the M852 pressures average 46,000 psi with IMR4895. That's pretty close to what you're reporting, so maybe that's the source of the discrepancy.

[mehavey]

One does need to be in one's CUPs
to have all this make sense.

[Unclenick]

I don't think there are enough characters allowed in one post to stretch the groan as far as it deserves. I'll have to settle for mixing up a pitcher of martinis.