45 acp 200 lscw jams

ac700wildcat · November 5, 2009, 07:43 PM

I'm shooting a RIA 1911. I loaded up some 200gr lscw's over 6.0 grains of universal clays. I had a bunch of jams after the spent case would eject and another one would start to feed it would jam up. The bullet would be started into the chamber and the rim would almost be behind the extractor (think thats what its called). Sometimes a tap to the bottom of the magazine would finish chambering the round and other times it wouldn't. This happens with 2 different mags that work perfectly with 230gr ball ammo. What would everyone guess the problem is. I'm thinking that maybe the slide isn't cycling all the way back and I need to step up the powder charge a bit. Anyone else agree or have any other suggestions?

tom234 · November 5, 2009, 07:55 PM

What OAL are you running ? I had random FTF problems with 1.235" AOL but no problems when I went slightly longer to 1.250" OAL. OAL is critical, especially with LSWC bullets.

ac700wildcat · November 5, 2009, 07:56 PM

Oal is 1.225

bgdv1 · November 5, 2009, 08:01 PM

had this happen with my springfield loaded. field strip gun and see if rounds drop freely into chamber.mine didnt. bought a lee factory carbide crimp/sizer die ran them thru and solved the feeding problem.

floydster · November 5, 2009, 08:04 PM

I run Missouri 200gr. SWC in my Witness Elite Match with a OAL of 1.252, never a problem with feeding, make sure you have all the belling taken out
of the case mouth and just a slight taper crimp.
Smokeyloads

ac700wildcat · November 5, 2009, 08:05 PM

The rounds drop into the chamber fine, belling is gone, and the crimp is fine.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · November 5, 2009, 08:11 PM

If your OAL is as short as it can go, then the next thing I would check would be your spring. When you cleaned your pistol last did you put it in the right way. I know with my Kimber there is a right way and a wrong way. When it is put in wrong (backwards), the cycling is rough and not very smooth....which could be part of your problem. Good luck!

Don H · November 5, 2009, 08:14 PM

Not all LSWC's are created equal. The 'standard' profile is the H&G-68 mold which casts a fairly long-nosed profile. Other mold patterns may cast a shorter nose that tends to not feed as well. The H&G-68 200 gr. bullets feed just fine in my 3" 1911 (and the others as well).

Another line to persue is how much of the cylindrical body of the bullet is above the crimped mouth of the case? Too much shoulder protruding can result in binding as the round is being chambered.

LHB1 · November 5, 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote: "The bullet would be started into the chamber and the rim would almost be behind the extractor (think thats what its called)."

Sounds like you might have a) too much tension or b) rough spot on your extractor. Do factory rounds feed OK? Also suggest increasing OAL until shoulders of SWC bullets protude beyond case mouth by about 1/32". With H&G #68 style SWC bullets, this will give an OAL of 1.240-1.250" and works well for many of us in various pistols.

SQUAREKNOT · November 5, 2009, 08:53 PM

It could be a new gun? Most likely you are loading too SHORT OAL and the
brass is hanging up on the edge of the barrel. A different mag may also fix the problem. Two cheap fixes-sounds like you have a small problem-and thats good!

ac700wildcat · November 6, 2009, 12:32 AM

If I chamber a round from the mag and then pull the slide back with my hand to get it to eject the chambered round and then let go of the slide it will feed a whole mag without any problems. The gun runs perfectly with all the factory ammo that I have tried, along with 100 rounds loaded with a 185gr xtp and the same 6.0 grains of universal.

Right now, none of the cylindrical part of the bullet is sticking out of the case. The mouth and the cylindrical part are pretty much even. Also, the gun isn't new, so there aren't any problems with it not being broken in.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · November 6, 2009, 07:05 AM

You are "limp wristing" it when you are firing are you? If you don't have a firm grip on the pistol, sometimes it won't cycle properly because your wrists absorb some of the force needed to cycle the gun. I have never used clays in 45 so I am not sure if this is a max load or near max load. Hope you get it figured out!

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · November 6, 2009, 07:08 AM

After looking up the data, 6.3 grns is max. If there are no pressure signs, I would try 6.2 grns....and then 6.3. Maybe you need just a little more umph...especially if you can chamber them manually with the slide (by hand).

Jim Watson · November 6, 2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Right now, none of the cylindrical part of the bullet is sticking out of the case. The mouth and the cylindrical part are pretty much even.

Load some with a little of the shoulder above the case mouth. About .020" is a good place to start. To check for headspace control, drop the round in the chamber with the barrel clean and out of the gun. It should go in freely and stop with the case head flush with the barrel hood. A little below is ok, but nothing above. Adjust seating to make it so.

If that doesn't work, buy roundnose bullets. The usual long nose semiwadcutter based on the old Hensley and Gibbs No 68 is meant to contact the feed ramp the same way hardball does and has a good best chance of feeding. But not everybody builds guns (or bullet molds) exactly to the original specifications.

If you can't make your semiwadcutters feed by tinkering with the overall length, you have the choice of shooting roundnose or paying a gunsmith to "throat" your gun.

Chucky64 · November 6, 2009, 08:50 AM

You have read so many different ideas about what is
causing the ftf with Your pistol. I have had similar
problems with certain types of lead bullets and it is
frustrating to be able to shoot the bullet you have
or want to shoot. I will tell You what I have tried to
solve the problem. 1st try a high quality magazine if
You can afford one. Try different OAL, take the barrel
out of the gun and see what the longest OAL reload
the barrel will take and back off from there. The
200 LSWC that always gave me problems would work
fine at max charge, but back off on the powder then
it would start to ftf. I did buy some extra power
magazine springs and It did wonders for my FTF. I
will tell You that in the end I just bought a 230 grn
round ball bullet mold, its what the 1911 was made to
shoot and it works flawlessly every time I pull the trigger.

.45 Vet · November 6, 2009, 09:49 AM

Another side of the coin. If the gun will empty a magazine when cycled by hand you may need a weaker recoil spring. I've always used Bullseye powder for light target loads as it offers a little snappier recoil. (here come the "it's too dirty" comments)...

Cloudpeak · November 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Not all LSWC's are created equal. The 'standard' profile is the H&G-68 mold which casts a fairly long-nosed profile. Other mold patterns may cast a shorter nose that tends to not feed as well. The H&G-68 200 gr. bullets feed just fine in my 3" 1911 (and the others as well).

Don made a good point. I had trouble feeding both of the Lee 200gr SWC bullet designs in a couple of Springfield's. The Lyman's (pretty accurate copy of the H&G) I now shoot work 100% in my CBOB (Springfield's sold). Here's a picture of a Penns bullet which is an accurate copy of the H&G on the left and the Lee on the right. Big difference.

aerod1 · November 6, 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Another side of the coin. If the gun will empty a magazine when cycled by hand you may need a weaker recoil spring. I've always used Bullseye powder for light target loads as it offers a little snappier recoil. (here come the "it's too dirty" comments)...

I have also been using Bullseye for light loads with the 200 gr. LSWC for my 1911 pistols. My Springer Loaded model , Colt Officer's model and my Auto Ordnance all like the loads and I have no problems in any of these guns with my loads. My OAL is 1.250. So far as Bullseye being dirty is concerned, it has never been a problem because I clean my guns. Bullseye is a great economical powder.

ac700wildcat · November 6, 2009, 08:34 PM

I'll have to try some of the suggestions and see what happens. I'll give the longer oal and the increased powder charge a try first and if they don't work I'll try some other suggestions. Lots of stuff to try and too little time tho. Deer season started here today, so I'll be busy with that for the next couple weeks. I might try to get a few rounds loaded tonight, so if I do I'll post the results.

ac700wildcat · November 6, 2009, 10:36 PM

I just loaded some more of these to 1.250" instead of 1.225 and cycled the slide by hand slowly and these longer rounds chambered much better than the others. They would both feed fine if I pulled the slide all the way back and just let it go. I'm going to shoot the handful that I just loaded tomorrow and I'm hoping they will work.

Hanzerik · November 7, 2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac700wildcat

I just loaded some more of these to 1.250" instead of 1.225 and cycled the slide by hand slowly and these longer rounds chambered much better than the others. They would both feed fine if I pulled the slide all the way back and just let it go. I'm going to shoot the handful that I just loaded tomorrow and I'm hoping they will work.

That is the length I use for my .45ACP loads. I also have a RIA (Compact) and my rounds have all functioned nicely. I have also let friends who also have RIA pistol use them with no problems. When I had my full-size they worked fine too.

My load is this 200gr LSWC over 4gr of Bullseye.

Edward429451 · November 7, 2009, 11:46 AM

I tried all this stuff to get the 200's to feed in my Colt.

I gave up and went to 452374 LRN and am a happy camper.

Played with OAL
SHoulder in/shoulder out
Crimp
UGH

My barrel is relieved chamber even but no go with those.

OldShooter · November 7, 2009, 12:08 PM

I use Oregon Trail LSWC 200g with OAL of 1.235 and they run trouble free in both my 1911 and CZ97B.

Sarge · November 7, 2009, 12:21 PM

Late to the dance here.

1.250" is the magic number for H&G 68 pattern bullets, assuming good mags & a GI spec gun. I've never had to vary from that more than .005 to get a healthy .45 to feed them.

Never determine seating depth by 'how much shoulder' sticks out of the case. Bullets vary between molds and case length varies even more. Use only OAL of the finished cartridge.

Always taper crimp, and do it like you mean it.

You can't determine crimp by outside diameter of the finished round at the case mouth. Neck thickness varies and so does bullet diameter, although cast bullets will invariably be 0.001+ bigger than their jacketed counterparts.

When setting up your crimp die, crank it down until about half the neck thickness is buried in the bullet. Then take a few finished rounds and push them nose-first against your loading bench, like you're trying to move it. Measure with calipers, before and after. A firm crimp will not allow the bullet to move. Not even 0.001".

If the bullet deep seats during the feed cycle, you have wasted inertia and ignored a foundation principle of autopistol design- fixed bullet ammunition of a specific length, within acceptable tolerances.

PS- Great illustrative photo, Cloudpeak. Thank you for posting that.

CrustyFN · November 7, 2009, 12:44 PM

I also have a RIA 1911 and haven't had a problem with 200 grain SWC. I load them as short as possible. I don't know the OAL becasue I don't load them that way. I load them so only around 1/32 inch is sticking out of the case to help elimate any feed issues. I am using Titegroup which is a much faster burning powder.

November 5, 2009, 07:43 PM	#1
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	45 acp 200 lscw jams I'm shooting a RIA 1911. I loaded up some 200gr lscw's over 6.0 grains of universal clays. I had a bunch of jams after the spent case would eject and another one would start to feed it would jam up. The bullet would be started into the chamber and the rim would almost be behind the extractor (think thats what its called). Sometimes a tap to the bottom of the magazine would finish chambering the round and other times it wouldn't. This happens with 2 different mags that work perfectly with 230gr ball ammo. What would everyone guess the problem is. I'm thinking that maybe the slide isn't cycling all the way back and I need to step up the powder charge a bit. Anyone else agree or have any other suggestions?

November 5, 2009, 08:11 PM	#7
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	If your OAL is as short as it can go, then the next thing I would check would be your spring. When you cleaned your pistol last did you put it in the right way. I know with my Kimber there is a right way and a wrong way. When it is put in wrong (backwards), the cycling is rough and not very smooth....which could be part of your problem. Good luck! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

November 5, 2009, 08:14 PM	#8
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Not all LSWC's are created equal. The 'standard' profile is the H&G-68 mold which casts a fairly long-nosed profile. Other mold patterns may cast a shorter nose that tends to not feed as well. The H&G-68 200 gr. bullets feed just fine in my 3" 1911 (and the others as well). Another line to persue is how much of the cylindrical body of the bullet is above the crimped mouth of the case? Too much shoulder protruding can result in binding as the round is being chambered. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

November 5, 2009, 08:31 PM	#9
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Quote: "The bullet would be started into the chamber and the rim would almost be behind the extractor (think thats what its called)." Sounds like you might have a) too much tension or b) rough spot on your extractor. Do factory rounds feed OK? Also suggest increasing OAL until shoulders of SWC bullets protude beyond case mouth by about 1/32". With H&G #68 style SWC bullets, this will give an OAL of 1.240-1.250" and works well for many of us in various pistols. __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB

November 6, 2009, 07:05 AM	#12
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	You are "limp wristing" it when you are firing are you? If you don't have a firm grip on the pistol, sometimes it won't cycle properly because your wrists absorb some of the force needed to cycle the gun. I have never used clays in 45 so I am not sure if this is a max load or near max load. Hope you get it figured out! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

November 5, 2009, 07:55 PM	#2
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	What OAL are you running ? I had random FTF problems with 1.235" AOL but no problems when I went slightly longer to 1.250" OAL. OAL is critical, especially with LSWC bullets.

November 5, 2009, 07:56 PM	#3
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Oal is 1.225

November 5, 2009, 08:01 PM	#4
bgdv1 Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: butler,pa Posts: 146	had this happen with my springfield loaded. field strip gun and see if rounds drop freely into chamber.mine didnt. bought a lee factory carbide crimp/sizer die ran them thru and solved the feeding problem.

November 5, 2009, 08:04 PM	#5
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	I run Missouri 200gr. SWC in my Witness Elite Match with a OAL of 1.252, never a problem with feeding, make sure you have all the belling taken out of the case mouth and just a slight taper crimp. Smokeyloads

November 5, 2009, 08:05 PM	#6
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	The rounds drop into the chamber fine, belling is gone, and the crimp is fine.

November 5, 2009, 08:53 PM	#10
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	It could be a new gun? Most likely you are loading too SHORT OAL and the brass is hanging up on the edge of the barrel. A different mag may also fix the problem. Two cheap fixes-sounds like you have a small problem-and thats good!

November 6, 2009, 12:32 AM	#11
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	If I chamber a round from the mag and then pull the slide back with my hand to get it to eject the chambered round and then let go of the slide it will feed a whole mag without any problems. The gun runs perfectly with all the factory ammo that I have tried, along with 100 rounds loaded with a 185gr xtp and the same 6.0 grains of universal. Right now, none of the cylindrical part of the bullet is sticking out of the case. The mouth and the cylindrical part are pretty much even. Also, the gun isn't new, so there aren't any problems with it not being broken in.

November 6, 2009, 07:08 AM	#13
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	After looking up the data, 6.3 grns is max. If there are no pressure signs, I would try 6.2 grns....and then 6.3. Maybe you need just a little more umph...especially if you can chamber them manually with the slide (by hand). __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

November 6, 2009, 08:50 AM	#15
Chucky64 Member Join Date: December 12, 2008 Location: Abernathy TX Posts: 36	Finding the right solution You have read so many different ideas about what is causing the ftf with Your pistol. I have had similar problems with certain types of lead bullets and it is frustrating to be able to shoot the bullet you have or want to shoot. I will tell You what I have tried to solve the problem. 1st try a high quality magazine if You can afford one. Try different OAL, take the barrel out of the gun and see what the longest OAL reload the barrel will take and back off from there. The 200 LSWC that always gave me problems would work fine at max charge, but back off on the powder then it would start to ftf. I did buy some extra power magazine springs and It did wonders for my FTF. I will tell You that in the end I just bought a 230 grn round ball bullet mold, its what the 1911 was made to shoot and it works flawlessly every time I pull the trigger.

November 6, 2009, 09:49 AM	#16
.45 Vet Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Location: Western Penn. Posts: 387	Another side of the coin. If the gun will empty a magazine when cycled by hand you may need a weaker recoil spring. I've always used Bullseye powder for light target loads as it offers a little snappier recoil. (here come the "it's too dirty" comments)... __________________ For those who've never fought for it, the price of freedom shall never be known...

November 6, 2009, 08:34 PM	#19
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	I'll have to try some of the suggestions and see what happens. I'll give the longer oal and the increased powder charge a try first and if they don't work I'll try some other suggestions. Lots of stuff to try and too little time tho. Deer season started here today, so I'll be busy with that for the next couple weeks. I might try to get a few rounds loaded tonight, so if I do I'll post the results.

November 6, 2009, 10:36 PM	#20
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	I just loaded some more of these to 1.250" instead of 1.225 and cycled the slide by hand slowly and these longer rounds chambered much better than the others. They would both feed fine if I pulled the slide all the way back and just let it go. I'm going to shoot the handful that I just loaded tomorrow and I'm hoping they will work.

November 7, 2009, 11:46 AM	#22
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I tried all this stuff to get the 200's to feed in my Colt. I gave up and went to 452374 LRN and am a happy camper. Played with OAL SHoulder in/shoulder out Crimp UGH My barrel is relieved chamber even but no go with those.

November 7, 2009, 12:08 PM	#23
OldShooter Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 846	.45 LSWC I use Oregon Trail LSWC 200g with OAL of 1.235 and they run trouble free in both my 1911 and CZ97B.

November 7, 2009, 12:21 PM	#24
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Late to the dance here. 1.250" is the magic number for H&G 68 pattern bullets, assuming good mags & a GI spec gun. I've never had to vary from that more than .005 to get a healthy .45 to feed them. Never determine seating depth by 'how much shoulder' sticks out of the case. Bullets vary between molds and case length varies even more. Use only OAL of the finished cartridge. Always taper crimp, and do it like you mean it. You can't determine crimp by outside diameter of the finished round at the case mouth. Neck thickness varies and so does bullet diameter, although cast bullets will invariably be 0.001+ bigger than their jacketed counterparts. When setting up your crimp die, crank it down until about half the neck thickness is buried in the bullet. Then take a few finished rounds and push them nose-first against your loading bench, like you're trying to move it. Measure with calipers, before and after. A firm crimp will not allow the bullet to move. Not even 0.001". If the bullet deep seats during the feed cycle, you have wasted inertia and ignored a foundation principle of autopistol design- fixed bullet ammunition of a specific length, within acceptable tolerances. PS- Great illustrative photo, Cloudpeak. Thank you for posting that. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. Last edited by Sarge; November 7, 2009 at 12:30 PM.

November 7, 2009, 12:44 PM	#25
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	I also have a RIA 1911 and haven't had a problem with 200 grain SWC. I load them as short as possible. I don't know the OAL becasue I don't load them that way. I load them so only around 1/32 inch is sticking out of the case to help elimate any feed issues. I am using Titegroup which is a much faster burning powder. __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.