What is this Airman carrying?

[bravo2uniform]

While perusing a History Channel documentary (Inside SAC - NorAD), I observed the pictured airmen closing a ballistic door. It appears as though one of them is carrying a stag gripped, cross drawn weapon of some sort. What's he carrying? That's assuming that the scene isn't some sort of re-creation.

[IMG][/IMG]

The video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFqtk_-7G0o and this scene is at 18:59 in.

[UncleEd]

At the time of SAC and from the 1960s to 1990s the Air Force used
S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpieces. They saw a lot of service in Nam.

Gen. Curtis LeMay switched the Air Force from the 1911 to the Smith.

Pictured are the SAC guards with the fancy gripped models, very snazzy.
The standard issue had the usual checkered Smith magna grips.

Today the Model 15s that truly carry the U.S.A.F. stamping on the lower left frame below the cylinder are highly sought after. I said truly carry because
like in all collectibles fakes have been created.

[Model12Win]

Keep in mind SECFO used M15's till like 1994.

[SaxonPig]

I'd say they are carrying unauthorized S&W Model 15s due to the custom stocks. The 4" Model 15 was a common issue weapon in the Air Force for security and some aviators. This from a movie?

[JN01]

I was a USAF LE Specialist from '81-'88. We carried the standard gripped S&W Model 15s, but some commanders allowed us to put our own grips on the issue gun, usually Pachmayrs. Never saw any stag grips though.

[bravo2uniform]

Thanks, all! I knew you guys could help me out.

[amd6547]

Stags on USAF Model 15's have been mentioned over at S&W forum...

[lamarw]

In case you did not notice, there are a number of other pictures if you follow the arrows. I only mention this in case there is something personal you may want to delete.

[DPris]

At the time I was in (72-76), SAC Elite carried dressed-up 15s, while the rest of us carried standard 15s.

This was a special unit & you had to be hot chit to get in. Haircuts every 24 hours, uniforms pressed three times per shift, salutes so sharp several cut their eyebrows starting out.

They were on display guard duty, kinda like the Palace Guard, had to look super spiffy.

And, at my first base, in So Dakota, our Security Police commander got a special dispensation to issue pearl grips to the LE side, again while us ground-pounders carried standard wood on our 15s.

He wanted his gate guards to look very cool.

So, I wouldn't assume what's shown in the photo is un-authorized at all.
Denis

[James K]

Maybe off topic, but the story was told that an old SAC sergeant passed on and (of course, being from SAC) was admitted promptly to Heaven. The Archangel Gabriel was showing the new arrival around, and the SAC man was surprised to find that inside the Pearly Gates was an installation that looked exactly like a SAC base.

Suddenly the alert siren went off and out of the ready room, heading for the flight line, stormed a rumpled figure in Air Force blue, chomping at a fat cigar.

"I didn't know that General LeMay had died and come to Heaven", the astonished sergeant said.

"Oh, that is not Curt LeMay," the Archangel replied with a sigh. "That is Jesus Christ - He just thinks He is Curt LeMay."

Jim

[DPris]

THAT one I can believe!
Denis

[Ibmikey]

My youngest daughter's Godfather was the Provost Marshal at an Air Base in 1970 a Colonel and the last PM in the AF. His base police units that wore dress uniform had M 15's, the security guys (at least one when the Colonel did not give the security word and I found myself on the dirt with a 1911 in my ear) were armed differently with shotguns, Carbines and soon after M 16's. The funny thing was the Colonel's requirement that only five rounds were carried in the M15's with an empty chamber under the hammer. Try as I might to convince him six rounds were safe he would not budge and informed me they carried their SAA's that way when he joined the NY horse cavalry as a private (many, many years before).

[849ACSO]

Maybe off topic, but the story was told that an old SAC sergeant passed on and (of course, being from SAC) was admitted promptly to Heaven. The Archangel Gabriel was showing the new arrival around, and the SAC man was surprised to find that inside the Pearly Gates was an installation that looked exactly like a SAC base.

Suddenly the alert siren went off and out of the ready room, heading for the flight line, stormed a rumpled figure in Air Force blue, chomping at a fat cigar.

"I didn't know that General LeMay had died and come to Heaven", the astonished sergeant said.

"Oh, that is not Curt LeMay," the Archangel replied with a sigh. "That is Jesus Christ - He just thinks He is Curt LeMay."

That's awesome!

[CajunBass]

I seem to remember those stag grips on a nickel Model 15 in the holster of a Air Policeman (Is that what they're called? The guards at the gate?) at the gate to Langley AFB, probably back in the 80's or so. Uniform, belt, boots, etc., so sharp and polished they'd hurt your eyes to look at them. Even the man's skin looked polished and buffed.

[jmr40]

Before I retired as a teacher I had a kid show up in class one day named LeMay. I was half joking when I asked him if he were related to General Curtis LeMay. I figured he had never heard the name. I was a bit surprised when he announced that General LeMay was his great grandfather.

[WC145]

I was an SP in the early '80s, spent some time as an armorer and the M15s we had in the armory had all kinds of grips on them - magnas, targets, Pachmayrs. I've seen other pics of the SAC SPs with the stag grips on their revolvers, they had their own thing going on that was nothing like the rest of us.

Keep in mind SECFO used M15's till like 1994.

The acronym "SECFO" sounds ridiculous and has bugged me since they came up with it. In fact, the only dumber thing they've done since changing the name from Security Police to Security Forces was to use the initials "SF" to refer to themselves.

[tlm225]

USAF SP 75-89. Those look like the SAC Elite guard with stag gripped M-15's which were authorized. The AF allowed us to change the standard grip out some time in the late 70's. As it was said earlier, most went to the Pachmayr grip but some used other wood grips.

[Model12Win]

Pretty sure these are from a movie, like S. Pig said.



No, these were SAC M15's. Lucky guys got to carry them with stag grips and (I think) nickel finish. Nowadays it's nothing but those big ugly Berettas with the bucket of bullets underneath. A real air cop wouldn't need them, six would be fine (yes even today).

[egor20]

I was watching an episode of the original Star Trek called "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" where the Enterprise goes back in time to the 1960s. While breaking into a SAC base Kirk gets into a fight with three APs (2 enlisted, 1 officer) and they were all carrying stag handled revolvers. Although the one the Officer drew on him looked more like a Model 10 rather than an M-15.

[Mike Irwin]

"I'd say they are carrying unauthorized S&W Model 15s due to the custom stocks."

Incorrect.

Those stocks were standard for SAC guard guns for some reason. There are many photos of guards carrying those guns, always with the stag grips.

Apparently the original issue were nickel plated Victory-era model S&Ws with the stag grips (fake, NOT real), and later upgraded to Model 15s, also with fake stag grips.

Here's a link to a National Archives photo of Bennie Davis, SAC commanding general and Queen Elizabeth.

https://research.archives.gov/id/6387512

This photo would have been taken during Elizabeth's state visit between 26 February and 6 March, 1983.

[kraigwy]

When I ran the Marksmanship Unit for the AK NG, besides marksmanship I was task with firearms training of the units.

Including our Aviation Units. They carried Model 15s but as they wore out they were replaced with Ruger.

Many bought their own so they wouldn't have to deal with the Ego's of Unit Armors. They were Model 15s and Rugers also.

I did the same, when qualifying with I used my Colt SP1, when I had to carry a pistol, I carried my personal USGI 1911a1, Even after we went to the Berretta's. A lot of our aviators didn't want to go to the Berettas either so I provided them with 38 ammo I ordered under the guise it was Marksmanship ammo.

The people who KNEW the regulations, either didn't care, or they really didn't know the regulations.

I always said that "Regulations were guidance for the commander, not doctrine".

[DPris]

Again- The stags were standard issue for SAC Elite guards, or possibly anyplace a local commander might authorize or issue them.
I was stationed at two SAC bases, we never had stags.
They were not worn by ALL SAC guards.

SAC Elite was the unit on display at SAC Headquarters.
It was its own deal, with its own uniform variant.
Denis

[DPris]

Might help to understand a little more about the Security Police, before the Security Forces branding was created.

For many years, Security was split into TWO branches- SP & LE.

SP (Security) handled asset protection.
We wore standard OD fatigues, but with bloused boots, and worked as guards for planes, bombs, missiles, and other physical assets.
For the most part, we carried, depending on where stationed & type of duty, 16s, .38s, M60s, and so on.

Leather gear was a Bucheimer holster & dump boxes, worn on the old OD web belt.
Hats were ballcaps, till about 75-76, when the beanies took over.

Regular SP, to the best of my knowledge, never was issued or allowed to carry anything fancy on revolver grips.
We carried whatever was on the gun issued.

At a new base, you'd qualify with a .38 & a 16, you were given two laminated cards with "your" guns detailed on them.
Beginning of shift, before guardmount, you'd hand your card to the armorer through his window, he'd trade you "your" gun for it, and stick your card in the gun's slot on the rack to show at a glance where a checked-out gun was.

End of shift, clear the gun under NCO supervision at the clearing barrel, trade it with the armorer for your card.
You carried, unless something broke, the same two guns for your entire stay at that base. One shift might be a .38 at an ECP or indoor post, next shift might be an area foot patrol with a 16.
And they never went "home" to the barracks at the end of shift.

You took what was handed to you, and you did not dress it up.

In a combat zone, variations on the theme occurred, but this was the basic process for a working SP on an established base with on-base assets.

LE (law enforcement) wore some form of blues with actual leather gunbelts, typically a white hat, wore .38s (during my time in the 70s), did not generally do guard duty, aside from base entry gates, and performed some of the functions of a base police department in terms of patrol in cars (not trucks like SP), and handling problems like domestic disputes & so on in base housing.

Ongoing investigations of certain "crimes" were handled by an Investigations Unit, which could be plain clothes.

SP was the closest to infantry the Air Force had.
We were expected to detect, report, and repel attacks on a base or an asset.

LE was more of a PD, and not considered much of a part of base defense.
When we did drills & simulated exercises, I don't recall seeing them much involved.
Never saw them in restricted areas (nuke-loaded planes, other priority aircraft, bomb storage compounds).

Investigations handled thefts, drugs, etc.

The SAC Elite was a stand-alone unit ONLY at SAC's headquarters.
They had their own uniform, wore white scarves, blue beanies (long before the rest of us were forced to), their own duty belt, white boot laces, and those crossdraw holsters with stagged Smiths.

SAC Elite, being the palace guard, was very selective in who they'd let in.
You had to apply. If there was a vacancy, and if your record was gold-plated & you could present the appropriate SH appearance, you might have a chance.
Gotta look spiffy around all those generals & colonels & queens.

Denis

[WC145]

Excellent clarification, Denis, that is exactly how I remember it being, right down to the armorer.

[UncleEd]

DPris, Mike Irwin,

In the picture provided of the honor guard greeting QE II, I wished
at least one of them showed some individuality and had orange laces.

If I was a general, I would have exclaimed, "Outstanding!"