Why 8 bullets simply isnt enough...

[Keltyke]

If I "spray and pray" and my first 5 shots miss, I deserve to die because I haven't trained enough.

No wonder you need more than 8 rounds.

My main carry weapon holds 10+1. If that isn't enough, I shouldn't be where I am.

If I need more than 8, I'll pick up a shotgun.

And that's my main complaint about made up scenarios. You can fabricate something where 8 or 16 or even 30 isn't enough.

Next thing is you'll be advocating for all of us to be carrying a BAR with a belt of ammo.

[WC145]

I don't know, 8rds and some spare mags worked out for Sgt. York. I doubt anyone here is going to face what he did anytime soon.

Like so many other things in life, it's not about what you've got, but what you can do with it.

[Wiskey_33]

I like this part:

start moving in a tactical manner

How is someone going to move in a tactical manner in my house? They don't know where anything is, especially when they're getting lit up with 00 buck from an angle they've got no idea where it's coming from.

This thread is lame.

[Sparks2112]

The lowest capacity firearm I every carry by itself has 13+1 of .45. I keep another fully loaded magazine with me as well. Not because I expect to go through 14 rounds of .45, but because you never know when a magazine change is what's needed to fix a malfunctioning handgun.

Edit: I also carry 2 guns at once a lot though, but once again, that's not a capacity fear and is more of "Ok if I can't get to the primary here's the secondary.

[overkill556x45]

There are usually 2 to 3 hostile characters

And, from what I've read, they will likely be at knife-fight distances. I've never heard of anyone being mugged from 25 yards away.

I'd agree that more ammo is probably better, but I wouldn't sell my 1911 just yet. (That said, I have an M&P 9 compact for carry--still waiting for my sheriff to hold the CCW class)

I can believe missing under stress past 15 yards--like if you're taking fire. I've been in a gun fight before, but it was at much longer ranges.(Afghanistan 2004)
It's hard to make hits under stress and at distance. Not so hard at 3-7yds, IMHO.

[cchardwick]

John H, don't listen to all these nuckelheads, there are situations where you may need more firepower from your handgun. For instance, look at what happened in Waco, all the officers surrounded the house and then started to 'spray and pray' before they went in (I'm not saying that what happened in Waco was the right way to do it).

Waco

In combat it's called 'COVER FIRE'. All these city folks with civilian CCW training and that have never been in combat (except in their local McDonalds) have no idea what combat is like. In your house you would use your 1911 to fight your way to the gun safe so you could grab your AR-15 with 100 round drum (or equivalent). If you had to move through a clearing with several people firing at you, you would have to run while at the same time shooting, not taking precise aim at each guy, but rather shooting in the general direction. What that does is stop them from shooting and gets them to find cover for the few seconds you are running to your gun safe.

Urban combat is not like rural combat at all, you don't have to worry about rounds overpenetrating or hitting civillans, even more so in a wooded part of the country where all your rounds will hit trees in a hundred yards or so.

There are a million tactical situations and just because we've never been in one doesn't mean it won't happen. The new big threat that the police are training for is terrist attacks with guns here on American soil, all starting to shoot at the same time. I can see this threat being real in a few years after the government bans most of our weapons, then we may need tactics like this to survive. It will be just you and your seven round handgun trying to defend fellow citizens from a mob of terrorists.

I agree aiming and taking out one bad guy after another while they stand still and take it is the ideal situation, but it rarely happens like that. Just ask the guys in Vietnam how many of them sprayed and prayed vs. only shooting nice and calmly when they saw a bad guy.

Also keep in mind the Armed forces is looking for a new handgun, one besides the ineffective 9mm. They are thinking of going back to the 45 ACP or at the very minimum the .40, and their requirements is that the guns must have a MINIMUM of 10 round capacity. That eliminates most of the 1911s out there on the market chambered in 45 ACP.

Spray and Pray: It's called COVER FIRE, and we are talking rural combat againt a bunch of combatants, not McDonald'S civilian warfare! Don't worry, most city people can't even comprehend life in the country.

[Wiskey_33]

Spray and Pray...sounds like an easy way to meet bubba in the clink, or die by lethal injection.

[Stumper]

My oh my. The internet can be a stupid non-place.

[WC145]

From the Official Mall Ninja Combat Arms Handbook

Chapter 33: SPRAY & PRAY - The in-home use of suppressive fire against multiple armed insurgents.

[Delaware_Dan]

Shot placement is a great idea, but try it against 3 mobile targets that are tactically evading you. You wont get a hit...

Don't worry you can barrow my trauma plate that I duct tape to my back.

C'mon please tell me you are joking please. If not please stop watching television and movies, oh and video games, no more.

[mavracer]

wc145 you almost caused me to spray my keyboard.

[anythingshiny]

COVER FIRE implies I have others with me and that I am covering their movement correct? Lets assume that yes, I am alone in a rural area..and yes I grew up in farm country...I still will not 'spray and pray'. 8 rds or 20 of 9mm or 5.56..does not matter if you are throwing them away.

To quote another forum sig line " I command all those who died from 9mm to RISE! RISE! I say!"

My on-target 9mm rds will still stop a threat faster than you throwing away the first 3-5 rounds as 'cover fire' regardless of the caliber.

Even when the zombies come and invade my local Arby's for their delicious horsey sauce...Me and the local boys will be bounding, communicating and putting lead on target.

Lets be done with this one shall we?

[Wiskey_33]

Even when the zombies come and invade my local Arby's for their delicious horsey sauce

I always figured that when they come, they'll be after the Apple Turnovers.

[fawcettlee]

OK. I'm off the floor now.
I know one thing.
Wherever the OP is, I don't want to be anywhere near there. It sounds waaaaay too dangerous. Assailants who move tactically and victims (I use that term loosely) who spray rounds.
You know there IS a country where even girls out on dates will carry an M16 like they do a purse. A country where there is a REAL need to be that well armed in everyday life.
How's your Hebrew?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Every few months, it is reported that the military will replace the 9mm for all and then they order 50,000 more M9s.

As far as Zombies at home, keep a supply of frozen brains in the house, throw them in front as a diversion and then make your escape to your armored SUV and head for the surivalist enclave and wait to repopulate the earth.

[fawcettlee]

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm REALLY enjoying this thread. I keep coming back to it. Its really brightening up a wet and miserable day.

[David Armstrong]

It will be just you and your seven round handgun trying to defend fellow citizens from a mob of terrorists.

I'm sorry, but that is so funny it deserves to be repeated.

For instance, look at what happened in Waco, all the officers surrounded the house and then started to 'spray and pray' before they went in

And look how well that worked out!

Don't worry, most city people can't even comprehend life in the country.

And apparently some people that live in the country can't quite get a grip on the life either.

[JohnH1963]

Many of you think and believe that just one shot from your pistol will stop someone. However, a determined enemy might survive multiple shots from a rifle and still have the power to kill you.

There is a mistaken impression that the "double-tap" to the chest will definately stop someone.

You can go back through the archives of Medal of Honor winners and see how many have survived multiple shots, but still had the power to kill.

There have been many well documented fire fights between officers and criminals where the criminals seemed to survive multiple hits from powerful pistol calibers. The Trooper Coates story is one where 6 full house 357 magnum rounds was not enough to stop.

For home defense, high capacity magazines and assault rifles seems like overkill to the casual observer that doesnt know better. However, someone who has entered your house on hostile terms is going to be a determined force. Those who enter a house are either truely ruthless or plain stupid. You are not going to stop the ruthless and the stupid with a few rounds.

So for that determined force, I can assure you that a six shot revolver will not be waiting for them in their path.

[Wiskey_33]

You are not going to stop the ruthless and the stupid with a few rounds.

How about 15 .32 cal pellets to the chest, face, neck? 00 Buck will stop an attacker. If he's got friends, they can meet the same fate.

[anythingshiny]

agreed on that point..I would argue that most on this board train to shoot until the threat is removed. Nobody on this board would ever assume the elusive "one shot stop" is in their hands. Which is why "we" train using hammer/double taps whatever you want to call them..center of mass and then ...if needed...more. It is a constant OODA loop of fighting, assess, scan and top off.

regardless of your philosphy on it...throwing rounds as cover fire/spray is bad business.

A bump in the night...or a loud crash will be met with 8 of .45 or 17 of 9 or 30 of 5.56 or maybe even 7.62...heck...if its Wednesday it may be 00 buck...Thursdays are reserved for the Sammy Sosa special edition.

[fawcettlee]

I bet even a medium sized city not only gets more home invasions but live under that threat on a daily basis than almost any rural area that you can name. If there's any group that need to be prepared for a home invasion, its us city dwellers. Hell, its happened at least three times within a five block radius of my house, with one fatality, and I don't even live in a really bad neighborhood!
Also, your point that people have been known to carry on fighting even after being hit multiple times only strengthens the case for a thoughtful weapons choice AND shot placement.

[KyJim]

JohnH, buddy, you got to make up your mind. Are you preparing for a mob of terrorists at your home in Montana or preparing to repel gangsters during your daily trot through the urban jungle. See, http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=324251 ?


I don't think anybody will argue that less ammo is better. The question is what are the trade-offs. Many of us balance factors of size, weight, capacity, and caliber. Given what most of us do for a living, 8 rounds is a reasonable compromise. There are no guarantees, of course.

[Billy Sparks]

I don't think anyone is arguing about "one hit stops" but so far you have suggested covering fire against roving gangs of serial killers or other unknown homicidal gangs. I mean if you want to walk around like you are on patrol in Iraq go for it but I really doubt the local population (that that is not roving gangs of serial killers and homicdal manics) are probably going to try to introduce you to the law enforcement types.

Edited to add: Okay I reread the post and realized that you are talking about roving gangs and a individual serial killers rushing homes. Not quite what I thought but still....

[JohnH1963]

In that previous thread about discussing gangs, there is the mistaken impression that I was speaking about an urban area. The simple truth is that many gangs evolve in rural areas as well.

Kern County, California has a gang unit that is indeed very active. Their gang units can be seen on the streets of Bakersfield. You wouldnt believe places like Fresno, Bakersfield or Salinas have gangs. These are rural areas and very spread out where you can drive for many miles and not see a soul.

I wouldnt discount the threats that can appear in rural areas. I would argue that there are more threats from gangs in rural areas then there are in urban areas.

I was once at a movie theatre in Alexandria, LA which you wouldnt think would be an area of gang violence. However, there appeared to me to be an overabundance of gang members. In fact, the local police had several units outside and one of the officers had told me and my buddy to simply leave as we didnt fit the crowd.

Many times when people are talking about violence and the need for weapons, they are usually talking about these rural areas where anything can happen and often does...

[MaxHeadSpace]

Try to stay out of war zones in the first place.