How does BP compare?

Pond, James Pond · July 17, 2015, 02:21 PM

I was looking at some BP rifles and revolvers online. I see some big bore calibres, but others that would be close to some centrefire cartridges used today.

And so I was wondering how the ballistics of BP firearms actually compare to centrefire cartridges.

For example, I was looking at rather an attractive 18" revolving carbine in .44 cal.

The .454 roundballs for that are probably about 150gn perhaps, then there is online velocity quoted at about 950fps.

Which calibres could be said to have the same/similar ballistic profile?

maillemaker · July 17, 2015, 03:37 PM

http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

Steve

maillemaker · July 17, 2015, 03:39 PM

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....allistics.html

Steve

Pond, James Pond · July 17, 2015, 04:00 PM

OK, so looking at those charts one could say that the 140gn round-ball is a similar weight to that of a 9mm (124gn) and travels at a similar velocity.

I am interested as the rifle that had caught my eye had an 18" barrel (YT video by a forum member as it happens) and I thought that with such a barrel length it might have some punch, but really it seems to be in the area of .38Spl +P or 9x19 +P.

In the 18" it might approach lower limit .357 Mag levels... cool! (from a revolver, not rifle barrel)

So, not earth-shaking, but not a .22, either!

g.willikers · July 17, 2015, 04:17 PM

The relatively small cylinder chambers don't hold the amount of black powder necessary to fuel the long barrel.
Remember the revolving carbine is still a handgun design.
To get better ballistics out of a BP rifle, more on par with a smokeless centerfire one, requires a muzzle loading rifle with plenty of room in the barrel for powder.
With up to 90 grains of BP, instead of say 35, things get interesting.
If you ever try a revolving carbine, be sure to hold it like a pistol and not like a rifle.

wogpotter · July 17, 2015, 04:25 PM

Figure that B/P has about 10% the "power" of modern smokeless powders. That makes for some BIG charge volumes.

Pond, James Pond · July 17, 2015, 04:45 PM

So in the case of the Uberti, it is essentially just pushing the upper limit of the revolver handgun performance rather than stretching into rifle territory... Correct?

g.willikers · July 17, 2015, 04:50 PM

Yeah, and if the barrel is too long, the bullet might even start to slow down a bit before exiting.

Pond, James Pond · July 17, 2015, 04:53 PM

Probably why Uberti cut the length down to 18". I understand the originals were longer!!

In any case I saw another video with a guy ringing gongs at 120yds, but I imagine if someone wanted to hunt with these (not that you can here, based on my understanding of the law) you'd be down to 50yds or so, at a guess!

g.willikers · July 17, 2015, 05:11 PM

Unless it's really accurate and you are hunting field mice.

Pond, James Pond · July 17, 2015, 05:20 PM

So as a hunting tool it is a dead end?

Just curious incidentally. These real-world applications help put its performance into a context that I find easier to grasp than just numbers and values.

wogpotter · July 18, 2015, 08:56 AM

Velocity, trajectory go hand in hand. The slower running B/P rounds used heavier bullets to provide "shock" at distance. Look at the Sharps buffalo rifles for example.

You can shoot distance with a rainbow trajectory, but energy needs powder to make it happen.

Andy Griffith · July 18, 2015, 08:59 AM

No, I would not say that on the revolving carbine.

At close range, a person could take any small game, up to and including smaller bodied deer. The thing that must be stressed, is close range.

The one thing that cannot be compared to modern ammunition, is the fact that in a muzzleloader, you are using almost pure lead, which in most cases will flatten (mushroom) out upon a solid impact and transfer more energy into the target and cause damage typically greater than their modern counterpart calibers.

A Lee Conical pistol bulled used in that same revolving carbine would give a bit more downrange energy in a full load.

Also, using some of the hottest powders available can and does make quite a difference. For instance, comparing 3F in KIK, Goex, Swiss- the Swiss in almost every test is more powerful and consistent from shot to shot. Also going up to Triple 7 from Hodgdon would boost the power level, but I don't prefer it at all, as it's more aggravating to clean than blackpowder (in my experience) if you are using any kind of grease in the chambers or bullets. Many people love Triple 7, and all I can say is, give it a try!

g.willikers · July 18, 2015, 09:29 AM

Joking aside, as Andy sez, there's plenty of game that is suitable for those types of arms.
Probably everything that medium powered guns have been doing for a long time.
There's plenty of BP forums with all the info one would need.

Triple 7 is kind of weird when it comes to cleaning.
While shooting, it's very low residue and allows lots of range time without fouling.
And with no sulfur smell.
But the small amount of stuff left in the gun is kind of tough to remove.
And it needs to be as it will seriously rust things up.
Very hygroscopic.

rodwhaincamo · July 18, 2015, 02:31 PM

Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 can get you around 500 ft/lbs with a bullet. But a max load generally isn't as accurate.

The modern .45 Colt (400-450 ft/lbs) is based on the downloaded original which started at 40 grns but was reduced to 28-30 grns.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4WNYGs2_UZw

Note that Triple 7, despite being reduced by ~15% still well outperforms standard Goex.

My Pietta Remington NMA has a max of about 35 grns of 3F with a wad and .457" ball. It's more accurate useful load is 30 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford/Triple 7 with my 170 and 195 grn WFN custom bullets. I estimate it to have near 375 ft/lbs or so. In essence it gives performance similar to a standard .45 ACP.

Pond, James Pond · July 18, 2015, 03:15 PM

Duelist's vids are good!!

I tell you... they're giving me a hankering for BP guns even though I can't shoot them!!

Going back to the issue in hand though, the results in that Ruger Old Army test show 5.5" barrels putting a 148gn projectile down range at about 1000fps, so this really is sort of 9mm territory....
(the Ruger is presumably a .45 if the Uberti's .44 is a 140gn roundball.... Correct?)

Going back to comments made in about barrel length vs powder charge and how the bullet may even be scrubbing off speed by the end of the Uberti's 18" tube, I am curious as to why Remington even made these guns at the barrel lengths they'd chosen!!

Is it that they simply did not realise that they'd over-shot the optimum velocity barrel length?

In any case, what would be the optimum length with the sort of powder charge the Uberti can muster?

roashooter · July 18, 2015, 04:07 PM

One thing most overlook..on revolver-rifles...be they BP or smokeless...is the flame/blast..that will do damage to bare skin!! A heavy sleeve or coat will be required to keep from receiving a serious burn from the escaping hot gasses that will and do flash out of the gap between the cylinder and the barrel!
In a post I can not find/retrieve...it was a story about a shooter loosing a thumb that he had positioned under the gap on a 44 magnum. The hot gasses severed his thumb completely! Now a BP revolver rifle will not be as intense, but you can be assured..you will NOT do it more than one time, before you find something to protect your arm from the flash!! BE AWARE!!!!

g.willikers · July 18, 2015, 04:07 PM

If, indeed, there was a loss of velocity due to the longish barrel, nobody probably gave a hoot back then.
As long as it was accurate they were most likely satisfied.
The idea that the longer the barrel the better was pretty much accepted as a given then.
Besides, without our chronographs, most people who bought them wouldn't have a way to check the bullet speeds, anyway.
So, why can't you shoot BP guns where you are?

Pond, James Pond · July 18, 2015, 05:31 PM

Quote:

So, why can't you shoot BP guns where you are?

I can buy BP guns from 1869 or older without any restrictions or licences. Those guns are unrestricted goods. The law, however, is a bit of a grey area. Guns and gun-powder are not the same thing and powder is a restricted good. I need a weapons licence to buy propellants and igniters (caps or primers), so whilst I can buy the gun without a licence, not having a licence means I cannot buy or keep those incendiary components. Ergo I cannot fire the gun.

The grey area is that, as anyone can shoot a range gun on range property without being a licenced gun owner, one could read the law as saying that I could therefore only shoot my BP rifle at a range that has BP and caps in stock.

I don't know that any do and so, most likely any BP gun I buy would be largely ornamental and if I wanted to shoot it as much as I want, I'd need to register it thus requiring me to make space in the gun cabinet due to caps on how many guns one can store in my type of safe. I like the idea of BP, but not enough that I'd ditch one of my CF guns!!

Still, as I said, I really like that Uberti and the likes of the Hawken and Kentucky percussion rifles, so who knows. Perhaps I can slake my new-gun thirst buy buying these BPs accepting that they may never go bang...

Pond, James Pond · July 18, 2015, 05:32 PM

So...

Anyone going to hypothesise on the optimum length for a 30-35gn charge of Triple7?

**JohnKSa** · July 18, 2015, 06:44 PM

There's a velocity limit when using black powder--maybe somewhere around 1500fps, I don't know the exact value. It's the same with smokeless powder--the limit is just much, much higher--somewhere between 5,000 & 6,000 fps.

Before smokeless was invented, if you wanted more power, you had to go with bigger and heavier bullets because you weren't going to push the velocity up past the limit. This led to some real monsters that were made for hunting in Africa. Bore diameters could exceed 1" and the recoil/blast sometimes caused the shooter to bleed from the ears.

Quote:

...I am curious as to why Remington even made these guns at the barrel lengths they'd chosen!!

Since most blackpowder "replica" style guns are shot with iron sights, a longer sight radius is very desirable. Also, it's worthwhile to remember that during the timeframe that the original guns being replicated were made, it was not so simple or common to measure velocity. It's entirely possible that they thought the longer barrels were giving them a velocity benefit even though past a point the longer length didn't offer much, if any, benefit.

g.willikers · July 19, 2015, 11:16 AM

It isn't necessarily a requirement to actually shoot or even possess any pre-cartridge guns to enjoy their history.
There's plenty of folks who collect them without any intention of actually getting the guns, or themselves, all dirty and smelly with shooting them.
I knew one fellow who had an entire wall covered with original BP guns and had never fired a single shot from any.
And wasn't ever going to, either.
All his considerable shooting activities were with modern equipment.

Smokin'Joe · July 19, 2015, 12:11 PM

Mr. Pond, Would it be possible for you to order B/P ammo and have it delivered to the shooting range. Maybe they would be willing to store it for use there only. Or maybe the range could order it for you. Just thinking out loud.

Pond, James Pond · July 19, 2015, 12:38 PM

Quote:

It isn't necessarily a requirement to actually shoot or even possess any pre-cartridge guns to enjoy their history.

True, but I confess that on a personal level, I'd still love to know what shooting BP feels like!

Quote:

Mr. Pond, Would it be possible for you to order B/P ammo and have it delivered to the shooting range. Maybe they would be willing to store it for use there only. Or maybe the range could order it for you.

It would need to be the range that orders, provided they have the necessary paperwork for ordering such materials, but if they can order ammo, I can imagine they can order some BP and caps, but the question then is, could they be bothered....

In financial/red-tape terms it may well not be worth the hassle.

I suppose asking is free and from there I can see if it would even be allowed. One thing for sure, though, it would only be an indoor range and I don't know if that limits BP shooting due to the smoke produced. Would you need industrial wind-tunnel type extractors running?

Jim Watson · July 19, 2015, 01:07 PM

A friend once brought his flintlock to the old (Depression era) National Guard armory indoor range here. It put out as much smoke as you might expect but it settled and cleared faster than the smoke from smoldering bullet lube on cast bullets shot with smokeless. So the air was clear by the time he could reload. If you had a lot of modern shooters there at the time, they might complain.

You have a revolver do you not?
One can of black powder (or synthetic fake) and some bullets with suitable lube might satisfy your yearning. Or it might stimulate your yearning to the point that you trade in your modern guns for period types.
As one wag in the field says, smokeless powder is a passing fad.

July 17, 2015, 02:21 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	How does BP compare? I was looking at some BP rifles and revolvers online. I see some big bore calibres, but others that would be close to some centrefire cartridges used today. And so I was wondering how the ballistics of BP firearms actually compare to centrefire cartridges. For example, I was looking at rather an attractive 18" revolving carbine in .44 cal. The .454 roundballs for that are probably about 150gn perhaps, then there is online velocity quoted at about 950fps. Which calibres could be said to have the same/similar ballistic profile? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 17, 2015, 04:00 PM	#4
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	OK, so looking at those charts one could say that the 140gn round-ball is a similar weight to that of a 9mm (124gn) and travels at a similar velocity. I am interested as the rifle that had caught my eye had an 18" barrel (YT video by a forum member as it happens) and I thought that with such a barrel length it might have some punch, but really it seems to be in the area of .38Spl +P or 9x19 +P. In the 18" it might approach lower limit .357 Mag levels... cool! (from a revolver, not rifle barrel) So, not earth-shaking, but not a .22, either! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; July 17, 2015 at 04:13 PM.

July 17, 2015, 04:17 PM	#5
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The relatively small cylinder chambers don't hold the amount of black powder necessary to fuel the long barrel. Remember the revolving carbine is still a handgun design. To get better ballistics out of a BP rifle, more on par with a smokeless centerfire one, requires a muzzle loading rifle with plenty of room in the barrel for powder. With up to 90 grains of BP, instead of say 35, things get interesting. If you ever try a revolving carbine, be sure to hold it like a pistol and not like a rifle. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 17, 2015, 04:25 PM	#6
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Figure that B/P has about 10% the "power" of modern smokeless powders. That makes for some BIG charge volumes. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

July 17, 2015, 04:45 PM	#7
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So in the case of the Uberti, it is essentially just pushing the upper limit of the revolver handgun performance rather than stretching into rifle territory... Correct? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 17, 2015, 03:37 PM	#2
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html Steve

July 17, 2015, 03:39 PM	#3
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....allistics.html Steve

July 17, 2015, 04:50 PM	#8
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Yeah, and if the barrel is too long, the bullet might even start to slow down a bit before exiting. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 17, 2015, 04:53 PM	#9
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Probably why Uberti cut the length down to 18". I understand the originals were longer!! In any case I saw another video with a guy ringing gongs at 120yds, but I imagine if someone wanted to hunt with these (not that you can here, based on my understanding of the law) you'd be down to 50yds or so, at a guess! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 17, 2015, 05:11 PM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Unless it's really accurate and you are hunting field mice. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 17, 2015, 05:20 PM	#11
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So as a hunting tool it is a dead end? Just curious incidentally. These real-world applications help put its performance into a context that I find easier to grasp than just numbers and values. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 18, 2015, 08:56 AM	#12
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Velocity, trajectory go hand in hand. The slower running B/P rounds used heavier bullets to provide "shock" at distance. Look at the Sharps buffalo rifles for example. You can shoot distance with a rainbow trajectory, but energy needs powder to make it happen. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

July 18, 2015, 08:59 AM	#13
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	No, I would not say that on the revolving carbine. At close range, a person could take any small game, up to and including smaller bodied deer. The thing that must be stressed, is close range. The one thing that cannot be compared to modern ammunition, is the fact that in a muzzleloader, you are using almost pure lead, which in most cases will flatten (mushroom) out upon a solid impact and transfer more energy into the target and cause damage typically greater than their modern counterpart calibers. A Lee Conical pistol bulled used in that same revolving carbine would give a bit more downrange energy in a full load. Also, using some of the hottest powders available can and does make quite a difference. For instance, comparing 3F in KIK, Goex, Swiss- the Swiss in almost every test is more powerful and consistent from shot to shot. Also going up to Triple 7 from Hodgdon would boost the power level, but I don't prefer it at all, as it's more aggravating to clean than blackpowder (in my experience) if you are using any kind of grease in the chambers or bullets. Many people love Triple 7, and all I can say is, give it a try! __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."

July 18, 2015, 09:29 AM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Joking aside, as Andy sez, there's plenty of game that is suitable for those types of arms. Probably everything that medium powered guns have been doing for a long time. There's plenty of BP forums with all the info one would need. Triple 7 is kind of weird when it comes to cleaning. While shooting, it's very low residue and allows lots of range time without fouling. And with no sulfur smell. But the small amount of stuff left in the gun is kind of tough to remove. And it needs to be as it will seriously rust things up. Very hygroscopic. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; July 18, 2015 at 09:35 AM.

July 18, 2015, 02:31 PM	#15
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 can get you around 500 ft/lbs with a bullet. But a max load generally isn't as accurate. The modern .45 Colt (400-450 ft/lbs) is based on the downloaded original which started at 40 grns but was reduced to 28-30 grns. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4WNYGs2_UZw Note that Triple 7, despite being reduced by ~15% still well outperforms standard Goex. My Pietta Remington NMA has a max of about 35 grns of 3F with a wad and .457" ball. It's more accurate useful load is 30 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford/Triple 7 with my 170 and 195 grn WFN custom bullets. I estimate it to have near 375 ft/lbs or so. In essence it gives performance similar to a standard .45 ACP.

July 18, 2015, 03:15 PM	#16
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Duelist's vids are good!! I tell you... they're giving me a hankering for BP guns even though I can't shoot them!! Going back to the issue in hand though, the results in that Ruger Old Army test show 5.5" barrels putting a 148gn projectile down range at about 1000fps, so this really is sort of 9mm territory.... (the Ruger is presumably a .45 if the Uberti's .44 is a 140gn roundball.... Correct?) Going back to comments made in about barrel length vs powder charge and how the bullet may even be scrubbing off speed by the end of the Uberti's 18" tube, I am curious as to why Remington even made these guns at the barrel lengths they'd chosen!! Is it that they simply did not realise that they'd over-shot the optimum velocity barrel length? In any case, what would be the optimum length with the sort of powder charge the Uberti can muster? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 18, 2015, 04:07 PM	#17
roashooter Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Posts: 508	One thing most overlook..on revolver-rifles...be they BP or smokeless...is the flame/blast..that will do damage to bare skin!! A heavy sleeve or coat will be required to keep from receiving a serious burn from the escaping hot gasses that will and do flash out of the gap between the cylinder and the barrel! In a post I can not find/retrieve...it was a story about a shooter loosing a thumb that he had positioned under the gap on a 44 magnum. The hot gasses severed his thumb completely! Now a BP revolver rifle will not be as intense, but you can be assured..you will NOT do it more than one time, before you find something to protect your arm from the flash!! BE AWARE!!!!

July 18, 2015, 05:32 PM	#20
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	So... Anyone going to hypothesise on the optimum length for a 30-35gn charge of Triple7? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

July 19, 2015, 11:16 AM	#22
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	It isn't necessarily a requirement to actually shoot or even possess any pre-cartridge guns to enjoy their history. There's plenty of folks who collect them without any intention of actually getting the guns, or themselves, all dirty and smelly with shooting them. I knew one fellow who had an entire wall covered with original BP guns and had never fired a single shot from any. And wasn't ever going to, either. All his considerable shooting activities were with modern equipment. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 19, 2015, 12:11 PM	#23
Smokin'Joe Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2010 Posts: 211	Mr. Pond, Would it be possible for you to order B/P ammo and have it delivered to the shooting range. Maybe they would be willing to store it for use there only. Or maybe the range could order it for you. Just thinking out loud.

July 19, 2015, 01:07 PM	#25
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,545	A friend once brought his flintlock to the old (Depression era) National Guard armory indoor range here. It put out as much smoke as you might expect but it settled and cleared faster than the smoke from smoldering bullet lube on cast bullets shot with smokeless. So the air was clear by the time he could reload. If you had a lot of modern shooters there at the time, they might complain. You have a revolver do you not? One can of black powder (or synthetic fake) and some bullets with suitable lube might satisfy your yearning. Or it might stimulate your yearning to the point that you trade in your modern guns for period types. As one wag in the field says, smokeless powder is a passing fad.