Handgun Help....Please!

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I'm not sure any of those is an upgrade over a M&P. M&Ps get the job done. That's what I care about.

[WC145]

If the DA/SA is an issue but you like how the FN feels, take a look at the FNS which comes in 9 and 40.

The FNX can be carried cocked and locked if you don't like DA/SA.

[LockedBreech]

Regarding tahuna's experience with the M9 being unreliable (and I'm not calling anything you said into question, tahuna, I have heard less-than-favorable things from some military folks), I think it's important to note that problems with military M9s tend to be related to one of two things:

1.) Poor maintenance (i.e., under-lubrication, soldiers not cleaning their weapons enough, sand gets in there and abrades the firearm) / over-use without replacement parts (e.g., failure to replace springs and locking blocks, parts with a stated service life of 5,000 rounds being run for 20,000-30,000). When the factory explicitly tells you to replace a component at certain intervals and you fail to do so, it's hard to blame the hardware.

2.) Poor-quality magazines purchased on military supply contracts (i.e., the notorious Checkmate magazines). Poor magazine quality is a poison pill for practically any semiautomatic firearm, which is one reason high quality 1911 magazines like Wilson or McCormick clear up a wide variety of 1911 feeding issues.

I personally believe that any firearm, subjected to similar conditions, would eventually start to have problems like the M9 has had. Guns are tools, and even Snap-On tools only take so much abuse.

With proper maintenance and Beretta or Mec-Gar magazines, the Beretta 92/M9 has no inherent reliability problems, and is in fact one of the most reliable designs on the market. While it's a tiny amount compared to many shooters, and not "proof" of anything by any means, I have somewhere north of 15,000 rounds through Beretta models 92FS (2013 production), 96G (unknown year of production, but it was a police issue weapon in the early 1990s), 96A1 (2011 production), and PX4 (2008 production) without ever having had any sort of misfeed.

Beretta makes great guns and if the 90-Two fits you well (there were some complaints with the grips being slippery, but if you like them that's what's important) that matters much more than any theoretical advantages or disadvantages of the platforms you're considering.

[ClydeFrog]

I was going to post a message here around 200pm but was cut off.

In short, the DA Only/CPO SIG Sauer .45acp police trade-ins are now sold out. $429.00 & free S/H was a great offer.
I'd add that many sworn LE officers in the USA now use the .40S&W. Id use or buy .357sig(which is better for several reasons) but the price & availability is somewhat scare nationwide, .
The .40S&W is great for patrol use. A mid-south state agency that recorded approx 94% of all use-of-force incidents around motor vehicles were impressed with the 155gr JHP .40S&W bullets.
The .45acp is good too but a .40 pistol like a SIG P229R DAK or a FNS or a Beretta PX4 Constant Action(C) would work great.

[101combatvet]

I've never had problems with the M9 or 92FS. I have close to 9,000 rounds through my Beretta, and yes I count them. Magazines are cheap and plentiful for the Beretta. Most LE agencies have gone to other calibers other than 9mm, not sure if that is a wise move or not. What caliber is carried most often by your department? What feels good in your hand? Test fire what you plan on buying. Consider shooting slow fire, rapid fire, do a few quick magazine changes. After firing how fast can you reestablish a good sight picture? Select what works best for you.

[DannyB1954]

in what possible way would the geneva convention limit the calibers they can choose?

It is not the caliber that is restricted it is the ammo. The military are restricted to using FMJ hard ball. Hollow point ammo is not allowed.

Also making statements like

you have definitely never been in the military if you think that collateral damage is not a major consideration

Makes you appear to be a know it all. I was in the military from 1972 to 1978. We had no hollow point ammo.

[WC145]

The Geneva Convention doesn't regulate ammunition/projectiles, the Hague Convention of 1899 does.

[tahunua001]

I'm sorry but once again, not geneva convention and I fail to see why a 45ACP in hardball is superior to 40 S&W hardball but 40 S&W hollow point is superior to 45ACP hollow points...

I am not trying to be a know it all but you are making a number of statements that are either misleading, contradictory, or flat out wrong.

[pete2]

An upgrade to me would be a reliable 1911, single stack. Learn to make your shots count.

[DannyB1954]

I fail to see why a 45ACP in hardball is superior to 40 S&W hardball

I never said it was. My point was that the 45 was not determined by experts to be a good LE caliber. The military uses it because they can not use hollowpoints in any caliber.

People want to be critical of me because I said Geneva instead of Houge, but the fact is international understandings do not allow the military the same type of ammo that has become the norm for LE. Some banter about the Navy Seals use this or that, but that does not make it the best round that is available to LE

[marine6680]

If you liked the feel of the Beretta... Then look into the Sig 226 or 229... the first is full size like the Beretta, the second is a little smaller. They also offer the 226 in the mk25 version, which has some improvements over the original for hard use in very harsh environments like salt water. Probably not needed unless you just want it. The 229 has a similar offshoot in the M11A1. I much prefer the decocker of the Sig to Beretta. Sig also just released the 227 which is chambered in 45.

There is also the CZ75 and its varients. The P06 is designed for police use. A bit smaller than the 75 and lighter. They offer a 45 version if you really want it. Its a bit larger to fit the larger round. They make decock models for duty use if cocked and locked is not what you want.

Both the Sig and CZ have similar profiles to the Beretta. I personally find them to be my 2 favorite pistols to shoot. (The 226 and the 75) Absolute pleasures in 9mm. The 75 fits like a glove and the Sig is close behind.

[DubC-Hicks]

Another recommendation from me would be the CZ P09 if you'd consider a 9mm. 19+1, the omega trigger is great, and it feels great in the hand to me. I guess they are very, very accurate too, which isn't surprising since its a CZ.

[colbad]

Your proposed choices are very off beat for duty carry. There are very good reasons why departments choose what they do as issue duty guns. I do not recommend that you re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Take advantage of the research that is out there by departments in your area. Talk to department armorers and range masters and other PROFESSIONALS.

My agency now replaced our Sigs with Glocks which are both exceptionally reliable duty guns. All our handguns are .40s so free ammo also guides my choices when looking at other personal FAs.

Does your department not issue or have a list of approved FAs to select? Aside from reliability there are also legal arguments that get stirred up in shootings when you use a FA that is not normally a LE recognized duty standard. I do not know what armors your department might have but free maintenance, parts, repair and ammo are important factors to consider as well as their qualifications to work on the FA.

As much as I like .45, I can shoot all the .40 my trigger finger can handle for free in .40 from the agency. Free and unlimited availability of practice ammo is an easy choice for me. Does your department give you free ammo in a partic caliber or support your choice of .45?

The other thing you need to consider is your department/agency courses of training. In particular external manual safety manipulation vs none. When we transitioned to our Glocks every agent shot over a 1500 rounds over a 3 day period to become familiar on a standardized course of instruction.

I do not favor an external safety on a LE gun, but that is my prefrence. Of course if you train properly you can get used to anything. I am told by friends on the LAPD that they do not even teach the use of engaging the safety on their Barettas to keep things simple. Kind of a strange philosophy to select a FA with an external safety and then not use it?? However, I have to admit that I did the same in Afghanistan (only because of 30 years of muscle memory with a Glock or Sig).

Bottom line IMO....talk to some professionals in the business (no offense meant here) rather than making this kind of choice off opinions on a web site.

[marine6680]

It sounds like (from his comments) that he is from a small town rural area...

Many times the agencies in these areas do not provide a duty gun, and the officer must bring their own.

Ammo may be free, but a dedicated armorer is not a given. They may or may not have a list of approved firearms, or merely a list of criteria it must meet.

Many agencies issue the Sig, so its not an inferior weapon to a Glock... just different. Some agencies pick the Glock for its training simplicity and ease of user maintenance first. The fact it is very reliable makes the decision easier. Not all officers are "gun people", some look at it as merely another tool they carry. For those people, ease of training and maintenance on their part is critical, because they are more likely to neglect both. (bare minimum required)

In my travels I have seen more than a few agencies with Sigs... I personally have not seen any that carry Beretta... and CZ is probably very rare, probably a few individual officers only. Though CZ is a common choice for many agencies in other countries.

If his agency has a list, that is where to start. Sometimes they have a list and a set of guidelines for straying away from the list. If he has an armorer, then talking to them would be a good idea, ask them what they feel comfortable working with. If no armorer, then keeping his M&P as a backup just in case may be a good idea... Or if he has another pistol similar in size and function to his final choice. Most likely never needed, but things happen, and he may not be blessed with a quick turn around available from an agency that issues and/or has an armorer.

It sounds from his comments that it is entirely up to his discretion what he carries, maybe with a few rules. If so, then all he can do is try to make the best decision on his personal knowledge, his personal preferences, and the advice from fellow shooters and officers. And then combine that all into a final choice he is comfortable with.

What we can't/shouldn't do is try to force his hand if there is no reason to (like a limited approved list)

We can merely give him opinions and options to consider. Hopefully without confusing him too badly.

[ClydeFrog]

I see nothing wrong, per se, with a new Beretta M9 or M9a1 model in 9x19mm or maybe the 96 in a .40S&W. I owned 02 Beretta Police Special series .40s with 0 problems.
I also toted a M9 9mmNATO for 24mo as a US Army MP.
I'm not a big fan of the slide mounted ambi safety but that isn't a huge problem. I liked the older 96D(DA only) format. It was safe & you'd avoid any false claims of cocking a hammer/shooting wildly.
The LAPD used the "neutered"(DA only) pistols for many years. After Chief William Bratton took over, the Glock 22/23 .40 became more common.

I, for one, also like the concept of having a frame mounted safety on a duty pistol. Proper training & conditioning can teach a officer/deputy to draw & fire quickly. Plus you get the added safety of weapon retention.
An argument could be made for using no safety lever type models for concealed carry/EP work but I've never had serious problems with either style.

Clyde

[tahunua001]

My point was that the 45 was not determined by experts to be a good LE caliber. The military uses it because they can not use hollowpoints in any caliber.

ok I'm sorry if I'm badgering you but that simply does not make any sense to me. if you are not arguing that the 45 is superior with ball ammo then why on earth would the military choose 45 over 40? the fact that they are restricted to ball ammo means absolutely nothing, believe it or not there is FMJ ammo for 40 S&W, and it's even quite plentiful. if 45 is not a good LE round and was proven so by "experts" then why on earth has it been around for more than 100 years and still in use by several major police depts and militaries around the world? this whole argument is illogical.
40>45
45ball<40 ball
military uses 45 because they have to use ball ammo.
that is the completely broken form of your statements and it makes no sense to me.


back to the OP and recent LEO comments and questions. I am thinking that the OP was issued a M&P and doesn't like it much. in our area(fairly rural area in Idaho) we have 4 PDs(city, county, state hub, and tribal) to my knowledge, city state and county all issue glocks(I believe county offers 22s and city and state have a mix of 22s and 17s) and tribal police issue M&P40s. it is my understanding that the local PDs have a pretty aging supply of handguns. with the exception of the tribe all of these PDs allow you to "roll your own" so long as you keep a certain stock of LE issue ammo in the armory and qualify with it. some of the larger cities put a huge number of limitations on what you can carry. some only allow DAO, some only allow what you are issued and some even limit what you can carry off duty. a lot of the poorer rural PDs are a lot more lenient since the more people rolling their own, the longer the issue handguns will last.

[TenRing]

To the OP, it sounds like there is nothing wrong with your 9 mm M&P but you just want to "upgrade" to .45 ACP but you're not sure if that would really be an upgrade. Thus, you have answered your own question. Keep the 9 mm M&P and save your money until you have a real reason to spend it.

You could probably make many guns work but why fix what isn't broken when you don't have easy access to gun shops and you would likely be stuck with whatever you bought?

Otherwise, talk to older officers in your jurisdiction and take guidance from them since they have been there and done that. Find out what your county sheriff and state police are recommending for their officers. You are asking questions that they would probably be very happy to answer for you. Also, as someone already mentioned, if your department provides free ammo in a duty caliber, I would stick with that caliber. This could save you hundreds of dollars per year.

[patriot 52]

Remember ammunition availability is important as are Magazines for any semi.
Finally got tired of going from one to another; Ret USAF Spec Ops.
.45 to 9MM on active duty even had an old S&W .38 can't remember the model no.
Since 95 have been thru everything from Beretta 92 FS to Sig and recently in the last 2 years, ATI Taurus G-2 Millenium 9MM, Spring XD 9MM.
S&W M&P Shield and std in 9MM finally settled with Walther PK380 primary carry (wife has same for years) and Glock 17 9 heavy shooting and training.

Been thru them all was not a Glock guy but they finally converted me.

Like 9MM for economy of scale and controllability in firing.
The myth of calibers is exactly that, hitmen leaned toward .22, .32 or .38
My 2 cents.

[tahunua001]

To the OP, it sounds like there is nothing wrong with your 9 mm M&P but you just want to "upgrade" to .45 ACP but you're not sure if that would really be an upgrade. Thus, you have answered your own question. Keep the 9 mm M&P and save your money until you have a real reason to spend it.

You could probably make many guns work but why fix what isn't broken when you don't have easy access to gun shops and you would likely be stuck with whatever you bought?

Otherwise, talk to older officers in your jurisdiction and take guidance from them since they have been there and done that. Find out what your county sheriff and state police are recommending for their officers. You are asking questions that they would probably be very happy to answer for you. Also, as someone already mentioned, if your department provides free ammo in a duty caliber, I would stick with that caliber. This could save you hundreds of dollars per year.

although this is normally good advice that should not be the end all be all. what works for one person does not necessarily mean it will work for another and as has been stated, familiarity is a double edged sword. because a particular officer is good with a M&P and likes it, then it is logical to assume that said officer would place the M&P on the top of his list. on the other hand another officer in the same dept can be a through and through glock fan and as such he will recommend the glock over the M&P. then there are the officers that know no other guns except the ones that they are issued, obviously that will be the best gun they've ever shot.

the OP has stated that he does not like the trigger on the M&P so this is not a case of "it aint broke". it is a good idea to ask other people's opinions but most LEOs are not gun guys and rarely shoot except to qualify, even the old codgers.

[LockedBreech]

Originally Posted by patriot 52

]The myth of calibers is exactly that, hitmen leaned toward .22, .32 or .38

To what degree this is true is not because .22, .32, or .38 are adequate service cartridges, but because a skilled assassin/hitman will not be detected before shooting, and will take only a few shots at point-blank range without resistance.

Service cartridges/home defense cartridges service an entirely different need, that in which there is an active aggressor, probably also armed, perhaps using cover. Tiny calibers are woefully inadequate at penetrating intermediate barriers.

The difference between calibers is highly exaggerated, and instances of kills with tiny calibers and failures to stop with large calibers are certainly out there, but the .32 is by no means the equal of the .40, a .22 is by no means the equal of a 9mm, etc.

[DannyB1954]

ok I'm sorry if I'm badgering you but that simply does not make any sense to me. if you are not arguing that the 45 is superior with ball ammo then why on earth would the military choose 45 over 40? the fact that they are restricted to ball ammo means absolutely nothing

The military is restricted to ball ammo, so that means that they can not use 9mm or 357Sig, or 40S&W with hollow points. They need a bigger hole to begin with, so that would be the 45. The military also does not use a pistol as a primary weapon. It is more of a backup or close quarters weapon.

LE is not restricted to ball ammo. If the FBI or 90% of the other enforcement agencies wanted to use the 45 with hollow points they could.

I would have to assume that those in charge of selecting a caliber for a LE division have a number of resources and tests that they used to determine the 45 was not appropriate for their use. They chose to develop the 10mm and then the 40S&W. So they actually had two times to choose the 45 which was readily available. They chose not to do it. I don't claim that I know what is the best LE caliber, but I can state that more knowledgeable individuals decided what was not a good caliber based on their actions. .

The OP opened up the idea that he had not fully decided on the 45. From post #1

The more research I do the more confused I become) to a 45 ACP

My posts were to state that for whatever reason, (liability, penetration, ammo capacity, recoil, or whatever), most major LE agencies have rejected the 45acp.

[marine6680]

This has turned into more of a caliber war than help for the OP...