Need info for a discussion

Tony Cam · November 6, 2002, 05:45 PM

Hi guys
A few people were having a discussion about forensics as far as shotguns went. The beef was the cops could match up a shotgun as murder weapon by the spray pattern. Someone also said they could match up the powder from the barrel to the spent pellets.
Now another party said that if you cut down the barrel after the shooting it would throw the spray pattern off entirely.
This is strictly from smooth bore shotguns.
Anyone have any comments or knowledge about this ?

Jim Watson · November 6, 2002, 05:56 PM

Silly.
All you have to do is to fire a couple of hundred patterns out of one shotgun barrel. There will be no two alike.

No doubt the type of powder could be identified by sufficiently refined chemical analysis if the range were close enough that powder from the muzzle blast hit the target. However, the wad is there to protect the shot from the powder and I would not think it would pick up enough to carry identifiable traces to the hit. But I am not up to date on ppt and ppq analysis.

The hull would be subject to all the hits and misses of fired round "fingerprinting."

Al Thompson · November 6, 2002, 07:23 PM

The only thing trackable would be the hull. Firearms ID by ballistic finger print is no where near as open and shut as folks would have you believe.

Dave McC · November 7, 2002, 04:23 AM

Tony, those guys have as much knowledge about real guns as Senator Schumer.

At realistic ranges, you don't have a pattern, you have what Forensic Surgeons call a "Bloody Rathole" wound. And, in all the centuries of shotgunning, no shotgun throws the same pattern, shot after shot.

As for matching up powder residue, a good lab could determine what brand of shell was used, but that's about it.

As for shortening the bbl, see answer 1.

Tony Cam · November 9, 2002, 03:48 PM

Thanks a lot guys, the input was appreciated.

November 6, 2002, 05:45 PM	#1
Tony Cam Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 22	Need info for a discussion Hi guys A few people were having a discussion about forensics as far as shotguns went. The beef was the cops could match up a shotgun as murder weapon by the spray pattern. Someone also said they could match up the powder from the barrel to the spent pellets. Now another party said that if you cut down the barrel after the shooting it would throw the spray pattern off entirely. This is strictly from smooth bore shotguns. Anyone have any comments or knowledge about this ?

November 6, 2002, 07:23 PM	#3
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	The only thing trackable would be the hull. Firearms ID by ballistic finger print is no where near as open and shut as folks would have you believe. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

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November 6, 2002, 05:56 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	Silly. All you have to do is to fire a couple of hundred patterns out of one shotgun barrel. There will be no two alike. No doubt the type of powder could be identified by sufficiently refined chemical analysis if the range were close enough that powder from the muzzle blast hit the target. However, the wad is there to protect the shot from the powder and I would not think it would pick up enough to carry identifiable traces to the hit. But I am not up to date on ppt and ppq analysis. The hull would be subject to all the hits and misses of fired round "fingerprinting."

November 7, 2002, 04:23 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Tony, those guys have as much knowledge about real guns as Senator Schumer. At realistic ranges, you don't have a pattern, you have what Forensic Surgeons call a "Bloody Rathole" wound. And, in all the centuries of shotgunning, no shotgun throws the same pattern, shot after shot. As for matching up powder residue, a good lab could determine what brand of shell was used, but that's about it. As for shortening the bbl, see answer 1.

November 9, 2002, 03:48 PM	#5
Tony Cam Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 22	Thanks a lot guys, the input was appreciated.