Perp shot multiple times 40S&W and 223 still fighting when cuffed

[hardluk1]

There might have been a 0 missing from behind the 1 . Cops and adrenalin just don't mix well sometimes, dam thats a lot of shots and alot of miss's. Wonder if some of the shallow shots went through an arm or were deflects ,,maybe off the road concedering how good there hit ratio was. Take away the high cap guns and 223 rifles . Give this guys 30 cals. maybe 30/30's or just a 309 bolt and shotguns not or. Give them both. Put a good 7 or 8 shot revolver with a 357mag hunting round in it for one thing ,kill'n a person. and then turn them loose. If going to a shooting call, the rifles and shotguns should be used up first and revolvers only as a last resort. Leo's have proven to many times most can't shot under stress as it is. With 30cal bullets you don't have to worry as much about the bullet design, maybe a 30/30 or just a short bolt gun in 308 and issue shot guns ,put several buck shot loads followed buy some slugs or make them pattern there shotguns with screw in chokes so they can exstend there range for a kill shot.

[comn-cents]

It's amazing that this is still going and does anyone really know if any of this is real?
Seems that there is a picture of a guy on a table(I can get that off the net), some x-rays (I can get that off the net also), who knows who's those are and a bunch of inconsistencies.
A bunch of use saying that we know a better way to deal with this situation. Seems, well, silly. I know I’ve played out what I would do if someone was shooting at me but when it happened, once I got behind the tree I wasn’t going to stick my head out.
If it is a real story I'm just glad it TURNED OUT the way it did. BG, done! GG, alive!

[MLeake]

... that another poster brought up: Suppressive fire.

Shots intended to hold the adversary in place, hopefully in order to allow allies to achieve better tactical positions.

This would up the round count, and lower the hit percentage. Assuming the area was not near bystanders, which would make suppressive fire much more of a potential liability, this is a valid tactic, especially if a friendly is at risk.

Underlying the whole thing, of course, is that at the range, whether static or IDPA, targets don't shoot back. Hit percentages are going to be lower, once the fire is going both ways. This is true for John Q Public, the police, and for that matter SF guys (I knew a Green Beret who later become a ROTC instructor, who told a tale of running into a VC back in the day; both were caught by surprise, both emptied rifles in auto mode while retreating to cover, neither apparently was hit).

I have friends who are Marine and Army snipers; they shoot better than anybody else I know. They also agree that when rounds start flying, hits go down. This is one of the reasons those guys train so hard at cover and concealment. They do best when the targets don't know it's coming. Keeps the targets from moving and hiding, and minimizes the return rounds before exfil.

[Mike Irwin]

Fuh!

They should have shot this individual once in the pinky finger with a .45 ACP.

Everyone knows that a .45 is so violently effective that it would have expelled the entire contents of the man's body through his nose, leaving only an easily-apprehended and cuffed skin bag on the ground.

[Rich Miranda]

I find it pretty hard to knock officers for poor shot placement when they were ambushed and on the defensive. The first officer was shot and incapacitated immediately, and the others probably didn't know how bad he was, if he was dying, etc. Sounds like a bad situation, period.

Handsome fellow. It's a shame he didn't feel life was worth enjoying.

[kymasabe]

The whole thing sounds bogus to me. The x-ray shows a shattered right arm but I don't see a big hole in the guys arm. All those shots thru his lower torso and only damage was the broken hip?
Lastly, Speer Gold-Dots can't expand in only 1 inch of tissue, not possible and I'd expect to see alot more tissue damage from .223 TAP ammo.

I'm not buying it. It's a hoax.

[Skans]

One 10mm hit anywhere on this guy would have instantly put him down for good.



(Sorry, I just had to say that)

[jedi391]

Personally, I find armchair (or the modern equivalent of keyboard) quarterbacking at best juvenile and lacking in wisdom and at worst despicable by those who have been there (as I have) and should know better, even if it did go exactly as it should have in our personal experiences. Of course my father, Bronze star medal winner among others in Vietnam, taught me that early in life, the man still detests an armchair quarterback wether football or combat.......I just say praise God the good guys won if the story is legit...

[Skans]

"Armchair Quarterbacking" is what forums like this one are for. What the heck do you think we are really doing here? We take a tactical situation where things didn't go as planned and have discussions about how they could have been better or worse. We have theoretical discussions on which firearm is best for a given situation. We discuss ballistic numbers, caliber, penetration into ballistic geletine, etc.

If this were a religious forum, I'd agree with you - just say "God Bless" and shut your trap about anything else.

Like it or not, we all have a little "mall ninja" in is somewhere. Guns are more than just tools to most of us. Otherwise, we would all own only one handgun, a couple boxes of ammunition, take our guns to a gunsmiths to fix them when it stops working, or get rid of it, and leave it in bone stock condition.

Notice how there isn't any forum (that I'm aware of) out there to discuss electric can openers.

"....what do you guys think? If he would have only used the Hamilton Beach Smooth Edge 76600, there would have been less of a chance that he would have cut himself on the lid....."

[easyG]

The bullet appearing near the heart in the x-ray, again, doesn't mean it actually came near the heart. The bullet could have been in front of or behind the heart. X-rays don't really perceive depth.

It's really too bad there were no "cross-table lateral" radiographs to check the depth of the bullets.
Without those we can only take the coroner's word about the penetration.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm not buying it. It's a hoax.

It was a real event, but the initial autopsy findings were discredited by further investigation.

[Deaf Smith]

I suggest we consider this:

a) most of the rounds fired were suppresive fire.

b) the .40s that struck did fine for the most part.

c) the 5.56 did as designed.

d) like it said, shot placement is everything. Even the magic .45 would have done the same thing.

e) If the opponent is on drugs, as I suspect this one was, it's going to take a CNS hit to stop him reguardless of what weapon you have (and that includes a shotgun past 10 yards.)

I hope the officer who was injured recovers fully.

[LanceOregon]

The whole thing sounds bogus to me. The x-ray shows a shattered right arm but I don't see a big hole in the guys arm. All those shots thru his lower torso and only damage was the broken hip?
Lastly, Speer Gold-Dots can't expand in only 1 inch of tissue, not possible and I'd expect to see alot more tissue damage from .223 TAP ammo.

I'm not buying it. It's a hoax.

If this is a hoax, then the guy playing the role of the perpetrator really got the raw end of this deal.

-

[Double Naught Spy]

The whole thing sounds bogus to me. The x-ray shows a shattered right arm but I don't see a big hole in the guys arm. All those shots thru his lower torso and only damage was the broken hip?
Lastly, Speer Gold-Dots can't expand in only 1 inch of tissue, not possible and I'd expect to see alot more tissue damage from .223 TAP ammo.

I'm not buying it. It's a hoax.

Damage to the shattered right arm originated disto-medially. Look at image 15 of the powerpoint presentation and you can see the wound on the inside of his arm, near the elbow, but only partially.

As for the damage to the hip region, little was vital, hence little discussion.

As for the Speer Gold Dot penetration issue, part of the reason for the powerpoint presentation was to correc inaccuracies of the medical examiner's report, specifically about ammo performance. The presentation specifically notes that the Gold Dots cannot expand in just 1" (page 19, which you maybe failed to read?) and that the ammo did not fail as report (page 20).

You might expect more damage from the TAP ammo, but as noted, that ammo failed FBI tests.

[ReNtaPiG]

I can't buy into the hype either...I understand in certain instances a perp wouldn't even know he/she has been shot, depending on stress levels and adrenaline...but this is just ridiculous

[jon_in_wv]

I was sent this story months ago. I call total BS on it. There are so many things in that story that just don't add up. You guys should be a little more critical instead of just assuming this is true.

[Deaf Smith]

In one of Mas Ayoob's books it shows a prep with, I think, 40 or 50 hits. The guy was photoed on the autopsy table. So yes, some people can take an awful lot of lead if not hit in the right place.

[csmsss]

The writeup is self-contradictory as well as somewhat hard to follow, but...the obvious conclusion is that a determined individual can survive any number of wounds which might eventually prove fatal, but in the immediate event continue to fight aggressively, even if not terribly effectively. The threat isn't over until the threat is over - period. Some folks just don't fall down and go fetal when they're wounded, and it's a huge mistake to assume they will. Keep firing until you are quite certain there is no more threat.

[vox rationis]

So yes, some people can take an awful lot of lead if not hit in the right place.

exactly, as we know, the body can take amazing amounts of trauma, and from pictures I glanced at, there didn't seem to be clear shots into vital zones (CNS, heart, major vessels); and remember even if the heart is totally pulverized, it can still roughly take up to 6-10 seconds for loss of consciousness to occur

and I'm not a trauma surgeon, but as far as that distal humerus fracture from that .40 goes, actually I'm pretty impressed by that, but the reason you might not see a big open wound is that skin is very resilient so the bullet may have fractured the bone yet lost all of its energy and either not exited or not created an impressive exit wound (I can't remember if the round is still visible next to the fracture, on the Xray; I think it is).

that ankle joint obliteration from the 5.56 round is also pretty impressive, but I'm not surprised with a 3000fps round that has a very high potential for fragmentation

[Double Naught Spy]

If the opponent is on drugs, as I suspect this one was...

Only a small amount of marijuana was found in his system, so drugs don't seem to play a significant role here.

I was sent this story months ago. I call total BS on it. There are so many things in that story that just don't add up. You guys should be a little more critical instead of just assuming this is true.

Okay, let's be critical. What doesn't add up?

[jon_in_wv]

I don't want to rehash something I read months ago. Like I said, be more critical on your own, you should be able to figure it out. I'm sure the pictures are real but the report is full of contradictory statements. I think the back story and the report are nonsense. Thats just my opinion, if you want to swallow it go ahead.

For example: "He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds
expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

If all rounds expanded why does the x-ray clearly show the round in his throat that supposedly only penetrate on inch clearly NOT expanded.

A man is shot 5 times in the chest and abdomen and its not life threatening? Not to mention, I dont' know what you consider the "chest" but I don't see five holes in his chest do you?

Penetrated less than one inch yet managed to smash an arm bone and still be a "pristine bullet" what the heck does that even mean?

Look at the x-ray of the abdomen. There appears to be a lot of internal damage (to me at least). The x-ray do NOT show you depth. Look at the bullet right in front of his heart. Is there a bullet hole anywhere on his chest in that area? NO. If the bullet only penetrated and inch there would have to be a bullet hole somewhere within an inch of all the bullets in the x-ray and vice versa.

There is a wound on the right side of his chest adjacent to the arm wound. It appears to me the bullet may have exited his chest cavity and entered his arm stopping after it struck his arm bone.

How is this "FBI" report circulating around on blogs, etc.....Is there a 'Defensive Systems Unit"?? The logo looks pretty hokey.

This looks to me like a hokey email someone sent out to look smart and prove something they wanted to prove. I've seen a TON of these over the years. 90% of which prove to be false.

I don't take this thing or its supposed origins or the story or its conclusions very seriously.

[Double Naught Spy]

For example: "He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).

If all rounds expanded why does the x-ray clearly show the round in his throat that supposedly only penetrate on inch clearly NOT expanded.

I see your problem with the presentation is that you missed the whole point of the presentation. You cited the NTOA blog information provided that was background information as to why this presentation was done. This presentation ...

Stemmed from apparently inaccurate initial
information from Coroner and/or Medical
Examiner.

So they hoped to correct the inaccuracies of the ME report concerning bullet performance. Note that they specifically point out as I noted above that of course ammo isn't going to expand in just 1" of penetration. That ammo penetrated much more than one inch, obviously.

What is noted in the presentation is that the medical examiner's data was incorrectly reported on the NTOA blog, hence the uprising about whether ammo performed properly or not.

A man is shot 5 times in the chest and abdomen and its not life threatening? Not to mention, I dont' know what you consider the "chest" but I don't see five holes in his chest do you?

Well, this Orlando cab driver was shot a total of 8 times with 3 shots traversing his chest with no organ damage and he was released from the hospital within 12 hours.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...ab+driver+shot

You don't see 5 holes in the chest? I see at least 7 including the chest tube hole and the long slide on his right ribs (page 12) above the chest tube and left of the ruler). So I see 5 including one huge gash that is a grazing through and through. However, we don't see his back or his lateral left ribs either in the photos where another hole may be located (page 15).

What does "chest" mean? It depends on the person giving the statement, but the chest is often a generalized term referring to everything above the abdomen and below the neck, not including the appendages. The holes are there. Go back and count.

So once you get over the fact that the report isn't presenting the ME's data as accurate, and is in fact refuting the ME data, then maybe you can start to see that the criteria you feel make this report bogus are not valid criteria.

This doesn't prove the report valid, but directly cancels many of your concerns.

[jon_in_wv]

Not enough of them. Believe what you want.

[Double Naught Spy]

And this is without seeing the back side of the chest cavity or the lateral left side and well as not including the hole for the chest tube.

[spyderdude]

The human body is a complex system that is surprisingly strong. I am somewhat surprised at the guy surviving multiple .223 rounds, but there is no magic bullet that can drop a man in one or two shots. Shotgun rounds can also fail to stop a man hopped up on illegal drugs, you may have to empty the entire mag tube just to get the guy to stop. Bullets will perform in various ways depending on what angle the bullet enters and where it stops and how well it expands after going through layers of cotton and denim.