antler point restrictions

[ChaperallCat]

I am told that the antler point restrictions in michigan are for my benefit. That i awill get bigger deer with more horns on them.

Sadly its a joke. Using the new rules, for me 4 points on one side minimum, i can only shoot does. The biggest deer ive seen in 3 years in a 5 point. Guess what, its a fork on one side.

Yet the irony is that the people who voted in these laws, are the east siders who come to my area and get 2i0-30 anterless tags and obliterate anything that moves.

Deer you shoot restrictions would be better.

[Old Stony]

I would be happier in my area with a point restriction on our deer. We can shoot spikes or does, but if there are more points than a spike it has to be at least 13' across the widest point of the rack. Try judging that from a distance !!
We are given a printed illustration of the horns in relation to the upright ears of an alert buck to use for comparison, but 1/2 inch could result in some stiff legal penalties.
I've watched some goofy bucks that should be culled from the gene pool and had to let them go or face the law.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

It's a sign of the times. Harvest all the doe's & fawns instead. Those who consider themselves meat hunters get their taste. The bigger bucks are few in numbers and those purposely hunting for one go home skunked for 4-5 years in a row. Those smaller bucks given a (go free/pass) by hunters because their told too. Their left to breed whatever is left. The rest of the year its Grey wolf predation cleaning out the woods. "If I were a deer living in MN or MI. I would pack my suitcase and move to Illinois or Kansas. No doubt about it!!"

S/S

[Old Stony]

I ran across a buck last year that was left to rot. It had about a 12" rack so obviously someone had misjudged it and it went to waste. I think that sort of thing probably happens often in this neck of the woods.

[Yankee Doodle]

This stupidity has now been applied in certain areas in New York. Minimum of three points on one side. Over the last three years, I have had a total of 23 bucks within shooting range. Had to let them all go happily on their way. Not one of them was legal to shoot.
However, on opening morning, just at legal shooting time, it sounded like world war 3 had broken out. The ony thing I can think of, is that all the legal deer were on somebody elses property. Yeah, right.
To make matters worse, it is virtually impossible to get a doe tag in the area I hunt.
What the hell are they trying to prove?

[dahermit]

I am told that the antler point restrictions in michigan are for my benefit...

Not being mind-readers, it would be helpful for you to tell us what those restrictions are.

[NoSecondBest]

I'm in my mid sixties. I've shot somewhere around150-175 deer in my life. Most were bucks (I hunt several states). I've gotten some pretty nice bucks over the years. Do you know how many sets of horns I kept? None. I like eating venison, and I like shooting bucks. I just don't hunt for the horns. So who decided that what I do isn't right and everyone should cater to the horn hunters? Why is it better to shoot big horns? My point is, who are we making these rules for? The majority? No one asked my opinion and I pay taxes and have bought a lot of hunting licenses over the last 52 years I've hunted. FYI, I quit shooting does years ago. And no, I don't shoot the first buck that comes along. There are less and less deer hunters (actually all hunters) every year and no one seems to care. Let's just keep making up a lot of useless rules for a few people and keep heading in that direction.

[kraigwy]

We don't have point restrictions, I wish we did. If a guy needs meat there are doe tags (I don't think enough does are harvested in my area).

But if you're after bucks why not let then grow. Spikes and forked horns are nothing but meat deer, might as well thin out some does.

But I wouldn't like rules that require me to have calibrated eyes. They do that in many places in Alaska on moose, I'm not sure I can tell 60 inches from 58 or 59 at 300 yards. I can see that would lead to a lot of dead critters going to waste in the field.

[palabman]

We've had them for years here in Pennsylvania. Some areas are 4 pts on one side, others are 3. The biologists claim this is good for the herd cause it lets the younger buck survive to breed. I tend to disagree. My logic is that you would want the huge buck saved to pass on their genes. Who knows how big of a rack a spike will ever have? They would never be able to get hunters to pass up a trophy so they went with the latter plan.

Some love it, some hate it. The archers tend to love it cause they have more opportunity to take them when they are in the rut and "dumb". Many rifle hunters in the north woods hate it because it makes it a lot harder to fill your tag. If you are not a trophy hunter and just want the meat, it sucks. I have passed up on buck that looked legal but I was not quite sure had a brow tine.

[palabman]

I ran across a buck last year that was left to rot. It had about a 12" rack so obviously someone had misjudged it and it went to waste. I think that sort of thing probably happens often in this neck of the woods.

This happens in PA all the time. I have seen mor 4 points laying unclaimed in the wood than ever. People shoot what they think is a 5 or 6 point and then find no brow tine and rather than be fined they leave it lay. It's not right but that's what happens.

[NoSecondBest]

We don't have point restrictions, I wish we did. If a guy needs meat there are doe tags (I don't think enough does are harvested in my area).

But if you're after bucks why not let then grow. Spikes and forked horns are nothing but meat deer, might as well thin out some does.

New York State, in its infinite wisdom, has applied antler restrictions in some areas and wants to expand that process. At the same time they are reducing doe permits in a lot of areas due to not having enough deer in those areas. They don't have a clue what they're doing. I keep meeting people all the time in the local restaurants, etc. who complain about not seeing any deer. One guy had his sixteen year old son with him and they hunted in an area near me for a week and saw three deer. The son said it was his first and last year deer hunting. Too boring looking at trees all week. I hear this all the time. The majority of hunters want to see deer and shoot something with horns, any horns. A minority want to shoot big bucks. Too many video hunters anymore. They watch all the CDs of big name paid hunters who hunt on posted or high fence areas shooting big bucks. They don't realize those bucks cost big bucks to shoot. They are never going to have hunts like that on public land. I have 167 acres of land and I put in food plots and have old orchards, etc on my land. I have a lot of deer and I have no problem harvesting deer every year. Not many people have that luxury. Antler restriction just won't work on hunting in places like NY where almost all the land is posted and there are way too many hunters left looking for a place to hunt on public land. There is a reason why we're losing hunters and antler restriction will do a lot to keep it going down hill. Pennsylvania if a prime example. Their antler restriction is a disaster.

[palabman]

Pennsylvania if a prime example. Their antler restriction is a disaster

Try and tell our Game Commission biologists that. They think it is a great success. I hunt in the Allegheny National Forest and you are right, the northern deer herd has been decimated.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Old Stony:

I ran across a buck last year that was left to rot. It had about a 12" rack so obviously someone had misjudged it and it went to waste. I think that sort of thing probably happens often in this neck of the woods.

Happens all the time in every neck of the woods. Trigger happy slob hunters that shoot first look later. Around here, many times it's not about antlers, it's a fawn or doe shot in the hindquarters. Folk don't want to waste the tag nor deal with gutting and butchering a deer that has little edible meat on it anymore. Bucks shot during "antlerless" only seasons are a problem too.

Antler restrictions take some time to be successful. Hard for folks used to shooting the first horn they see to pass up bucks larger than they're used to getting. These are folks that a successful hunt means coming home with something. To many, passing up smaller bucks with a chance of seeing and taking the "buck of a lifetime" is success enough. Many areas, the only way this is gonna happen is with antler restrictions. In those areas, many times, folks rarely ever saw a buck and if they did they shot it. With antler restrictions folks can now see several bucks during the season. Similar to catch and release for fishermen. Don't kill any and take them home, but have the opportunity to catch more and larger fish that otherwise would not be there. Like it or not the emphases on deer herd management lately has been in quality deer....meaning bigger bucks and fewer antlerless deer. This means lettin' small bucks go to grow and increase their numbers while culling does and fawns. Instead of seeing 40 does a day and no bucks, the idea is to see 5 does and 4 bucks a day with a good chance of seeing a shooter during the season. Is it the right approach? Depends on what kind of hunter you are. If you're a meat hunter, there's still plenty of meat animals available. If you are someone who's ego will not let you shoot an antlerless deer even when sound herd management strategies say you should....you're SOL. If you're someone where comin' home with a buck, even a small scrubhorn, makes you a deer hunter in someone else's eyes, you're SOL. If you are someone that hunts an area where trophy deer are generally non-existent because of pressure on young bucks and your dream is to shoot a trophy buck in your lifetime....you're ecstatic. Even tho most internet and bar-room hunters insist it's so, deer regs are not something most DNRs pull outta their hindside. They are developed outta what's best for the herd, the majority of hunters and the environment. This includes crop damage and car/deer collisions. Don't like 'em, go to conservation meetings and find out why they are in effect and how to get them changed. Whinin' doesn't solve a problem unless you are 3 years old.

[hogdogs]

I am about 180 degrees out on the thinkin' deployed in antler restrictions...

THe way these laws are written, they encourage poor or lesser animals to remain alive to breed... thus watering down the gene pool with less than stellar genetics for bigger deer with more rack...

Here is how this works...
Say you have a 6 point restriction... You cannot routinely take the deer with fewer...

But every deer with 6 is FAIR GAME as the shootable number of bucks is now severely reduced...

So you protect a cowhorn spike to grow to 5 1/2 breeding every doe he sees...

But a 6 pointer cannot grow past 2 1/2 years without being shot so he likely never bred...

Aging bucks accurately along with an antler restriction (even personal not legally required) might help...

The big antler deer would need to be off limits to the hunter until he is at least 4 or 5 so he can breed many does...

A cowhorn at 2 1/2 will never be a head full of horns so he shouldn't be protected and should be the one the average deer slayer is encouraged to harvest until he sees that old buck with a shrub on his head...

Unfortunately, I am sure i am not alone in the ranks of hunters who has never given a second thought to wanting to learn to age deer and I don't like carrying binos most of the time anyway...

Brent

[Cheapshooter]

Antler point restrictions are created to grow some very large trophy sized deer for the outfitters, and land owner hunt leasers to make big money off of them from the "head hunters". Also for the state to make big money from out of state permits sold a high prices to these wealthy head hunters.
They claim it is to improve the heard, and encourage taking does because smaller bucks are not legal. What they do end up doing in, addition to the profiteering, is end up with a lot of deer being wasted when jump and shoot slob hunters shoot at fur, then find that the deer isn't legal. Only to high tail it out of the area. The people who come up with these rules won't tell you, but where I hunt there have been a lot more "wounded" deer found dead, and spoiled in the woods!
Also, in Northern Missouri there has been an increase in CWD in the point restriction area! The reason, young bucks are more often effected with the disease, and are driven out of areas by the older, dominate bucks. For that reason the antler point restrictions have been suspended in certain areas.
If they really want to control the heard, and encourage taking some does to lessen overpopulation, make the trophy hunters earn their buck by first checking a doe. A lot of the head hunters don't even eat the deer they kill, but the meat can be donated through Share the Harvest programs. It won't happen though. These guys aren't likely to pay hundreds of dollars for non-resident tags, and thousands of dollars for outfitters or hunting leases to have to kill a doe before they can get another trophy on their wall!!!

[Tom Matiska]

hogdogs +100. My observation here in PA is it took a few short years to destroy the pool of bucks from the top down

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Cheapshooter:

Also, in Northern Missouri there has been an increase in CWD in the point restriction area! The reason, young bucks are more often effected with the disease, and are driven out of areas by the older, dominate bucks.

Not so. The increase in CWD is because of having higher numbers of older deer. CWD takes a minimum of 17 months to manifest itself and display symptoms in a deer after being infected. It is believed that until the symptoms appear, an animal cannot transmit the disease. Bucks carrying small eight point racks and smaller are generally 18 months old or so during the hunting season. Thus the likelihood of them displaying the disease, having the disease or transmitting the disease is considerably less than a older deer. If one wants to control for CWD, you need to shoot all mature deer and let the young ones live....just the opposite of antler restrictions. The higher the densities of deer the more chance there is to spread it...thus the shooting of excess antlerless deer.

Big bucks do not get big just because they are old. They get old because they are smart. By allowing them to live past the first one or two hunting seasons gives then a head start on becoming trophies. Whether they do or not depends on many factors, including what they learned during the previous hunting seasons. Take a two year old buck on heavily hunted public land and a 6 year old feeder fed high fence buck and put them both in the same scenario avoiding hunters.

Originally posted by hogdogs:

Here is how this works...
Say you have a 6 point restriction... You cannot routinely take the deer with fewer...

But every deer with 6 is FAIR GAME as the shootable number of bucks is now severely reduced...

So you protect a cowhorn spike to grow to 5 1/2 breeding every doe he sees...

But a 6 pointer cannot grow past 2 1/2 years without being shot so he likely never bred...

Your shootable number of bucks is only reduced the FIRST year or so of antler restriction. After that the shootable number of bucks is the same as it always was...only those shootable bucks have bigger racks. This is why there are so many complaints the first year or two of antler restrictions. Folks are still seeing the remnants of the previous unrestricted seasons.

A 5 1/2 year old cowhorn spike is never gonna be a dominate animal as what limits his antler growth also limits his physical size and potential. Rack size plays a big part of dominance, that's why the Lord gave deer antlers in the first place.The odds of him passing on his genes is no more than it was before. A large racked 6 pointer @ 2 1/2 will still be more dominate than him in a fight and will still breed more, thus passing on his dominate genes.

[tahunua001]

those kinds of laws make no sense. most people that hunt don't hunt for trophies they hunt for meat(and the added joy of hunting of course).

here our bucks rarely get that large. I got a 5x6 as my first buck and I have never seen another with as many points since. over across the river in washington they are buck only, 2 points minimum on one side and there so many deer that they are starving because the land can't handle them. the bucks are so inbred many never get larger than 2 point because of it so nobody can shoot anything in a herd of 300 deer(there are a number of herds that really are that large).

some people started trying to take things into their own hands and started thinning the herds at night and fish and game started ordering extra patrols to "stop poachers".

last I knew a poacher was someone who didn't give a damn about the populations and just wanted to get themselves some trophies. killing a few dozen malnurished and diseased does doesn't exactly fit my description of poaching.

[BuckRub]

Here in my county of Texas we do have that 13" rule and if I ever did shoot a 12" I'd also take it home. But about the last 12-14 years I could care less about any buck big or small. I take the meat and put in my freezer and does are better eating. If a wall hanger and a doe were standing together the doe better look out ! Last year I did shoot a very young 6-pointer in my yard. I had just climbed my lean to stand been there prob about 2 minutes and this 6 point showed up and I had a new crossbow and I was still in my pajamas, stand was prob 50 yards from my house anyway as young as he was he was still a good eater. He ran about 40 yards and fell over. The next day done same thing to a doe. So no I could care less about racks.

[Paul B.]

"Who knows how big of a rack a spike will ever have?"

You cn find the answer to that question in the book, "HUNTING TROPHY DEER" by the late John Wooters. It's out of print so you'll have to hunt for it.

A couple of things he brought out was you have to have a proper buck to doe population and a spike yearling will NEVER grow a big rack.

California is the prime example of a cluster mess regarding their deer population. Does and spikes are sacred cows. I lefet california in 1970 permanently. Killed my first deer theere in 1949 when I wass 11 years old. Does and spikes were totally off likits. Thet had a drawing for doe hunt and a certain club named after a mountain range always put in for the tgs and seemed get get them all. Usually had a big party on labor day and burned the tags, no does harvested.
Te last time I went through california on my way to Oregon to visit my daughter, the wife an I counted ove 150 dead deer alongside the road and had to dodge a few as the ran in front of us. Considering that this was late August the bucks should have had horns but not a single one of those deer had horns. None! Nada! What a bloody waste. A good friend of mine who lives in the southern California area says in the last three years he hasn't seen a legal deer.
California's money from tags and licenses and other sales all goes into the general fund and Fish & Game has to go begging hat in hand for any money they get. That's the way it was when I left and I doubt it's changed any.
The important thing I got from the book I mentioned was that proper buck to doe ratio. IIRC, it was 3 or 4 does per buck but I'd have to look it up tp be sure.
Paul B.

[northeast_hunter]

The antler restriction debate is always a hot topic. Where I'm from in PA, everyone hated it for the first 5 years. Now, after quite a few years, everyone is happy with it. This year on the opening day, I know 5 different people that shot quality 8 point or larger bucks before noon. A lot of the people that used to hate it, now embrace it. I'll admit, I wasn't totally for it at first, but I'm all about it now because of the size deer we are now seeing. If you're in it for meat, shoot a doe, as they're always a dime a dozen.

With that said, our area wasn't affected by some of the diseases and other things that you're mentioning in other areas.

[Cheapshooter]

Not so. The increase in CWD is because of having higher numbers of older deer.

I only have what the professionals with the Missouri Department of Conservation say to go on!

We removed the antler-point restriction
The Conservation Commission approved a regulation change in May 2012 for a special harvest provision that rescinds the antler-point restriction (four-point rule) in the CWD Containment Zone comprised of Adair, Chariton, Linn, Macon, Randolph and Sullivan counties. The repeal of the antler-point restriction will be effective September 15, 2012, the opening of archery season.

The reason for the regulation change is that management strategies, such as antler-point restrictions, protect yearling males and promote older bucks. Yearling and adult male deer have been found to exhibit CWD at much higher rates than yearling and adult females, so a reduction in the number of male deer can help limit the spread of CWD. The dispersal of yearling males from their natal or birth range in search of territory and mates is also one of the primary ways CWD spreads.

Source: http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/d...asting-disease

[FrankenMauser]

There are a few units in Idaho that have had point restrictions for quite some time (25+ years).

Presently, those areas are no longer producing legal bucks. The ENTIRE gene pool has been reduced to inferior genetic specimens that grow nothing more than fork horns or spikes.

The state's desire to improve the gene pool by "letting the younger bucks mature" has resulted in inferior genetics, sickly deer, and a unit that is no longer bringing in any revenue because no one will hunt it.

[hogdogs]

Here is where the first year or 2 theory fails...

EVERY FREAK GOOD BUCK is fair game from the moment he has a legal basket on his head...

EVERY SINGLE CULL COWHORN SPIKE gets the free pass for years to come and die an old man having bred garbage or average genes in the pool...

But had that prospect trophy been allowed to walk every season he had a legal rack, he would be a big part of a QDM herd...

So every year you have younger and younger deer being harvested as legal while ZERO or few does ever get to meet the handsome feller...

Personally since I have no use for a rack, I prefer to intentionally shoot the ones that are obviously legal but culls in the good looks department....

Brent

[Keg]

I like antler restrictions....The county I live/hunt in..went to a 1 buck only county for a number of years..now it is a 2 buck county with antler restrictions....
I live right down the road from the processing plant....For years there were lots and lots of small young bucks being killed....Now I see lots of big mature trophy bucks....We stop in from time to time during season and check out the harvest..even if we don't drop anything off....It has worked here....Are the rules perfect? Nope....But I do know the bucks harvested are more mature and more folks are harvesting does for meat(an essential for good deer management)

The rules for this county in TX are..... 1 buck with a mimum of 13 inches width and 1 buck spike....