July 27, 2013, 03:07 AM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: June 14, 2013
Posts: 81
|
antler point restrictions
I am told that the antler point restrictions in michigan are for my benefit. That i awill get bigger deer with more horns on them.
Sadly its a joke. Using the new rules, for me 4 points on one side minimum, i can only shoot does. The biggest deer ive seen in 3 years in a 5 point. Guess what, its a fork on one side. Yet the irony is that the people who voted in these laws, are the east siders who come to my area and get 2i0-30 anterless tags and obliterate anything that moves. Deer you shoot restrictions would be better. |
July 27, 2013, 04:45 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,705
|
I would be happier in my area with a point restriction on our deer. We can shoot spikes or does, but if there are more points than a spike it has to be at least 13' across the widest point of the rack. Try judging that from a distance !!
We are given a printed illustration of the horns in relation to the upright ears of an alert buck to use for comparison, but 1/2 inch could result in some stiff legal penalties. I've watched some goofy bucks that should be culled from the gene pool and had to let them go or face the law. |
July 27, 2013, 05:34 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
|
It's a sign of the times. Harvest all the doe's & fawns instead. Those who consider themselves meat hunters get their taste. The bigger bucks are few in numbers and those purposely hunting for one go home skunked for 4-5 years in a row. Those smaller bucks given a (go free/pass) by hunters because their told too. Their left to breed whatever is left. The rest of the year its Grey wolf predation cleaning out the woods. "If I were a deer living in MN or MI. I would pack my suitcase and move to Illinois or Kansas. No doubt about it!!"
S/S |
July 27, 2013, 05:48 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,705
|
I ran across a buck last year that was left to rot. It had about a 12" rack so obviously someone had misjudged it and it went to waste. I think that sort of thing probably happens often in this neck of the woods.
|
July 27, 2013, 08:06 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Posts: 619
|
This stupidity has now been applied in certain areas in New York. Minimum of three points on one side. Over the last three years, I have had a total of 23 bucks within shooting range. Had to let them all go happily on their way. Not one of them was legal to shoot.
However, on opening morning, just at legal shooting time, it sounded like world war 3 had broken out. The ony thing I can think of, is that all the legal deer were on somebody elses property. Yeah, right. To make matters worse, it is virtually impossible to get a doe tag in the area I hunt. What the hell are they trying to prove? |
July 27, 2013, 08:21 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
|
|
July 27, 2013, 08:30 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
|
I'm in my mid sixties. I've shot somewhere around150-175 deer in my life. Most were bucks (I hunt several states). I've gotten some pretty nice bucks over the years. Do you know how many sets of horns I kept? None. I like eating venison, and I like shooting bucks. I just don't hunt for the horns. So who decided that what I do isn't right and everyone should cater to the horn hunters? Why is it better to shoot big horns? My point is, who are we making these rules for? The majority? No one asked my opinion and I pay taxes and have bought a lot of hunting licenses over the last 52 years I've hunted. FYI, I quit shooting does years ago. And no, I don't shoot the first buck that comes along. There are less and less deer hunters (actually all hunters) every year and no one seems to care. Let's just keep making up a lot of useless rules for a few people and keep heading in that direction.
|
July 27, 2013, 08:37 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
We don't have point restrictions, I wish we did. If a guy needs meat there are doe tags (I don't think enough does are harvested in my area).
But if you're after bucks why not let then grow. Spikes and forked horns are nothing but meat deer, might as well thin out some does. But I wouldn't like rules that require me to have calibrated eyes. They do that in many places in Alaska on moose, I'm not sure I can tell 60 inches from 58 or 59 at 300 yards. I can see that would lead to a lot of dead critters going to waste in the field.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
July 27, 2013, 09:02 AM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: SW PA
Posts: 80
|
We've had them for years here in Pennsylvania. Some areas are 4 pts on one side, others are 3. The biologists claim this is good for the herd cause it lets the younger buck survive to breed. I tend to disagree. My logic is that you would want the huge buck saved to pass on their genes. Who knows how big of a rack a spike will ever have? They would never be able to get hunters to pass up a trophy so they went with the latter plan.
Some love it, some hate it. The archers tend to love it cause they have more opportunity to take them when they are in the rut and "dumb". Many rifle hunters in the north woods hate it because it makes it a lot harder to fill your tag. If you are not a trophy hunter and just want the meat, it sucks. I have passed up on buck that looked legal but I was not quite sure had a brow tine. Last edited by palabman; July 27, 2013 at 11:39 AM. |
July 27, 2013, 09:08 AM | #10 | |
Member
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: SW PA
Posts: 80
|
Quote:
|
|
July 27, 2013, 10:06 AM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,736
|
Quote:
|
|
July 27, 2013, 11:39 AM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: SW PA
Posts: 80
|
Quote:
|
|
July 27, 2013, 11:51 AM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
Happens all the time in every neck of the woods. Trigger happy slob hunters that shoot first look later. Around here, many times it's not about antlers, it's a fawn or doe shot in the hindquarters. Folk don't want to waste the tag nor deal with gutting and butchering a deer that has little edible meat on it anymore. Bucks shot during "antlerless" only seasons are a problem too. Antler restrictions take some time to be successful. Hard for folks used to shooting the first horn they see to pass up bucks larger than they're used to getting. These are folks that a successful hunt means coming home with something. To many, passing up smaller bucks with a chance of seeing and taking the "buck of a lifetime" is success enough. Many areas, the only way this is gonna happen is with antler restrictions. In those areas, many times, folks rarely ever saw a buck and if they did they shot it. With antler restrictions folks can now see several bucks during the season. Similar to catch and release for fishermen. Don't kill any and take them home, but have the opportunity to catch more and larger fish that otherwise would not be there. Like it or not the emphases on deer herd management lately has been in quality deer....meaning bigger bucks and fewer antlerless deer. This means lettin' small bucks go to grow and increase their numbers while culling does and fawns. Instead of seeing 40 does a day and no bucks, the idea is to see 5 does and 4 bucks a day with a good chance of seeing a shooter during the season. Is it the right approach? Depends on what kind of hunter you are. If you're a meat hunter, there's still plenty of meat animals available. If you are someone who's ego will not let you shoot an antlerless deer even when sound herd management strategies say you should....you're SOL. If you're someone where comin' home with a buck, even a small scrubhorn, makes you a deer hunter in someone else's eyes, you're SOL. If you are someone that hunts an area where trophy deer are generally non-existent because of pressure on young bucks and your dream is to shoot a trophy buck in your lifetime....you're ecstatic. Even tho most internet and bar-room hunters insist it's so, deer regs are not something most DNRs pull outta their hindside. They are developed outta what's best for the herd, the majority of hunters and the environment. This includes crop damage and car/deer collisions. Don't like 'em, go to conservation meetings and find out why they are in effect and how to get them changed. Whinin' doesn't solve a problem unless you are 3 years old. |
|
July 27, 2013, 12:42 PM | #14 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
I am about 180 degrees out on the thinkin' deployed in antler restrictions...
THe way these laws are written, they encourage poor or lesser animals to remain alive to breed... thus watering down the gene pool with less than stellar genetics for bigger deer with more rack... Here is how this works... Say you have a 6 point restriction... You cannot routinely take the deer with fewer... But every deer with 6 is FAIR GAME as the shootable number of bucks is now severely reduced... So you protect a cowhorn spike to grow to 5 1/2 breeding every doe he sees... But a 6 pointer cannot grow past 2 1/2 years without being shot so he likely never bred... Aging bucks accurately along with an antler restriction (even personal not legally required) might help... The big antler deer would need to be off limits to the hunter until he is at least 4 or 5 so he can breed many does... A cowhorn at 2 1/2 will never be a head full of horns so he shouldn't be protected and should be the one the average deer slayer is encouraged to harvest until he sees that old buck with a shrub on his head... Unfortunately, I am sure i am not alone in the ranks of hunters who has never given a second thought to wanting to learn to age deer and I don't like carrying binos most of the time anyway... Brent |
July 27, 2013, 01:06 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
Antler point restrictions are created to grow some very large trophy sized deer for the outfitters, and land owner hunt leasers to make big money off of them from the "head hunters". Also for the state to make big money from out of state permits sold a high prices to these wealthy head hunters.
They claim it is to improve the heard, and encourage taking does because smaller bucks are not legal. What they do end up doing in, addition to the profiteering, is end up with a lot of deer being wasted when jump and shoot slob hunters shoot at fur, then find that the deer isn't legal. Only to high tail it out of the area. The people who come up with these rules won't tell you, but where I hunt there have been a lot more "wounded" deer found dead, and spoiled in the woods! Also, in Northern Missouri there has been an increase in CWD in the point restriction area! The reason, young bucks are more often effected with the disease, and are driven out of areas by the older, dominate bucks. For that reason the antler point restrictions have been suspended in certain areas. If they really want to control the heard, and encourage taking some does to lessen overpopulation, make the trophy hunters earn their buck by first checking a doe. A lot of the head hunters don't even eat the deer they kill, but the meat can be donated through Share the Harvest programs. It won't happen though. These guys aren't likely to pay hundreds of dollars for non-resident tags, and thousands of dollars for outfitters or hunting leases to have to kill a doe before they can get another trophy on their wall!!!
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
July 27, 2013, 01:31 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 12, 2000
Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa
Posts: 1,029
|
hogdogs +100. My observation here in PA is it took a few short years to destroy the pool of bucks from the top down
__________________
A gun is like a parachute... when you need one you usually need it pretty bad... |
July 27, 2013, 01:53 PM | #17 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,342
|
Quote:
Not so. The increase in CWD is because of having higher numbers of older deer. CWD takes a minimum of 17 months to manifest itself and display symptoms in a deer after being infected. It is believed that until the symptoms appear, an animal cannot transmit the disease. Bucks carrying small eight point racks and smaller are generally 18 months old or so during the hunting season. Thus the likelihood of them displaying the disease, having the disease or transmitting the disease is considerably less than a older deer. If one wants to control for CWD, you need to shoot all mature deer and let the young ones live....just the opposite of antler restrictions. The higher the densities of deer the more chance there is to spread it...thus the shooting of excess antlerless deer. Big bucks do not get big just because they are old. They get old because they are smart. By allowing them to live past the first one or two hunting seasons gives then a head start on becoming trophies. Whether they do or not depends on many factors, including what they learned during the previous hunting seasons. Take a two year old buck on heavily hunted public land and a 6 year old feeder fed high fence buck and put them both in the same scenario avoiding hunters. Quote:
Your shootable number of bucks is only reduced the FIRST year or so of antler restriction. After that the shootable number of bucks is the same as it always was...only those shootable bucks have bigger racks. This is why there are so many complaints the first year or two of antler restrictions. Folks are still seeing the remnants of the previous unrestricted seasons. A 5 1/2 year old cowhorn spike is never gonna be a dominate animal as what limits his antler growth also limits his physical size and potential. Rack size plays a big part of dominance, that's why the Lord gave deer antlers in the first place.The odds of him passing on his genes is no more than it was before. A large racked 6 pointer @ 2 1/2 will still be more dominate than him in a fight and will still breed more, thus passing on his dominate genes. |
||
July 27, 2013, 02:37 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
|
those kinds of laws make no sense. most people that hunt don't hunt for trophies they hunt for meat(and the added joy of hunting of course).
here our bucks rarely get that large. I got a 5x6 as my first buck and I have never seen another with as many points since. over across the river in washington they are buck only, 2 points minimum on one side and there so many deer that they are starving because the land can't handle them. the bucks are so inbred many never get larger than 2 point because of it so nobody can shoot anything in a herd of 300 deer(there are a number of herds that really are that large). some people started trying to take things into their own hands and started thinning the herds at night and fish and game started ordering extra patrols to "stop poachers". last I knew a poacher was someone who didn't give a damn about the populations and just wanted to get themselves some trophies. killing a few dozen malnurished and diseased does doesn't exactly fit my description of poaching.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin |
July 27, 2013, 03:14 PM | #19 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,046
|
Here in my county of Texas we do have that 13" rule and if I ever did shoot a 12" I'd also take it home. But about the last 12-14 years I could care less about any buck big or small. I take the meat and put in my freezer and does are better eating. If a wall hanger and a doe were standing together the doe better look out ! Last year I did shoot a very young 6-pointer in my yard. I had just climbed my lean to stand been there prob about 2 minutes and this 6 point showed up and I had a new crossbow and I was still in my pajamas, stand was prob 50 yards from my house anyway as young as he was he was still a good eater. He ran about 40 yards and fell over. The next day done same thing to a doe. So no I could care less about racks.
|
July 27, 2013, 03:30 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,800
|
"Who knows how big of a rack a spike will ever have?"
You cn find the answer to that question in the book, "HUNTING TROPHY DEER" by the late John Wooters. It's out of print so you'll have to hunt for it. A couple of things he brought out was you have to have a proper buck to doe population and a spike yearling will NEVER grow a big rack. California is the prime example of a cluster mess regarding their deer population. Does and spikes are sacred cows. I lefet california in 1970 permanently. Killed my first deer theere in 1949 when I wass 11 years old. Does and spikes were totally off likits. Thet had a drawing for doe hunt and a certain club named after a mountain range always put in for the tgs and seemed get get them all. Usually had a big party on labor day and burned the tags, no does harvested. Te last time I went through california on my way to Oregon to visit my daughter, the wife an I counted ove 150 dead deer alongside the road and had to dodge a few as the ran in front of us. Considering that this was late August the bucks should have had horns but not a single one of those deer had horns. None! Nada! What a bloody waste. A good friend of mine who lives in the southern California area says in the last three years he hasn't seen a legal deer. California's money from tags and licenses and other sales all goes into the general fund and Fish & Game has to go begging hat in hand for any money they get. That's the way it was when I left and I doubt it's changed any. The important thing I got from the book I mentioned was that proper buck to doe ratio. IIRC, it was 3 or 4 does per buck but I'd have to look it up tp be sure. Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION! |
July 27, 2013, 04:30 PM | #21 |
Junior Member
Join Date: July 23, 2013
Posts: 2
|
The antler restriction debate is always a hot topic. Where I'm from in PA, everyone hated it for the first 5 years. Now, after quite a few years, everyone is happy with it. This year on the opening day, I know 5 different people that shot quality 8 point or larger bucks before noon. A lot of the people that used to hate it, now embrace it. I'll admit, I wasn't totally for it at first, but I'm all about it now because of the size deer we are now seeing. If you're in it for meat, shoot a doe, as they're always a dime a dozen.
With that said, our area wasn't affected by some of the diseases and other things that you're mentioning in other areas. |
July 27, 2013, 10:47 PM | #22 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 8,306
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING! |
||
July 28, 2013, 12:02 AM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,423
|
There are a few units in Idaho that have had point restrictions for quite some time (25+ years).
Presently, those areas are no longer producing legal bucks. The ENTIRE gene pool has been reduced to inferior genetic specimens that grow nothing more than fork horns or spikes. The state's desire to improve the gene pool by "letting the younger bucks mature" has resulted in inferior genetics, sickly deer, and a unit that is no longer bringing in any revenue because no one will hunt it.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
July 28, 2013, 12:44 AM | #24 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Here is where the first year or 2 theory fails...
EVERY FREAK GOOD BUCK is fair game from the moment he has a legal basket on his head... EVERY SINGLE CULL COWHORN SPIKE gets the free pass for years to come and die an old man having bred garbage or average genes in the pool... But had that prospect trophy been allowed to walk every season he had a legal rack, he would be a big part of a QDM herd... So every year you have younger and younger deer being harvested as legal while ZERO or few does ever get to meet the handsome feller... Personally since I have no use for a rack, I prefer to intentionally shoot the ones that are obviously legal but culls in the good looks department.... Brent |
July 28, 2013, 02:33 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
I like antler restrictions....The county I live/hunt in..went to a 1 buck only county for a number of years..now it is a 2 buck county with antler restrictions....
I live right down the road from the processing plant....For years there were lots and lots of small young bucks being killed....Now I see lots of big mature trophy bucks....We stop in from time to time during season and check out the harvest..even if we don't drop anything off....It has worked here....Are the rules perfect? Nope....But I do know the bucks harvested are more mature and more folks are harvesting does for meat(an essential for good deer management) The rules for this county in TX are..... 1 buck with a mimum of 13 inches width and 1 buck spike....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... Last edited by Keg; July 28, 2013 at 03:01 AM. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|