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Old November 23, 2008, 10:02 PM   #1
eganx
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excessive leadin in barrel with cast bullets

I just started reloading and went to shoot my first batch of reloads. I was shooting 45 acp out of a 1911. 200 grain round nosed cast bullet with 5.2 grains of HP-38. I checked the OD of the cast bullets and all were .452 or .453. after shooting 100 rounds the barrel was caked, I cleaned it for an hour and gave up. I'm going to soak it and try a sonic cleaner. why is there so much leading? could it have to do with the crimp, where the crip is and how much? I'm using a RCBS seater/crimp die. any insight is greatly appreciated. is there anything I can do differently to cut down on leading? if this is the case with shooting cast bullets I'll quickly be changing to FMJ and suffer the cost. thanks - Egan
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Old November 23, 2008, 10:29 PM   #2
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eganx

The problem you are experiencing is due to bullets that are waaaaaay too soft for the application.

The 1911 .45 has very shallow rifling for use with jacketed bullets. If you wish to use lead bullets, you need "HARD CAST" bullets to prevent leading, and real accuracy. Cheap, soft cast bullets will just not get the job done.

HARD CAST is not "CHEAP" due to the metals/alloys used to make them hard, but they are much cheaper than jacketed.


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Old November 23, 2008, 10:37 PM   #3
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Listen to Mike. He knows what he's talking about.

To get the lead you have out of your barrel try a Lewis (now Hoppes) Lead remover. It's a brass screen you drag through the barrel on a rubber plug. I've also had good success with a bit of copper scouring pad wrapped around a bronze brush pushed back and forth several times through a dry barrel.

Get better bullets to enjoy more shooting and less cleaning.
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Old November 23, 2008, 11:39 PM   #4
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I'm just not entirely sure the bullets are too soft. they are cast from wheel weights....which seems to be what most people do. anyway, what would be a good cast bullet I could find online? what have ya'll had good experience with?
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Old November 23, 2008, 11:51 PM   #5
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Lube can also affect amount of leading from cast bullets. What lube was used on the bullets you shot? Copper fouling left behind from jacketed bullets tends to increase leading from cast bullets. I prefer to clean the barrel THOROUGHLY before switching from jacketed bullets to cast bullets or vice versa. For a good lead bullet, try some 200 gr H&G #68 style hard cast lead bullets sized to .451 or .452". Both sizes give excellent results for me in my Kimber and Wilson 1911's. This is a common .45 ACP bullet and most commercial casters sell a version of this bullet. Seat them so that about 1/32" of the shoulder protrudes out of the case (giving 1.240-1.250 OAL) and taper crimp to .469"-.471" over 5.1 gr Win 231.
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Old November 24, 2008, 12:18 AM   #6
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Wheel weight metal has a Brinnel hardness of around 10-12 BHN. You need a bullet with a BHN number of around 22, to be able to hold the shallow rifling of a .45 ACP bbl. Bullets softer than this tend to skid in the rifling, causing the leading you are experiencing.
Also, a common factor among commercial bullet casters is the beveled base design. They tend to let enough hot gas up around the base of the bullet to the sides, where it starts melting away at the sides, leaving excess lead in the bbl.
I agree on the point of using the H&G #68 200 gr. SWC. That is an excellent bullet design, and I've fired thousands upon thousands of them without any problems.

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Old November 24, 2008, 12:39 AM   #7
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I soft cast my 45 bullets. If you want to increase the hardness, try water dropping the bullets. IIRC I get about 20 Brinell by water dropping, and about 12 if I air cool them. I have no problems with leading. I don't get good accuracy with water dropped 45 bullets. I do with higher pressure cartridges like the 9x19 and 40 S&W.

What are you using for lube? I tumble lube my cast bullets with a mix of Lee Alox and Johnson Paste Wax with superb results.

Looking at the Hodgdon reloading website, your loads are in the same pressure range as my 230 grain Titegroup loads. My cast bullets measure more in the .454" range IIRC. So that is a factor as well.
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Old November 24, 2008, 02:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eganx
anyway, what would be a good cast bullet I could find online? what have ya'll had good experience with?
The first guy that responded sells great cast bullets from everything I hear.

Mastercastbullets.com

Lesser priced bullets can be found, but I suggest you start with Mike's bullet and try to save money (maybe 2 cents a round?) later.
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Old November 24, 2008, 03:33 AM   #9
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I'll be the voice of dissent, I guess. Leading can occur from bullets being too hard if they are not sized large enough. That is due to failure to obturate the bore under the available pressure, which, in the .45 ACP isn't all that high. Too soft will cause a problem, too, but I don't think wheel weights should be too soft. Keep in mind that Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum using lead tin alloys that were no harder than your unquenched wheel weights. He had deeper rifling, but he was also driving them faster, so I doubt that's the major part of your problem. It is more likely you are seating the bullets too deeply for the length of your throat and are getting some gas blowby while the bullet is on its way there. Blowby is ruinous to cast bullets bases. Try seating to headspace on the bullets to insure minimum blowby. See the third imalge from the left, below.



Use a good lube, as suggested earlier. I like Lee Liquid alox. Squirt some onto the bullets in an old cottage cheese tub or a small plastic bucket and roll them around to distribute it, per the directions. Set them base-down on wax paper. Let them dry a couple of hours, or until just tacky. At that point, use a salt shaker filled with motor mica to dust them and put them back in the tub and roll them some more. Shake more motor mica on if you need to. Then set them back on the wax paper to dry for a couple of days. This will make them much easier to handle as well as adding lubrication.

When you clean, don't leave any lead behind, or the next round will build on it. Sharp Shoot-R (makers of Wipe Out) now make an actual lead solvent called No Lead. I would use that after any mechanical means are done. You can also buy and Outers Foul Out, which removes it electrolytically. Father Frog's site has a link to a home built one, too.
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Old November 24, 2008, 09:44 AM   #10
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What kind of gun and is it new? It seems to me that new barrels lead quicker than barrels that have some bullets down the bore.

Have you slugged your bore? I think you'd sure want to be at least .001" larger than bore diameter to help reduce leading.

I've always had a bit of "streaking" with lead bullets in my Springfield 1911 45's but, after several thousand rounds through each pistol, it's not much of a problem anymore. Around 4 or 5 passes through the bore with a brass brush wrapped with "Chore Boy" copper scrubbing pads and the bores are slick as a whistle. I think more rounds down range= smoother bores. The Chore Boy, used dry, would be something for you to try but it sounds like it will take a lot more time to get your barrel slicked up.

Your load isn't excessive. I use 5.0 gr of W231 (same powder you're using, different name) with 200 SWC cast with wheel weight lead, lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. You might try putting a coat of LLA on the lead bullets you are using and see if that helps.

You might check in at: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2 for more info on cast bullets.

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Old November 24, 2008, 11:21 AM   #11
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I've been shooting cast bullets in my Gold Cup in bullsye matches and everything else for about 30 years.

Soft lead isnt the problem, I use soft lead, mostly range lead. I believe unless you have a really poopy barrel, its the lube. I use to make my own but now I use the Lee stuff and I have very little leading problems even in my mag. pistols, or my rifles.

Try Lee lube, its cheap and easy to use.

As for cleaning the bore, I dont use many jacked bullets except in EIC matches where its required. I dont clean my barrel between the 2700 match and the EIC match. I found over the years after thirty rounds of jacketed 230 RN, there is zero lead.

Before people start screaming about presure, I dont load hot. Actually my loads are fairly mild. Dont take a lot of velocity to punch a hole through paper. Like 3.8 grns of Bullseye pushing the 230 RN Cast bullet. I use the same powder charge with the 230 RN jacketd bullets.
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Old November 24, 2008, 11:03 PM   #12
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eganix

Enough of this.

Send me your shipping address to [email protected], I will send you some free .45 200 grain SWC bullets and you can report the results to the forum.

I will also tell you how to chemically clean your barrel if necessary.


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Old November 25, 2008, 06:53 PM   #13
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"I'm just not entirely sure the bullets are too soft. they are cast from wheel weights....which seems to be what most people do."

The NRA says straight wheel weights is a poor cast bullet aloy. They have a high antimony content which makes it "hard" but they have low tin content. They say that without tin, the antimony will seperate and solidify first as the alloy cools, becoming isolatedhard crystals imbedded in an almost pure lead matrix. The lead works as if the bullet were pure lead and will coat a bore fast. I've found that to be true.

Bottom line, add a bit of tin to your wheel weights, 4-5% maybe, for good bullets that cast well and won't lead your bore so easily.
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Old November 25, 2008, 08:16 PM   #14
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Take a baggie, put 50-75 bullets in, take some Lee Alox spread it on the bullets, close the bag and nead it, stand the bullets up on wax paper over night--your leading problems will be over.
I have used Mikes bullets and they are good. I shoot 600-800 cast bullets a month in 9mm,357 mag,38 SPL. and 38 Super and no leading, no matter what supplier I use.
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Old November 25, 2008, 09:22 PM   #15
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Eganx,
I would recommend accepting Mike's generous offer (mastercast.com), load the bullets as suggested in post #5 above, clean your barrel thoroughly, and go shooting. My guess is you will be very pleased and will place a follow-up order with Mike for more of his fine cast bullets. Cast bullets can be a little finicky sometimes but when good bullets are loaded properly and shot thru clean pistol barrels, the results can be outstanding. My pistols (.45 ACP and .44 Mag) only contain jacketed bullets when being carried for self defense purposes and then just to prevent possible legal complications.
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Old November 25, 2008, 10:31 PM   #16
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I respectfully disagree, about the hard cast or wheel weights not being hard enough senario.

Just as in everything else you have to find the proper criterea for your peticular gun. Just as in developing accuracy loads, same applies to shooting lead. It ain't as simple as plug'n play.

Assuming that you have a seasoned and clean bbl. Have you slugged your bore as previously mentioned. Selected a bullet diameter of .001-.002 over.

Did you cast these boolits? If not, are they really straight WW's?

I'm not familiar with HP-38 but try a less faster buring powder.

FPS, I assume you're keeping it under 1k fps. 7-800 maybe?

What about your lube? What are you using?

Bullet, what type? Plain base I would suggest.

When I first started in casting I too had some leading issues but I stayed with it. No way was I paying good money for cast bullets -but each to his own, everyone has circumstances. My equipment has and is paying for itself. If you don't have the time or desire to roll you own, then you have no choice but to order commercial.

In pistol I cast for 9mm Luger, 9mm Mak, 38 spl, 44mag and 45 acp. So don't imply that WW's are too this or that. FWIW I have a smoke'n 44mag hunting load too. All, with zero leading.

As mentioned above, the lead bullet HAS to be soft enough to obturate. If the bullent doesn't seal, then you get blowby which the gases pass the bullet.......

Egan, I don't know your circumstances as far as components, equipment, experience and all but I'll offer my help if you're up to it. Just email me and we can chat or talk, whatever.

[Bragg]It costs me less than five cents to load one round of 45acp[/brag]
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Old November 25, 2008, 11:11 PM   #17
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I don't shoot lead bullets so I don't have a dog in the fight but there is a nice read on relative hardness properties, HERE. Whether the information is accurate or not, I have no idea but it seems plausible that hardness would best be tailored to the load...perhaps not but regardless, I thought it was an interesting, if not informative, read. I do suspect most of the guys that have been in the cast business a number of years (dealing with every barrel type imaginable) have an entirely different perspective on base requirements opposed to an individual shooter only knowing what works in their personal guns.
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Old November 26, 2008, 12:30 AM   #18
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Another useful site: http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm
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Old November 26, 2008, 01:24 AM   #19
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Bboomer

Just for grins, let me run something by you for your consideration.

Let us say that we have a revolver in .45 caliber that has a barrel that slugs .451. The chamber throats/ball end seats slug .452.

If we feed that revolver hard cast bullets of .452 diameter, why in heavens name would we need the bullet to "obturate" or "slug up" on firing? The .452 diameter bullets will swage down to a very tight fit in the bore of the revolver and shoot with real accuracy.

The only reason for obturation on firing of cast bullets that I am aware of, is if you have a bigger hole to fill than you should have, if the gun was manufactured to proper specifications.(chamber throats, ball end seats, bore diameter, etc.)

I have read that ALL cast bullets must be soft enough to obturate.....I am still wondering why, if they fill the "holes" tightly when sized and lubricated to proper diameter. That has not been my experience here in over 40 years of casting and shooting cast bullets.

To put it another way, why should bullets need to obturate(unless they were made too small in diameter to start with for a gun manufactured to proper spec) if they are made large enough in diameter originally to work well?



Please get back to me on this when time permits. I just do not get it. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Thanks.


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Old November 26, 2008, 04:07 AM   #20
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The problem could be as simple as not enough bell on the case.
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Old November 26, 2008, 09:20 AM   #21
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"I respectfully disagree, about the hard cast or wheel weights not being hard enough senario."

Think you may have missed the point about wheel weights.

The issue isn't if WW bullets are "hard" enough, it is that the molten alloy seperates during cooling and the antimony forms hard crystals traped in the lead. That pure, soft lead between the hard crystals smears on the bore. A really good lube like Alox (Lee's lube) helps but can't always stop it. The addition of a bit of tin will keep the antimony in solution with the lead, as a true alloy, during cooling.

Concerns of obturation do apply to light bullets and light charges if the bullet is undersized to begin with. But, heavy bullets and heavy charges will obturate even if the undersize bullets are copper jacketed, the acceleration will do it anyway.

Years ago, when my .44 was still new and I was new to casting, I dug some of my farrly hard SWC-GC bullets out of the old sawdust pile I used as a back stop. When I finally found them they looked more like wadcutters because the SWC nose had set back so far! After that, I din't worry much about obturation of any cast slugs.

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Old November 26, 2008, 09:45 AM   #22
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Cast bullets do not have to be hard to work well in a 45, but they do need to fit properly. I've shot thousands of them over the years and do not have a problem with leading. All have been home cast with mostly WWs or range scrap in many shapes and sizes. My personal preference for lube is something other than LLA. I make my own Felix lube. I've also used 50/50 Sta-Lub (lithium based moly grease) and bees wax, and several commercial lubes. I like Felix lube best.

Years ago I shot several thousand Hornady dry lube 230 RN. No issues with them either, and they were soft. Some folks recently have had success with tumble lubing in Johnson Paste Wax.

btw, I've been shooting home cast since the early 70s.
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Old November 26, 2008, 10:53 AM   #23
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The obturation issue comes up repeatedly and I have wondered about it for a long time myself. I have no comprehensive explanation, but there is empirical evidence that it matters. First, it seems to me to be correct that a large enough cast bullet doesn't need to obturate the bore, but how large that is varies with the gun? Marshall Stanton at Beartooth Bullets did some work to show accuracy in his revolvers peaked with his very hard cast bullets at more like 0.002" over groove diameter than the usual 0.001" over (see Marshall's technical book for a description of the testing). His bullets are BHN 20+. I have found the same thing is true in my Marlin 1895. It likes the bigger bullets in its not-so-tight chamber, regardless of the fact the groove diameter of its bore is just about 0.458" on the money. Hard 0.460's shoot tighter groups from it than hard 0.459's do (these are with my own cast bullets that are from NEI molds with flat meplats at 350 and 430 grains; the alloy is roughly 5% antimony 3% tin, 0.2% silver, and 0.2% arsenic, water hardened). 0.461's don't do quite as well. Soft 0.459's, however, do as well as the hard 0.460's, except I just can't drive them as fast.

I can't offer a comprehensive explanation for the above observations. My best guess is the gas blowby around the bullet just after the brass lets go and before the bullet bearing surface gets into the throat is the source of the problem. Certainly we know uniforming revolver chamber throats is a big boon to accuracy, suggesting that whatever happens in that period affects the bullets. Having put revolver throats to maximum it is also pretty consistently reported a bullet within half a thousandth of that throat diameter usually shoots best.

My conjecture is that a softer bullet can expand to follow the inside of the case as it expands under pressure, and to some degree it can even fill a throat. This is at well below peak pressure, which doesn't occur until the bullet is an inch or so into its forward movement. It is the ability to be upset at that lower initial pressure while it is still in the case that seems to help avoid the gas cutting that hurts accuracy.

One reason I think it is gas cutting that is the source of the issue is that jacketed bullets don't have this problem. I think the gas must, in the short period of bullet jump to the throat, bother the bullet's bearing surfaces not only to contribute to leading, but in some way that contributes to the bullet exiting the muzzle without good base uniformity? Another reason to think this is so is that if you use poly wads (P-wads; discs of low density polyethylene) under the bullet bases, all leading seems to stop dead. These discs fit the cases tightly and themselves obturate the bore very easily, possibly so the bullet doesn't have to? They are unlike a copper gas check in that regard.

The illustration I posted above shows, third from left, a 1911 barrel with the bullet seated out far enough so the round is headspacing on the bullet instead of on the case shoulder. With swaged cast bullets that took 40% off the size of the groups my fitted Gold Cup was shooting with the same bullets loaded to standard dimensions and seating depth. It also helps with cast bullet accuracy. It makes no difference that I can see with jacketed bullets.

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Old November 28, 2008, 06:09 PM   #24
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I want to thank Unclenick! I started using hardcast lead in my acp and was leading up the barrel badly at the breach end. Unclenick posted the headspace pictures and I checked mine and had too much space... Seated this last batch out to where he recommended and NO LEADING! Thanks Nick - I owe you one!
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