Meth Lab article

[locknid]

The internet def helps meth makers to obtain ingrediants they need in mass quantities. Depending on state laws, even international laws if ordering from another country can make it easy to mass order ephedrine, and possibly other materials to make meth. That is one of the reasons it is so popular because it can easily and cheaply be made, making it cheaper to obtain for the customers. Comparing Crack Cocaine price vs the price of meth, with meth you can get more and it will last longer then then equivalent amount of crack. It sounds kinda messed up but crack cocaine, although still popular, has decreased in my opinion since meth started getting popular again. For every 10 people i find with meth I will maybe find possibly one with a crack pipe.

As for this whole marijuana being a gateway drug, like another poster said this is just anti-drug propaganda. For the most part kids drink alcohol first whether it be over at friends house or dipping into the parent's stock. Should alcohol be considered a gateway drug because a lot of people will eventually try or use other drugs? what about tabacco, a lot of people who smoke started when they were too young to legally buy them, is that a gateway drug. No smart person has ever said marijuana, or any drug for that matter is perfectly safe, there are side effects to everything on this planet. The thing is that it is not physically addicting, very difficult to get mentally addicted, has pretty much a 0% chance of overdose, most marijuana users still run about their normal lives with no problem holding normal jobs, having families, etc. Just like any other drug there are varying amounts of usage from once a month to mutiple times daily, with millions of people just in the US smoking pot. Yes there are effects on the lungs but so does tobacco which is legal. Thousands of people die each year because of DUI, incidents that were caused by the ingestion of alcohol, overdose, etc. Underage drinking is a chronic problem in the U.S. and thousands of others die from diseases caused by alcoholism, its very addictive. Our prisons are filling with people arrested for possession of marijuana, or even small amounts of other drugs, where possession was the sole crime they were arrested for. at an average of $27,000 dollars a year per prisoner put on tax payers, I will try anything to lower that. That is more then a lot of people in the US make per year.

It is expected that people who smoke marijuana, which is the most widely used illegal drug by FARRRRRRRR, will try and possibly use other drugs.

From the 2004 National Household Survey on Drug Use and Health 110 million people were asked about drug use. out of that total 14.5% of 12-17yr olds stated they used marijuana in the last year, 27.8% for 18-25yr olds, and 7% of 26 and older. compare this to 1.6% of 12-17yr olds, 6.6% of 18-25yr olds, and 1.7% for 26 and over for cocaine usage in the last year.

http://www.rand.org/news/press.02/gateway.html
http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/gateway.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_br...10/index1.html
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/study...rug-12116.html
http://www.reason.com/news/show/33365.html

There are tons of different studies and views on the "gateway theory" and most I found to support the gateway theory in total were filled with other propaganda and myths.

[Seamus]

It would be nice if some folks could learn the difference between:
getting high and getting happy
going to sleep and passing out
and
waking up and coming to.
I've -unfortunately- seen a few shooters at different ranges that I suspect were alcohol impaired. I don't even want to think about the combination of meth and firearms.

[vostracker]

As a former Narcotics Agent who had to retire due to injuries sustained in a meth lab and being from Oklahoma where we passed the 1st Pseudo law prohibiting the sale of Pseudo over the counter, I'd like to see a article on the future problems with meth out of Mexico and related health problems being found with investigators.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Hell, yes... I hear those Mexican "Superlabs" are what we really should be worrying about right now. How about a few cross-border "incursions" like the Israelis do when they have problems with Palistine and Lebanon?

A few well-targeted airstrikes... a quick dual-envelopment maneuver with an armored division of two... problem solved.

Thanks for doing the dirty deeds that need to be done, vos.

You may want to have your buddies that are still active archive blood samples for future analysis and use in litigation. It would probably go a long way toward proving that your working conditions were "unreasonably dangerous". Hell, you may win a civil suit against some narcotraficantes or something...

[22-rimfire]

Meth labs; Terrible thing. I found one on monday afternoon. Called DEA and then local police. Fun evening.

People talk about the odor. This one smelled different and I have not identified just what was causing the odor yet. Most smell about the same (iodine). This one had a (don't laugh) cherry cough syrup odor. The odor was so strong, that it has to be something related to the lab. Anyone know anything with regard to this smell?

[vostracker]

Not sure what that smell would be. Were they trying to distill ephedrine from some brand of cough syrup? I have smelled lithium batteries that were soaking, that kind of smelled different, but not sure if it was like cherry cough syrup. In my former AO, I'm used to smelling ether and anhydrous ammonia from "anny labs". Not that amy RedP labs. You never forget how a lab smells once you smell one. Has your state implimented a pseudo law against the sale of pseudo over the counter?

[22-rimfire]

Tennessee has implemented an ephedrine law in the last year or so (limiting purchases, signing for the medicine etc.). The number of labs have decreased. The lab I found was stashed behind a wall and not active. There were a number of gallon bottles of red liquid along with the usual coffee filters, tubing, beakers, coleman fuel, etc. Police told me that this guy was stealing liquid Red-P from rail cars. I don't know why that would smell like cherry although it looks "cherry". The liquid did not appear to be layered although some of the liquid was stored in white plastic jugs and I did not peak in.

[vostracker]

Red phosphorus is really bad stuff!! Be carefull. When its heated to a certain point it turns into Phosgene gas which is deadly.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Meth Labs are a result of drug prohibition.

End the prohibition, end the growth of meth.

[Crosshair]

Meth Labs are a result of drug prohibition.

End the prohibition, end the growth of meth.

And if you end prohibition, fewer people will die and become addicted to meth as there are many "safer" alternatives to meth.

Use the tax revenue to fund rehab to people who want it, leave the people who are able to use responsibly alone, and put those who commit crime to get their fix in jail.

[Mossy00]

The war on drugs is a joke. You take non-violent "criminals" and put them in prison for 5 years on a drug charge and they come out hardened criminals, much more dangerous than they were before.

[Hans]

Meth is easily the most devastating drug I have ever seen. I personally have seen the effects on someone I know, and you cannot imagine what it is like to literally watch somebody waste away to nothing. And I mean nothing. The person was like a hollow shell when they died. Saddest thing I have ever seen.

There have been several meth lab busts in the town that I grew up in, and the people were stealing from farmers' annhydrous ammonia tanks. That stuff is plain nasty. I can't imagine doing any kind of drug made from that stuff.

[vostracker]

WAR ON DRUGS IS A JOKE??? What a load of BULL****!!! MOSSY00, your evidently not law enforcement. A majority of crimes are based on drugs and/or alcohol. Murder, rape, robbery, assault and property crimes can be usually associated with drug or alcohol use. Drug dealers use deadly force, assaults and intimidation to protect their money and drugs. Users will do what ever to obtain their drug of choice. Burglary, home invasion and other such crimes are violent. The more addicted they are, the more dangerous they are. WAR ON DRUGS A JOKE!!! I wish you could stand face to face with the widow of the Oklahoma State Trooper who was killed by a meth "tweaker" on Christman Eve and tell her and his children that the drug war is a JOKE!! Or tell the infant crawling on the floor with syringes and needles everywhere who hasnt been fed in days or had the diaper changed because their parents are too strung out and only concerned with their next fix that its a JOKE. Tell it to the offiecers who have to face the meth paranoid tweaker who hasnt been asleep for the last 7-10 days straight and is halucinating with a gun, knife in his hand and the pit bull guarding his rotten hovel of a home that it a JOKE. I'd like you to ride along with a law enforcemnt officer in your area and see what goes on outside the comfort of your home. Then ask him the same question about the war on drugs being a joke. If he's nice, maybe he wont toss you out in a drug infested neighborhood to be raped, assaulted or murdered by the so called non-violent drug offender.
In the last 24 years I have put my butt on the line to protect individual like you so that you are not effected. In that time I put alot of drug offenders away. Sure some return worse, but others have returned and became productive citizens. It depends on the individual. Our criminal and prison system is not perfect, but I have yet to see anything better. Just so you know MOSSO 00, I'm a retired cop and was a Narcotic officer. My son is a Meth addict currently in a state penitentiary. It has saved his life.
If I have offended anyone else in my respone, please accept my apology.

[Osborn F. Enready]

The war on drugs is a joke, started on bad logic, and the crime is tied to the black market, not the products.

I have never seen a competent argument for the WOD but I would love to see somebody take a stab, including logic, facts, and figures.

Here are some quotes by people you may respect, speaking on topic:
http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/quotes.html

Here is a group of LEO's who are making a logical point against the WOD, which by and large has a support by several states citizens.
http://leap.cc/

[Derby FALs]

In the last 24 years I have put my butt on the line to protect individual like you so that you are not effected. In that time I put alot of drug offenders away. Sure some return worse, but others have returned and became productive citizens. It depends on the individual. Our criminal and prison system is not perfect, but I have yet to see anything better. Just so you know MOSSO 00, I'm a retired cop and was a Narcotic officer. My son is a Meth addict currently in a state penitentiary. It has saved his life.
If I have offended anyone else in my respone, please accept my apology.

My $.02...
I believe you are too close to the problem to see what the WOD is doing to real liberty in this USA. It is having the same effect as the Volstead Act by creating a criminal blackmarket for alcohol. As far as I am concerned the government should have no say to what we put in our own bodies as long as it is voluntary. I would be OK with it meeting a govt standard of purity but even that should be on a State level.

[Edward429451]

They soak batteries to make meth? Is that for real? Just when you think you've heard it all.

You guys that go kickin in the doors of meth labs have my respect.

[M14fan]

I remember when Methamphetamine was sold as a prescription diet aid.

Unfortunately, meth is not a new drug. It was invented first by the Japanese well before the 20th century and was used by the Japanese military to hype up Kamakaze pilots during WWII. Unfortunately, the US military also used it on certain operations.

People who use Meth even once are addicted. The prescription version was less devastating to users than the current product because the ingredients and quality control were better. Unfortunately, use it once, addicted for life.

It is also my understanding that the toxic waste products produced cause severe defects in women exposed and that female officers are thus not allowed on meth-lab raids.

[22-rimfire]

Vostracker, great post. I don't think the war on drugs is a joke. It takes just a few uses of meth to be addicted. Once addicted to meth or any drug for that matter, it eventually destroys your life as you loose your job, can't afford to buy the drug, make the drug and are exposed to all kinds of hazardous chemicals, burn your house down or someone's you are renting, makes you paranoid and eventually dangerous. You would not believe the pig sties that these people live in and frequently there are little children in the house. Great parenting.

I have seen trash everywhere in these houses.... months worth. Clothes everywhere, often knee deep with trails to walk around the piles.... great environment.

Legalization, interesting concept? Well, how would you go about making it legal and distributing it? At liquor stores? Pharmacies? Perscription from a doctor? Drug dealer on the street? I can understand legalization of pot, but even pot is a pretty bad thing for the young. Meth, there are few worse things on the street as it stimulates your pleasure centers; hence quick addiction.

[Crosshair]

Well, how would you go about making it legal and distributing it?

Tax it like alcohol, sell it in pharmacies.

I can understand legalization of pot, but even pot is a pretty bad thing for the young.

How is pot bad? It is less dangerous and addictive than cigarettes. Only the prohibitionists still say pot is dangerous. I simply quit pot cold turkey and never had any problems. More people in my high school got messed up because of alcohol, not pot.

Yea, meth is a bad drug. Heck there are lots of drugs that can be abused. You ever seen what someone can do with NyQuil and NoDoz. (Quite a bit actualy.) Do you know what kids can do with their Ritalin?

The fact is that drugs are readily available today. By making them legal all you are doing is eliminating the black market profits and crime, lowering the prices, and raising tax money that can be used for rehab and education. People have been screwing up their lives through different means since man began walked the earth. Making something illegal is not going to solve anything.

Ask yourself: If drugs were legal and of pharmaceutical purity, would you use them? Personaly, I would probably smoke pot, mabee do some cooking with pot, try LSD just to check it out, and that would be about it. (Can't fault me for being honest.) If you don't want to do drugs that is fine, don't. The people who want to do drugs will continue to do so regardless of the legality of those drugs. Those who have to resort to crime to feed their habbit would be put in jail/rehab.

[vostracker]

Edward: They use the lithium from the lithium batteries. Its very explosive when it comes into contact with water.

M24fan: The EPA states all meth lab sites and dumps are hazardous waste sites. Approx. cost to clean up and despose of a lab, $5000.00 plus. They also state a residence used in the manufacture is to be condemed if not professionally cleaned. The hazards in exsposure is very high. The equipment we used is the same as they used to investigate and clean bio hazardous material "Anthrax".

Derby and Osbourn: your statements concerning legalization are the same arguments made by the addicts, dealers and social users I came into contact with. It is their way of rationalizing and legitimizing their use of the drugs. In reference to the quotes and LEO claiming legaization. Ive heard them before from libertarian individuals with a financial agenda. Its a moot point IMHO. Let me ask you these question. Would you be comfortable with a child molester living next door or in your neighborhood? If not, Why? They prey on our children. Would you want a drug addict, dealer and/or user next door? The dealer preys on our children. That is there next customer. Heck, they give out freebies to the kids at school. The addict and/or user may look "cool" and your child will want to try what the user is using. What about a meth lab next door? The very possibility of it exploding or catching fire from the chemicals are high let alone the hazardous waste there tossing out.

My final thoughts. I dont have a problem with the legalization of Marijuana. I know some will say thats hippocritical, but I would rather use the money used in the enforcement of Marijuana for more dangerous drugs such as Meth, Heroin, Cocain, Etc..

[Derby FALs]

Derby and Osbourn: your statements concerning legalization are the same arguments made by the addicts, dealers and social users I came into contact with. It is their way of rationalizing and legitimizing their use of the drugs. In reference to the quotes and LEO claiming legaization. Ive heard them before from libertarian individuals with a financial agenda. Its a moot point IMHO. Let me ask you these question. Would you be comfortable with a child molester living next door or in your neighborhood? If not, Why? They prey on our children. Would you want a drug addict, dealer and/or user next door? The dealer preys on our children. That is there next customer. Heck, they give out freebies to the kids at school. The addict and/or user may look "cool" and your child will want to try what the user is using. What about a meth lab next door? The very possibility of it exploding or catching fire from the chemicals are high let alone the hazardous waste there tossing out.

All this was discussed in 1932 and the consensus was, leagalize it. I have a RSO living in the neghborhood. I know him. Grew up with him. He doesn't bother me at all. We are a town where one of the Catholic priests molested our young men. Lots of my friends got really big payoffs from the church. No one knew the priest was a predator. Which one is the most dangerous? The priest or my peer?

I am sure there are drugs users on my street. I don't know who does but they are there. I am OK with them. I don't want a meth lab next door. I don't want a pig farm either. That is what zoning ordinaces are all about. I still believe you are too close to the problem to emotionally disconnect. You may want to do get some counselling. Al-anon or Narcotics Anonymous may be of help.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Great Reply FAL

Vostracker said:
Derby and Osbourn: your statements concerning legalization are the same arguments made by the addicts, dealers and social users I came into contact with.

Much like I have heard LEO's claim they are protecting rights when arresting someone who harms nobody for having small amounts of drugs.
All it shows is that individuals rationalize differently, based on different values and logic sets, coupled with life experience.

Point?

Vostracker said:
It is their way of rationalizing and legitimizing their use of the drugs.

Obviously. I own my body. If I obtain something to put in it of mutual conscent, without infringing on the rights of others, I have the right to consume it.

Vostracker said:
In reference to the quotes and LEO claiming legaization. Ive heard them before from libertarian individuals with a financial agenda. Its a moot point IMHO.

I'm not doubting the honesty of your OPINION, I am doubting the intellectual honesty of the facts you base it on.

Vostracker said:
Let me ask you these question. Would you be comfortable with a child molester living next door or in your neighborhood?

It wouldn't bother me a bit, as if I had children I would be a responsible parent and teach my kids how to act/react in those types of situations.
I would certainly take care to observe as much as possible, but I would certainly not be in a state of fear.

Vostracker said:
If not, Why?

I have a right to protect myself, and my loved ones.

Vostracker said:
They prey on our children.

So does public education, bi-partisan politicians, ad agencies, and grandmas who like to pinch cheeks. Should we lock them all up too? According to WHOSE guidelines?

Vostracker said:
Would you want a drug addict, dealer and/or user next door?

If they are responsible citizens, I have no problem with drug use, period. Addicts are not responsible, as a rule. There are millions of responsible users, and you have probably worked alongside a few and never known.

Vostracker said:
The dealer preys on our children.

The market preys on our children, because it is FORCED outside the legal market by prohibition. The legal market recognizes adult and child differences, and regulates ads and marketing, sales and responsibility as such.
The black market has no "valid age for entry" and provides HUGE financial gains for those who risk it, due to NATURE of the black market.

Vostracker said:
That is there next customer. Heck, they give out freebies to the kids at school.

While this does happen, what makes you think the laws of prohibition make it better as opposed to worse?

Vostracker said:
The addict and/or user may look "cool" and your child will want to try what the user is using.

My child is MY responsibility. Blaming others for my childs bad choices is false BS, since I am the parent instilled the responsibility of educating that child on making the proper choices. This is people who refuse to admit they are bad parents who blame drugs, alchohol, guns and rock music for the ills of society.

Silly.

Vostracker said:
What about a meth lab next door? The very possibility of it exploding or catching fire from the chemicals are high let alone the hazardous waste there tossing out.

As I said, Legalization would include zoning laws, wouldn't it?
Do you like having a nuclear plant next door?
A Garbage Dump?
A Missile Silo?
A Prison? (which the drug was has put in more peoples backyards than anything, due to the constantly growing incarceration of non-violent, non-rights violators being imprisoned for volume or consumption.)

Your logic is beyond me, or blatantly flawed, unless you care to elaborate further.

[Mossy00]

Christ, please tell me he did not just say "the dealer preys on our children". Jesus man, I've never actually known anyone that really honestly believes those drug commercials where dealers are trying to give away their drugs to kids. You need to get a clue.

Cigarettes and alcohol should be the first things banned if you're honestly against drug use. They're FAR more deadly and kill exponentially more than illegal drugs. Drug use is a freedom. I could care less if some idiot wants to smoke crack, go ahead. He's going to whether it's illegal or not. Making it illegal only uses my tax dollars, turns non-violent offenders into violent ones, and creates a criminal ring surrounding the sale of drugs.

[vostracker]

Derby: Al-anon and Narcotics Anonymous are for people with drug addictions. I'm not a addict. I'm a retired Narcotics Officer.

Mossy00: Its fact, not "Commercials". Been there, seen it and arrested them! If you dont believe it, not my problem. I agree that alcohol and cigaretts are dangerous. But Legislation states they are legal substance.

Osborn: Your views are too liberal for me to address. Your point is taken and I agree that its the parents job to instill the proper values for them to grow up to be responsible adults, but sometimes that is not enough today.

I've stated my views and knowledge from 24 years of working the streets. Unless you've been there, you won't understand and I'll never change your minds. I wish you well and pray you will not have to experience anything we've discussed.

[Derby FALs]

Are you for real or just yanking our chain? You're a narc for 24 years, you have an addict son? And you are unaware of Al-Anon? Al-Anon is for people that are affected by addicted persons. Alcohol or drugs, the programs work the same. It helps them to deal with the emotional scarring. Sounds like it was right up your dysfunctional families alley. Too bad you never found it in time to help you and your son.