Protecting Myself

[Alyssa Marcia]

I was attacked in the womans bathroom a couple weeks ago at the mall. The guy locked the door with the intention of raping me. When I tried to mace him he grabed my arm and turned it down and all i could spray was his shirt, so it was of absolutely no use. He cut my arm with a knife pretty deep, 10 stitches. I then kicked him in the crotch and ran. When I came back with mall security he was gone. I have since then been looking into buying a personal hand gun for self deffense. I have been looking at the Browning Pro-9, I dont know much about guns but I know that I want to deffend myself, and this seems like a good gun to have. I was also wondering about consealed weapon laws in IL and how i may obtain one. Other than that, I will be moving to California in a year or so, and I was wondering about the same laws over there. Could any of you give me information on that, and also what you think of the gun I want to buy, and/or if you would suggest a better one.

[fisherman66]

I am sorry to hear of your ordeal. Sounds like you handled yourself expertly. I have no idea of the laws in IL or CA (except CA is pitiful in regards to gun control.) I doubt a handgun would have helped you in that situation given the angle of the pepper spray and twist of your arm, but who knows what the future holds.

I'd get something like a 2.25" SP101 (Ruger revolver 357) for conceled carry, but I'm partial to revolvers. A 357 can shoot 38 specials which are a really light load or 38+p and 357s.

There are plenty of options. Get what fits you the best. Take a class and you will have offers to shoot several guns.

[Twycross]

First, welcome to TFL! I hope you will stick around.

Second, a thumbs-up on your reaction.

As for IL and CA CCW laws, I would check Packing.org .

For a handgun, the Browning would work fine, as might the revolver suggestion. I admit I am not too keen on revolvers for SD, because of the limited ammunition capacity, or the .357 cartridge (very loud for the KO power), but they do have a good track record, and if you find one that fits you better than the Browning, go for it. However, I am by no means an expert on handguns. You might post your question in the General Handguns section. Also, if you have friends or relatives who own/shoot handguns, you might ask to go with them on their next shooting trip, to get the feel of firearms.

What might have helped you more was better situational awareness. You saw the guy come in and lock the door, you should have had the mace out and ready by then.

[Alyssa Marcia]

Actually, i never saw him come in, I heard the door open and someone close it and lock it, but I was still in the stall, I couldnt see anything but his shoes when he started pounding on the stall door. I was quite aware of the situation, I had the mace ready when I came out of the stall, but he was just too strong. Well thanks to the link you gave me, it seems I'm the wrong state to deffend myself in a public place. Even when I move to california, I have to have a specific party that I'm deffending myself from such as an ex, stalker, etc. I still wonder if there are ways to get around things like that, it is unacceptable that I should not be permited to protect myself. As a woman I do not have the strength to fight off an attacker, I am seaking whatever I feel nessary to protect myself. Do you by any chance know if a stun gun is considered a consealed weapon? I dont even need a permit to own one.

[Soybomb]

Sorry Alyssa, Illinois doesn't believe you have the right to protect yourself in that way. If you carry a gun loaded and ready with you in public you'll be the criminal. Odd isn't it. The closest you can come is carrying a gun unloaded without the magazine in it, in a container designed for holding a gun, such as a fanny pack holster. And even then its possible you'll have problems with the police. I would read this forum http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=282 some as there is some excellent advice there.

If someone could grab your arm and turn it down, that sounds like it might have been a dangerous way to loose control of a gun though anyway. Some self defense classes and some quality pepper spray like fox labs might be a good idea to consider also given our laws here.

Glad you made it out relatively unharmed.

[Twycross]

OK, ignore my part on situational awareness. For clarification, did you open the door, or did he open it?

BTW, have you considered martial arts classes?

[Alyssa Marcia]

I am a busy college student, and do not have the time to add a self deffence class to my list. I would however be able to attend a seminar or two about such things, but it would be more effective attending a couple hour gun seminar than a martial arts seminar which takes months of practice. I probably should have mentioned that I have handled my grandpa's guns before and know my way around the gun world a little bit, so I feel I already have knoledge in the field, that is how I have decided on the Pro-9.

[HighValleyRanch]

If you are moving to any of the big cities in Calif, a CCW is harder to obtain. However, some of the rural counties still give them out.

What part of California are you moving to?

[Twycross]

According to IL code, stun guns and tasers are considered deadly weapons, and are subject to CCW laws.

IL Code

[Alyssa Marcia]

damn that IL law. Sure this is an irrational comment, but its as if lawmakers dont care if women can deffend themselves. We aren't violent people, we just want to protect ourselves. I am going to move to the suburbs outside of San Diego, I know that crime isnt as bad as in LA, but crime isnt bad here where I live in the burbs outside of Chicago, and I still got attacked.

[Soybomb]

What brand of mace were you carrying? From what I can tell that seems to make a huge difference. In the reading I've done it seems like a quality pepper spray like the fox labs stuff has a much better chance of doing what you want than something you picked up at walmart. Take a look here http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread....hreadid=415137 for an example. Perhaps a 2oz can of flip top fogger would be good to have in your purse.

[CobrayCommando]

http://www.shootersshop.com/misc_kni...cocivilian.jpg

The Spyderco Civilian, legal to carry concealed in California (please correct me if I'm wrong).

[fisherman66]

Your story could have more impact on your congressmen/women than an NRA petition. I wouldn't hesitate to write a few letters.

[big daddy 9mm]

I hope they get the guy the did that. I liked the first guys idea. go with a small revolver or semi. 9mm and 38 easily controllable.

[Massan]

Its sad what happened to you but politicans dont really care bout the little guys, or in your case the girls. Write letters to everyone, members of the community, your college, NRA and try to bring the subject into the open. Get supporters and maybe the damn politicans will eventually change the law. In regards to what gun you should carry, if you have no experience with handguns I would suggest a small revolver. Their easier to maintain and handle than most semi-autos and generally easier to conceal for women. Defitently attend a self-defense class if you can, avoid those lame ass "martial arts" stuff that come dime a dozen, for each real class there are 20 more bad ones. Research what class and ask members what they think of it. In regards to the actions you took, it would have been better to stay inside the stall.

[LAK]

Alyssa,

Good to hear you fought back and overcame that one. Don't stay in Illinois, and don't move to California. Move to a State like Vermont - you do not need any paper to carry a pistol there.

[Alyssa Marcia]

Well im not going to live somewhere depending on my right to carry a gun, im not gonna let fear keep me from doing what I want with my life, and that includes where I live. I was using the fox labs mace by the way, and it doesnt matter how effective of a chemical it is if the guy turns my hand away, I ended up getting his sholder all wet. As far as losing control of a gun the same way, I do believe that if I shot him in the sholder in self deffence the ordeal would end right there. Last time I tried to write a letter to the government, me and my friends all did it together. We all recieved the exact same photo copy letter saying that our congressmen would do their best to represent us, so basicly it was a, "ok, we get it, blah blah, some bull****, have a nice day."

[nug_38]

I am sorry to hear that that incident happened to you. I am happy to hear that you, except for the cut, is ok.

Before this incident, did you ever use the pepper spray? Did you ever test it out? It might be a good idea to test it outside when its calm so you can guage the effective distance of the stream.

You may consider carrying a knife of your own. I think you should get training on how to use it well. Since you don't have plans in the near future to live in a gun friendly state, your choices are very limited.

Stay safe

[molonlabe]

Welcome to the board. I would like to suggest two things. One, that you make an attempt to attend a “Refuse to be a victim” seminar in your area. NRA volunteers conduct these seminars. My wife recently attended one (she is a shooter) and learned a wealth of information that I wasn’t even aware of (another lesson learned). Two, that you attend a “Woman on target clinic” also by the NRA. It is possible that nether of these would have helped your situation but the first instructs you on various options open to you, how to protect yourself in your home, car and other areas. The second will teach you familiarity and safety with a firearm. There are specific seminars in Rifle. Pistol and shotgun and airgun and I would suggest pistol. Both can be taken on a weekend (1 day) and should not interfere with your college schedule.

I and an NRA instructor and I have been involved with the WOT program since it’s inception and I have found that most women enjoy shooting sports as much as men. Given that woman represent 50% of the population it is imperative that we bring as many of them into the shooting community as possible. I believe that is the only way we will protect our 2 amendment rights. Countless woman like yourself are now questioning our gun law that prohibit law abiding citizens to protect themselves from criminal elements. I hope you stick around, join the shooting sports, become an activist and bring more women into the sports. When I started there were one or two women in our area conducting the programs with the men, now the women run it and I now volunteer my time at the line at these events for one on one instruction on the firing line. Good luck and I am glad your safe.

http://www.nrahq.org/women/

[PythonGuy]

I'm wondering how the guy could lock the door as public bathrooms in mall's require a key to lock, and usually from the outside. If he so easily overpowered you for your mace, I'm not so sure a gun would have faired much better in your case. A moot point as the places you choose to live don't allow you to carry, pepper spray as Soybomb suggests is the best alternative. And go in pairs as women tend to do, its not safe alone.

[butch50]

Do I hear bumping sounds under the bridge?

[XavierBreath]

I, too, am sorry you had to go through this experience.

I'm going to be brutally honest here. There are times that a person just cannot prevent an attack. This, though, likely was not one of them. I would wager a weeks pay that this guy did not just happen to find himself in a ladies bathroom, lock the door and then discover you there. You were likely either seen entering the bathroom, or more likely seen elsewhere and followed. Rapists do not randomly check women's bathrooms. They select victims and stalk them until the victim places themselves in a place of vulnerability.

In today's age, it is not popular to point out what a rape victim could have done better to avoid the horrific experience of rape. It is called "blaming the victim" by the very people who seek to remove the woman's options of self defense. In reality, self examination and scutiny of the incident is necessary to protect yourself from a reoccurance. When a man gets beat to the ground, it's OK to say "He should not have done __________(fill in the blank). When a woman is raped, or a rape is attempted, it is not politically correct to do the same. Put that nonsense aside, and examine your own actions, intuitions, and thoughts prior to the incident. Realize that the best way to prevent your particular event would have been to never go into that bathroom alone.

I once read that humans are the only animals on Earth that rationalize away their fear. All other animals, from lions to dolphins, to fruit flies act on fear. Humans want to believe their world is safe and active self preservation is not necessary, so they convince themselves that their intuition is wrong, and that unsafe actions and unsafe places are indeed safe. The real world is not what ought to be, but what is. Sometimes this rationalization is so imbedded we do not even know we have supressed our intuitive voice that is trying to warn us.

So where does this leave us? While in the mall, did you have any inkling you were being followed or observed? When you went into the bathroom, did you have any feeling of the same? Did you have any reservations at all? If so, realize that was the little intuitive voice that will save your butt, and respect and cultivate it. If not, become more observant. I am not saying become paranoid, but more aware of what is happening around you. Realize that it is the voice, the intuition, the fear, that will save you, not pepper spray, not a knife, and not a gun.

Here is a good link to read up on. Keep an open mind and read it.No Nonsense Self Defense

Now, here are my thoughts on rape protection (not prevention) with tools instead of wits. If all else goes to a handbasket, and you were unable to detect a potential threat and are about to be raped, the encounter will be close quarters and swift. There will be an attempt to immediately overpower you with force, likely from behind. You will likely not be exchanging blows, but wrestling for control and escape.

To escape you MUST neutralize your attacker. You did this with a kick to the groin. Very good. You had that option and used it. It worked. Thankfully he did not have a friend along for the ride. You did what many other women could not do. Be proud of yourself.

But now you want a weapon. Realize that the weapon is not a magic talisman, but a tool to help you survive. Your determination and aggressiveness when attacked, which you have already demonstrated, is the magic talisman. Get the tool, but hone the correct talisman. You have several weapons choices. I'll talk about each in relation to a close in on the ground type fight for your life.

Pepper Spray. As you saw, aim is vital with this stuff. The real danger though, is if the can is old or has sat in your hot car, and lost pressure without you knowing it. I have seen cans of OP squirt out a stream that would make a man with prostate cancer ashamed. In a ground fight, you simply do not have the range to use it effectively, and if your attacker's shoulder had rubbed across your face, guess what? You would be fighting blind. I don't like pepper spray. I expect any fight I will be in to be going to the ground quickly, and this is to much of a risk for me.

Knives. A better weapon IMHO. If you can legally carry a 5-6 inch knife (non-folder) in a boot, you will not likely find a better weapon in a ground fight. The real questions are what is legal, and will you use it effectively. This is not a disabling weapon. This is a deadly weapon. The bad thing about knives is if you end up in front of a jury, they tend to be seen as even worse than a gun. Carrying knives are considered by many people to be a sign of a low class hoodlum looking for trouble. That does not negate their effectiveness in a fight though. If you know your laws, get an effective knife, train with it, and are willing to use it, it's hard to beat. Knives don't run out of ammo. The real risk is the aftermath of legal issues.

Guns. There are two basic types of handgun. Semi-Autos and Revolvers. I like them both and have no real prejudices. Many people like semi-autos best. I will say that in a close in fight for your life a revolver is superior. Why? Because you can jam a revolver into your assailant's ribs and fire it repeatedly. If you do this with a semi-auto, you will push it out of battery and it will not fire.

Many people say that the revolver is handicapped because of capacity. On the surface, this would seem to be the case. In a running gun battle at any distance, it would be handicapped. The reality of attacks on the street though are not running gun battles, but quick unsuspected take downs and beatings on the ground. You do not have to hold your ground with your gun. You only need to use it as a tool to facilitate your escape to safety. In your attack, escape was likely less than 50 feet. In this scenerio, a tool to facilitate escape, capacity means less, effectiveness means more. My vote is for a snubnose revolver. I carry one, so don't think I am recommending a "lesser" gun for a novice or a woman. The snubbie revolver is the finest real world close in fighting handgun around. Buy one with a shrouded hammer or a concealed hammer for ease of drawing. Buy it in .357magnum for penetration at muzzle contact. If you opt for .38spl, carry +P ammo (this is my compromise). Buy a quality gun. Think Smith & Wesson.

Finally, I know you are young and do not want this kind of thing to control what you want to do with your life. Realize how important effective realistic self preservation is though. When you think about going to a place like California, do not rationalize away you need for protection. I don't think you would go to Baghdad without any protection, why would you want to go elsewhere and walk unprotected. You can die just as easily in either place. Personal attacks in California are less likely than in Baghdad you say? Are they? It's a gamble isn't it? Do you gamble with your life often?

Welcome to the Firing Line! I hope you stick around. I'm sorry for the long treatise, my oldest daughter was raped a couple of years ago at the age of 21. This is basically how I talked with her. I hope you are not offended by my words, they are made with the best of intent. The most important thing for protecting yourself though, is that voice of intuition, the one we try to rationalize away. The one that just may be saying "California? Wait a minute, I can't carry a gun there........" Listen to that voice and be protected by it.

[shield20]

If you wisely choose to avoid moving to California, that would not be giving into fear, it would however show you are not willing to give into the foolish politicians and liberal elites who want control over your life too - those who think you are not responsible enough, your not entitled enough, to handle your own safety. It is one thing to live out here in a nice gated community with security patrols, private parks and schools and pools etc., it is another thing to live 'out there', just down the road in the real world. And it is only going to get worse here for the legal gun owner - which means it will only be a matter of time before violent crime increases more then ever - it always does. We see it now as stupid law after stupid law comes down the pipe in attempts to limit our rights to self-preservation.

If a loved one in my life had a situation as you described, I really think I would find a way to get them to carry, no matter what those idiots who try to rule us think. Its YOUR life. In this case, a gun would have to be comparatively small - something like a PPK/S or Sig .380 size for real concealability. I am partial to semis, but I would back up her choice as long as she could handle the weapon easily and consistently.

[RWK]

You have my profound sympathies for having to enduring this experience; it should happen to no one and punishment should be severe. You should be most pleased with the way you handled both yourself and the situation.

Unfortunately, as you have already learned, both California and Illinois are among the most “firearms unfriendly” states. While they simply cannot provide sufficient protection from felons, they refuse to allow individuals to adequately protect themselves.

I would like to offer a few suggestions:
a) A bid dog: always highly protective, intimidating to strangers, great to its friends, and equipped with senses that far exceed humans’.
b) A mid-size, top-quality .357 magnum revolver, such as a Ruger GP100/KGP-141 or a Smith and Wesson 686 (L Frame). These are “do everything very well weapons”: Strong, top quality, accurate, safe, very durable and reliable, and easy to master. In addition, they accommodate the full range of both .38 Special and .357 magnum rounds, thereby allowing you to practice inexpensively and to defend yourself potently. Many individuals favor autoloaders; however, the proven reliability, simplicity, accuracy, safety, and durability of top-quality revolvers is very difficult to beat, especially for a first sidearm. Some also suggest six rounds is inferior to a semiautomatic’s ten-round -- or considerably greater -- capacity; however, the probability of requiring this firearm at all -- no less needing more than six rounds -- is very small indeed.
c) Training: Take some self-defense classes and, should you choose to have a handgun, learn from an experienced, well-qualified person, remember safety is paramount and practice, practice, practice.

With best regards.

[XD Dude]

It will not be impossible to get a CCW in northern San Diego county. I would research packing.org for more info. It seems in this instance, a gun or other weapon would have been useless, if not an increased danger. When he had a knife, you could fight back without an unbearable risk. Imagine if he had gotten the gun away from her and held it to her head during the attack..scary! CCW in the hands of the untrained is a bad idea. Anyone who goes out and buys a gun and just starts carrying, especially when they have not been around them is a really bad idea.

My 0.02 is to move where you like (california gun law is bad, but not as bad as some say, not as bad as IL it sounds from this. I know an aweful lot of people with CCW here...not totally uncommon). San Diego, especially north county is one of the nicest parts of So Cal. Just keep an eye out, as threats are anywhere, but at least you are not moving to the hood!

Take some self defense classes for women, and if you feel the need, move up to handgun and ccw classes. You will probably get your permit after proper training is verified. I would also venture to say aside from self defense class, making friends to go shopping with may be the best bet of them all.