A bit of historical consideration: .32 acp - eventually outdated?

[gyvel]

The Colt, Remington and Savage were all pre-WWII,

That is true. The .32 ACP was far more popular in Europe where pistols were carried more as a badge of authority. Europeans in general had more respect for "authority" than Americans, and large calibre handguns were reserved for the military.

Since WWII, Europeans have become more "westernized" (read: "Americanized") and thus have less respect for the law and authority, necessitating the drift to larger calibre weapons for police.

[Bill DeShivs]

I don't know what you consider "low production," but Keltec has probably made more .32s than you could ever imagine.

[Trooper Joe]

"......RX-79G .......
However, .32 ACP is a semi-rimmed case, which causes far more problems than it solves. We could use a better cartridge, like .32 Super or 7.62x17 to offer a hair more power and better feed characteristics....."

RX-79G, great post. The rim lock problem only occurred with hp 32 ACP ammo since these rounds are generally shorter than standard ball ammo. Kel-Tec has an excellent fix with their "Rim Lock" eliminator kit that really works. Prior to getting these for my P-32, I carried it for several years with a Silvertip in the barrel and top magazine round. The rest of the rounds were ball or fmj.

Seecamp addressed this problem a different way by making their magazines short enough to only accept hp (shorter) rounds. Their are a number of hp rounds that work in the Seecamp, not only Silvertip.

The"better cartridges" that you mentioned have been addressed by NAA with their 25 NAA round (a sort of 32 ACP case without the rim and slightly longer than a stock 32 ACP case/you cannot neck one down) and the 32 NAA which is actually a necked down 380 ACP case. My .25 NAA, Guardian is really a hoot to shoot.

As I mentioned in other posts, I buy these premier guns (Seecamp, Guardian and others) and in a few days finding my self going back to my beloved 6 oz., P-32 Kel-Tec (4 years old and has never failed).

I also have a Beretta model 70 32 ACP as well as a Sig 230 in 32 ACP made for the Japanese police. Really great guns.

Great topic and thanks for all your input.

Trooper Joe

[RX-79G]

Trooper,

What I was getting at was that it would be great to have a cartridge with the size efficiency of .32ACP, but without any feed issues and maybe more power.

With the possible exception of 5.7x28, I think bottle neck rounds for pistols make no sense at all. Pistol velocities are too low to waste mag capacity on fat cases and skinny bullets. For instance, .357 Sig lacks the wounding diameter or .40 or the magazine capacity of 9x23.

Just as 9x23 modernized .38 Super, .32 could use a makeover and some .25ACP sized guns to go with it.

[simonrichter]

Since WWII, Europeans have become more "westernized" (read: "Americanized") and thus have less respect for the law and authority

that may have some truth in it, yet I wish it had more....

[barnbwt]

"The only reason the .32ACP became dated, prior to the recent development of personal defense ammo, was because modern medicine made it so."

Somehow I doubt anyone ever shot anybody at pistol distances with the expectation of killing them slowly through sepsis (long after their own demise )

I suspect its decline was more due to NATO adoption of 9mm post war, coupled with massive subsidy of police/military forces through nation-level spending during the Cold War. Namely, the adoption of the Hi Power by many police units. 9mm was needed in the first place because only cast/FMJ bullets were available at the time and to military-users, so the caliber increase was a distinct advantage. If hollowpoints can be made to reliably expand at 32acp velocities (or if 32acp +P can be explored) I'll bet a portion of that advantage vanishes considering the reduced size/weight/recoil of a 32cal.

But it's also true that we're generally bigger/stronger than previously (or bigger, at least ) so it's quite possible that "the largest caliber you can manage" has also increased on average.

TCB

[simonrichter]

+1 for barnbwt's explanation, that makes sense for me, absolutely!

[Armybrat]

My KT P32 is a nice, reliable little shooter, but haven't carried it since I bought an LCP.
Another neat little .32 is my North American Guardian - made like a Swiss watch like this one:

[gyvel]

Trooper,

What I was getting at was that it would be great to have a cartridge with the size efficiency of .32ACP, but without any feed issues and maybe more power.

In other words, the 7.65mm French long.

[PSP]

Any opposite views?

My guess is that the smaller calibers are carried much more often and by many more people than gun lore has us believe. The .32 cal in particular is, IMHO, a very popular caliber as judged by the number of guns sold in the caliber and the difficulty in finding ammo.

I suspect the Berettas and Seecamps and Keltecs, etc., will be popular for a long time. Especially as us baby boomers age and seek convenience as we recede from contact with the public due to retirement and lessened activity.

[CajunBass]

I had never given much thought to a 32, other than a wishing for a Smith & Wesson K-32, until I saw a Walther PP in 7.65 at my LGS. My wife was wanting something with less recoil than a small frame 38 due to her arthritus, but in about the same size package.

So the Walther seems to fill the order.



Maybe it's not a powerhouse, but it's better than nothing, or a really nice 38 back home in the safe. Heck, I'm a revolver guy and I really like this thing. I might have to look for another one, or try to convince my wife she really wants something else.

[Ibmikey]

Cajun bass, I have a 7.65 Walther also and it sports the same lanyard loop. I have never before seen the square loop so perhaps they were special order for police or military. My pistol does not have anything other than factory markings. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[PSP]

My PP has the same lanyard loop. It shows a NDS cartouche, (German Police), just behind the trigger. Beautifully designed pistol IMHO.

[SIGSHR]

Not outdated, just out of fashion, at least in some circles. I would say the 38 S&W is outdated in terms of new production, loads available, etc.

[chesterfield]

My Tomcat spends a lot of time in my back pocket too. It's convenient around the house, especially if I'm working out in the yard or I'm on the tractor. As far as the .32 acp becoming outdated or obsolete when one shows up at any of the pawn shops I frequent it doesn't last long, usually sold within a day or two of being put in the display case.

[51.50]

I have a Beretta 90 in 32acp. It is really fun to shoot. My younger daughter wants it bad but I told to "find your own". She thinks I should give it to her because I have a Kel tec 32 that functions perfectly. I did give her my Kahr CW40 because it fit her hand and not mine. I notice sometimes I can get 32 ammo for $15 per box of 50 at the gun show. The Kel tec is very light , easily concealed.

[wojtekimbier]

I think some consider .32 acp obsolete because guns (in general) get smaller and lighter over time, to the point where today's subcompact 9's can fit in your jeans pocket and a modern .380 acp gun (like lcp) can cover almost everyone's ccw needs.
There is little demand for micro .32 guns that are even more compact, instead, people want guns with .380 power because they are small enough for them. Advances in design technology, precise machinery and light polymers all have their role in that.

[Bill DeShivs]

It is simple fact that .25s can be made smaller than .32s, 32s smaller than .380s, etc. If Keltec decided to build a .25, scaled to the cartridge, it would be tiny, very flat and very lightweight.

[ballardw]

I like showing all the Glock fans how easy it is to disassemble a Savage .32ACP.

No tools at all to remove barrel, sear, trigger and bolt and about 45 seconds at that.

[Archie]

I collect 'art deco' .32 ACP or 7.65mm (depending on one's schooling) pistols. I don't have quite as many as IBMikey, but my current collection is thirteen. (I suppose with that number I may have to buy more...) I enjoy them on the basis of their historical significance and the engineering involved.

I don't think of them as substantial 'stoppers' in the modern accepted sense. They don't have a great deal of kinetic energy or momentum. (My normal carry gun is a .45 ACP. The smallest gun I normally carry is a pair of 2 inch M&Ps in .38 Special loaded with heavy-duty wadcutters.) What the 7.65mm pistols do have is low recoil and much under appreciated accuracy. I test all the pistols I own. They will all register two to three inch groups at 15 yards - that's minute of schnoz, not minute of head. (Yes, I am aware of movement and the dynamics of an armed encounter; I'm discussing the inherent accuracy of the weapon system. Nor is that statement meant as a general tactic for such difficulties.)

Modern medicine has removed much of the fear factor from being shot. Whereas I agree with BarnBWT, in that I would never consider shooting someone expecting them to expire in a few day's time from 'complications'. However, back in the old days, it was probably on the mind of the shootee. Getting shot with anything was a serious matter, long term.

Another consideration is the effective penetration of the standard round. A 7.65mm round of 6 grams mass is an effective penetrator. A properly aimed round will penetrate to vitals and cause damage. (Which is not to say a 9mm, .40 or .45 caliber won't penetrate better and do more damage.)

When the time comes my .38 Special revolvers generate more recoil than I can tolerate, I consider the humble .32 ACP - probably in a model M Colt or 1935 Beretta - will have to do.

A note about really 'tiny' pistols. Bill DeShivs mentioned the possibility of building a .25 ACP in a "...tiny, very flat and very lightweight" pistol. I am certain he is correct. However, the problem would be similar to that of a calculator build into a watch: How does one hold and operate the device? Aside from the perceived recoil aspect (a thin, light pistol would tend to gouge the shooting hand), how does one aim and fire the device accurately?

Just a consideration.

[Bill DeShivs]

I have no problem with my Browning or Bernardelli .25s. The Keltec would be similar, but flatter than either.

[michael t]

I would buy a 25 auto KelTec in a heart beat . Got 4 P-32 1 P3AT and a PF-9

need a 25 Come on KelTec

[larryh1108]

I am reloading .32ACP right now. I took a break to stretch my legs (single stage). The .32ACP has it's place and is fun at the range. The cost of ammo is enough to keep it in the safe but reloading for it allows you to shoot it for the fun it provides. I don't carry it but would, if the need arose, and not feel under-gunned. It's been around for over 100 years for a reason.

[Arizona Fusilier]

I think the OP got the history lesson down accurate enough....of course history is constantly being written.

I always thought .380 would be my power floor, but I just had to have that Kel-Tec 32.

Light, thin, "shirt pocket" is a good description. But I don't think I would bite on a .25 ACP.

[Oysterboy]

The 32acp is pretty capable. A friend has a 32 revolver and he was shooting 32 longs at a barrel and they just dent it. He went got his moon clips and loaded it with 32acp. They went through the barrel.

Long ago I used to have a 25 and one winter I left a gallon milk jug of water outside and it froze. I shot my 25 through it which surprised me. I would say that a 25 is better than a knife and allows you to keep your distance from a knife wielding BG.

A 32acp is definitely better than a 25.