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November 8, 2013, 12:09 PM | #76 |
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I have thought about compromise quite a bit.
The problem is the starting point. One might argue that a subsection of the gun world wants absolutely no restrictions on anything. As argued that isn't true now and not viable. Do we want 10 year olds to buy 1911s in an unsupervised manner? Those are the examples that make some regulations reasonable. On the other side - the problem is that their majority starting point is the elimination of the private ownership of firearms and carry. The only exception would be some sporting gun such as a double barrel shotgun which if used as a weapon is a side effect of its sporting use. Just as I might bean you on the head with a croquet mallet. Gun folks who buy into the sporting argument - the idiotic modern sporting rifle - implicitly buy into a very strict regulation regime. If the 'anti' starting acknowledge the right to own 'reasonable weapons - debate can start on that - and shall issue carry (maybe with negotiable training) - then there could be some dialog. How do we deal with mental health issues - for example? Felons? Age limits? But if you start with everything gone except some limited sporting usages, there's no debate possible. You have to acknowledge the legitimacy of the 2nd Amend for defense of self, defense against tyranny and even a call out for when the Martians land. If it is just for ducks - then no debate is possible. Metcalf (as in his GA TV piece) bought into a weak position without real thought - or maybe he did believe what he said. Legit gun opinion surveys (not political ones) indicate most of the country supports owning guns as a right but wants them out of the hands of criminals (and is open to ways to control it - like some kind of background checks). The problem with background checks (are there reasonable ones) is that for the anti gun - that is not the goal but the first step to getting rid of all and only having rich guy duck guns in burbs for VP wives.
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November 8, 2013, 12:55 PM | #77 | ||
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Metcalf has responded to his firing here.
I have to say, it's no more coherent than his original column. Notice this chestnut: Quote:
Second, I'm dismayed and mistrustful of the idea that he hopes the regulations are "appropriate." There's a blind trust in the government there. But he makes a point we have to consider: Quote:
Out of all the online rants, I saw very few attempts at rebuttal, and even fewer at argument. This whole situation shows a very disturbing facet to the gun culture. Rather than open a debate, we stormed the town square and demanded he be burned at the stake for articulating an unorthodox viewpoint. The gun culture has become a dogmatic mob. Yay for us.
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November 8, 2013, 12:59 PM | #78 |
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Glenn,
Your post sketches the philosophical unease that 2a folks approach gun laws: Give an inch and they'll take a mile. The reality is that laws are individual bundles of action that don't sit on a good/bad continuum. A well crafted law can better define a type of regulation while simultaneously affirming the greater right and protecting it. Such a law can only be written and passed by gun people. Such a law could be passed in place of a right damaging one. But if we are forbidden from even discussing regulation, the only laws to vote on will be our opponents. And you can't win by only playing defense. |
November 8, 2013, 01:05 PM | #79 | |
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Quote:
If Mr. Metcalf was mistaken in mixing the militia collective-rights argument and the individual RKBA argument, and ownership of an AR-15 is justified by the individual RKBA, "end of story", why bring up the militia at all? To many, you would seem to be conflating the two concepts as well, just in a subtly different manner from Mr. Metcalf. I know that many in the gun community are infatuated with the argument that the prefatory clause justifies civilian ownership of military-style weapons- an argument seemingly supported by the U.S. v. Miller decision. (I say "seemingly" because, asides from Justice James McReynolds, I don't think anybody can truly discern what the Miller decision actually says. ) However, any gun-rights argument that involves the prefatory clause is IMHO a really slippery slope, because the historical U.S. militia operated under very strict government control, including regulations that most modern gun owners would find abhorrent and outrageous- e.g. public musters at which all firearms were registered, seizure of individual militia members' firearms for use by other militiamen, etc. I would rather just stop talking about the prefatory clause altogether, unless someone comes up with a truly serious proposal to revive the state militias.
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November 8, 2013, 02:28 PM | #80 |
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Mr Metcalf's basic premise seems to be that he is the injured party and did no wrong. He was just following in Col Cooper's footsteps. I am certain the Col is spinning in his grave.
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November 8, 2013, 02:55 PM | #81 |
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Wonder if this will make the national media. Politico mentions it:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/...nt-177036.html
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November 8, 2013, 03:21 PM | #82 | |
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Quote:
If it hadn't been for the scope and vitriol of the backlash, I wonder if that would have happened?
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November 8, 2013, 04:06 PM | #83 |
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I'd bet getting fired did that. Is this a bad thing?
It might give pause to politicians who think they might pander to gun control if they weren't an anti already. As I said, until we get reasonable acknowledgment of 2nd Amend rights from people negative to all aspects of guns, discussing compromise among ourselves seems to produce little game. A long time ago in Oregon (and I don't remember the details ) when the CCW bill came up, it passed along with some mild anti measure that had no real impact. It made the antis happy. Some purists said no and local GOA opposed the bill as the Constitution made carry legal, etc. But it passed and the state had concealed carry before TX. Does such middle ground exist now? I don't see it.
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November 8, 2013, 05:48 PM | #84 | |
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Quote:
Further, after skewering the language of the Second Amendment by totally misconstruing the meaning of "regulated," he then segued into defending Illinois' training requirement, and even went further by saying that he didn't think 16 hours of training was unreasonable, but that it had to be "good" training. As I posted above, using Texas and Pennsylvania as examples, there simply are no statistics to support the hypothesis that 16 hours of training as a prerequisite to issuance of a carry license (a la Texas) makes the world any safer than just taking the applicant's fingerprints and running a background check. In short, Metcalf was indulging in editorial elitism. There is no provision for elitism in the Second Amendment. |
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November 8, 2013, 06:40 PM | #85 |
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Aguila,
I have read here more than a few times that you feel that any regulation is an illegal infringement. I think it is disingenuous for you to say now that Metcalf's argument was merely poorly made - you aren't going to agree with any sort of firearms regulation, no matter how well crafted the argument. Same with probably 90% of those who had him fired - it wasn't what he said; it was that he said anything at all in that vein. |
November 8, 2013, 06:44 PM | #86 | |
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A proposal comes along that says we're repealing most of the thing, but you do still have to send in a registration certificate to let the Feds know you have it. Will the hardcore take-no-prisoners crowd pillory me for supporting it even though we have a net gain? If so, we're allowing a situation in which nobody wants to advocate for incremental gains in fear of being called a sellout by the true believers. Metcalf screwed up. No doubt about it. But does the punishment really fit the perceived crime?
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November 8, 2013, 08:19 PM | #87 | |
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Quote:
Metcalf didn't HAVE an argument. He proposed an unpopular idea, tried to back it up with misinformation (if it wasn't disinformation), and then demonstrated his essential Fudd by advocating that the strictest pre-licensure training requirement in the entire country (I believe that's correct -- hasn't Texas finally dropped it to just one day?) might be sufficient training -- but only IF it's "good" training. That's just another way of saying, "I support your right to carry arms, but I don't trust you to do so until you're as good as I am." There is nothing disingenuous about my position. Merriam-Webster On-line defines disingenuous as ": lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness." There is nothing about my position that is lacking in candor. I state my position, I explain it as clearly and plainly as I can, and there it sits. Others are free to agree with me or not (as Frank does not). I'm not trying to con anybody with my statements. As for my agreeing "with" any sort of firearms regulation, you can't possibly know or predict with what I might agree or disagree unless and until it has been proposed and I have responded. My point is simply that I do not believe the Second Amendment allows for ANY regulation of possession or carry of "arms." Period. That's simple, and it's based purely on the language of the Second Amendment itself, read in conjunction with the Fourth Amendment, in which the Founders demonstrated clearly that where they wished to allow for "reasonable regulation" they were fully capable of saying so. I have also acknowledged the reality that we have regulation of the RKBA, and that we probably always will. The fact that we have it does not require that I (or anyone) believe this is correct and proper, but we must accept reality. Then the question becomes one of how much regulation is "reasonable," and whether or not any particular regulation succeeds in accomplishing its purported purpose while being the least intrusive on the exercise of the RKBA as possible. That is open to debate, and I am willing to debate it. I am NOT willing to enter a debate that has a profound misreading of the Second Amendment as its starting point, and an elitist statement as its ending point. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 8, 2013 at 08:39 PM. |
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November 8, 2013, 09:12 PM | #88 |
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Way too many "moderates" get upset when people on their side disagree with them and then resort to name calling and overly patronising remarks. That is what most of the gun owning, yet gun control supporting persons are doing. Metcalf like many others starts off with an insulting patronising tone, and the insults just keep coming. Then afterward they talk about how mean everyone is based on the worst few examples, and often go into a long drawn out "whoa is me for being the only reasonable person around" speech. All the while being very light on any actual debate and not responding to their opponents arguments, or ignoring most of it (such as disagreements with the premise or setup) and constantly dragging in red herrings and straw men.
There is also a heavy amount of "I am sure I will get in trouble for saying this, but..." false bit of martyrdom going around. If people have something to say they can just say it without the insults and drama. Metcalf was rude, among other faults, and now he is whining as if his opinion is (only) what got him into trouble. |
November 8, 2013, 09:17 PM | #89 |
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Aguila,
I'm not insulting you, but I do think it 'lacks candor' when you make it sound the problem is the argument, when no argument would ever sway you. It's like telling a chef you don't like his steaks, but you're actually a vegetarian. |
November 8, 2013, 10:12 PM | #90 | |
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Quote:
The fact that I am not likely to concede that the language of the Second Amendment admits of any regulation doesn't mean that I am unwilling to engage in a meaningful debate regarding what a "reasonable" degree of regulation should or could be ("if" it were countenanced by the Second Amendment). I accept that we have to live with a Supreme Court ruling that has held that the 2A IS subject to "reasonable" regulation. But the SCOTUS expressly declined to tell us what the threshold of "reasonable regulation" is, so in order to live under Heller and McDonald we MUST have that debate. I won't stay aloof from the debate just because I don't personally believe we should be having it. However, for Mr. Metcalf to write that the militia clause of the Second Amendment means modern day gun regulations was just plain silly. For him to argue that to "regulate" is NOT the same as to "infringe" is even sillier. Regulation IS "by definition" infringement. And for him to magnanimously proclaim that 16 hours of training is enough, IF it's "good" (meaning, of course, "What I consider to be good") training is downright insulting. The NRA "Basic Pistol" class (which I am certified to teach, and which is accepted or required by a great many states requiring safety training as a prerequisite to issuing a carry license) is only eight hours. According to Mr. Metcalf, then, the NRA's course is chopped liver because it's not twice as long as many states think is necessary. It's simply not possible to engage in a debate with someone whose views are as muddled as Dick Metcalf's apparently are. That's not being disingenuous -- that's being as candid as I know how to be. By the way: I don't think one can be "disingenuous" by accident. "Lacking in candor" is politically correct speech for "liar." And when someone calls me a liar, I do feel insulted. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 9, 2013 at 08:59 AM. |
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November 9, 2013, 12:18 AM | #91 |
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No discussion of Dick Metcalf's article on gun regulations?
Metcalf's response asks if 2A supporters still believe in the 1A. Yes, Dick we do. No one asked for a law to ban stupid editorials. However, the 1A says nothing about people having to like what you spout off about, or even listen to it. Sometimes you have to have real stones to exercise your right in the public square, meaning doing that is more important to you than being liked.
Your comments reflect just as much muddled thinking on the 1A as you fid on the 2A. BTW, since we have compromised and been rewarded with 20,000+ gun laws, what was your point anyway? Why did you not lament the gun grabbers' unwillingness to acknowledge some fundamental aspect of gun ownership in the 2A? |
November 9, 2013, 12:42 AM | #92 | |
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Such a view is fantasy. Sometimes we've been able to completely block some bad laws. Sometimes we simply don't have the political clout to do so.
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November 9, 2013, 01:39 AM | #93 |
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No discussion of Dick Metcalf's article on gun regulations?
I keep hearing that we "have to have a seat at the table." Over and over. Was it wringing our hands for a seat that got more CCW laws passed? Or stand your ground or castle doctrine laws? Are the gun grabbers scared to try even more anti gun laws because we are at the table with them, or because they lose elections?
The only time I hear gun grabbers ask us to sit with them to discuss the matter is when they need more pro gun politicians to support more anti gun laws. I fail to see what "the table" accomplishes versus voting the bums out. The fantasy is believing our opponents want reasonable regulation, and thinking we just need to sit down with them and work it out. Ha! |
November 9, 2013, 01:42 AM | #94 |
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No discussion of Dick Metcalf's article on gun regulations?
Conversations like these are important, but they always make me want to start buying the guns I really want while I can.
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November 9, 2013, 01:52 AM | #95 | ||
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Same goes for Castle Doctrine and other laws. There will be opposition, and what might be necessary to overcome that opposition will depend on our political strength and the political strength of the opposition. Quote:
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November 9, 2013, 02:00 AM | #96 |
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that there is going to be some sort of meeting of the minds with the antis.
But those aren't the people who need to hear something useful from our side. Our behavior does not get those in the middle off the fence and it embarrasses sport gun people into silence because the threat to their hunting rifles is not great enough to side with people who insist that anyone over 18 can carry an Uzi to a bar. Control the public debate by participating in a meaningful way. Bring the undecided onto our side by not being extremists. |
November 9, 2013, 09:01 AM | #97 | ||||||||||||
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Quote:
{EDIT}Found it: http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/228229 Quote:
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Metcalf's questions: Quote:
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Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 9, 2013 at 09:32 AM. |
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November 9, 2013, 11:12 AM | #98 |
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Since no ones linked to it yet...
Dick Metcalf has his Second Amendment beliefs; I have mine. They're not the same. | Second Amendment, Political Action, Personal opinions | GrantCunningham.com Grant Cunningham makes the argument that should have been made by Dick Metcalf. |
November 9, 2013, 01:05 PM | #99 |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/op...xlvbPyRswKsMyQ
NY Times take by a guy who has a running column denouncing guns. Typical rhetoric. Thanks for the link, Al. It's a sensible column.
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November 9, 2013, 01:20 PM | #100 |
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I just read the Runner's World ban guns column (discussed elsewhere). The writer wants to ban everything except some hunting guns.
That ties into part of the Metcalf world view. I mentioned before that he did a show on the modern sporting rifle idiocy on G&A TV and then they had another examining the restrictions on ARs in different states. Look at the nutty ones in California. Metcalf and crew go on to discuss how the restrictions don't impact the guns' utility for sport. Like shooting Bambis - what grain bullet to use. I think that folks like that fail to realize that they have bought into the guns as sporting instruments and that they can be restricted if they are for sports. Joe Scarborough ( a 'conservative') said he didn't need a gun with a hicap clip holding 30 cop killer bullets to take his son hunting. So Metcalf and crew bought into the idea that an AR is just a hunting semi and restricting it in some ways was no big deal. That negates the purpose of the 2nd Amend. The Runners World dude is the same class of danger to the RKBA. I support his right to say anything - but a marketplace evaluation by the customers of such prose is quite proper. Metcalf isn't as bad as an absolute banner but he missed the point that he gave support to pushing gun bans.
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