What is defined as a dirk or bowie?

ThePatriot29 · February 4, 2002, 10:49 PM

Legally speaking. I live in Virginia, and want to know what the regulations are for carrying a fixed blade (concealed), such as one of Cold Steel's boot knives. Do these qualify legally as a dirk or bowie? What else do I need to know?

C.R.Sam · February 5, 2002, 01:02 AM

I'll take a stab at it.

Dirk is a variant of Dagger, which is a short bladed knife designed for piercing or stabbing.

Bowie is a long strong curved knife. Primary use is for slicing or chopping.

Sam

swampgator · February 5, 2002, 02:32 AM

Quote:

such as one of Cold Steel's boot knives. Do these qualify legally as a dirk or bowie?

Probably, at least according to Florida's definition.

Mort · February 5, 2002, 03:37 AM

Sam is right, as usual.

Bear in mind that laws mentioning the words "dirk", "dagger" or especially "bowie" were drafted with intentional vagueness. If a cop no te gusta, you can bet he will look at any straight knife on your person with such a law in mind. Far more than guns, knives are a legal gray area.

Cold Steel makes double and single-edged Peace Keepers. The single edged ones are made with "dirk and dagger" ordinances specifiacally in mind. These should be technically legal to carry in Virginia, but you may also have to deal with city blade length laws.

Personally, if I was looking to carry a very effective but not-too-attention-getting fixed blade from the CS line, I would look into the Master Hunter.

Joe Demko · February 5, 2002, 09:00 AM

Anything a cop wants to define as a "dirk" or "bowie" is going to be one. After you have had it confiscated and have been charged, you will then have the opportunity to go to court and argue that it isn't a dirk or bowie at all. Good luck.

This is exactly why I carry knives that are as "non-tactical" looking as possible.

ThePatriot29 · February 5, 2002, 09:08 AM

Let me rephrase the question. What IS legal when it comes to carrying a straight blade (concealed)?

jimsbowies · February 5, 2002, 09:45 AM

Pretty much all of the statutes on the books around the country refer to these "dirks, bowies, brass knuckles, swithblades and other horrendous weapons of mass destruction"....just kidding here.

As an avid and long-time knife collector, I've kept abreast of such issues and my admonition is this....."IT AIN'T WORTH IT".....if a LEO finds you toting some sort of concealed blade, he's going to arrest you with pretty much absolute certainty....he's also going to confiscate your blade....then you're really gonna be pissed since you might be toting some high dollar piece and you know he's going to throw it into an evidence locker...there to languish until your court date. Then you'll have to hire a good attorney.....at (oh, let us say) $225.00 per hour and, and, and...well....you get the picture.

I hold CCW permits in two states and neither of them allow or permit the carrying of a large concealed knife...fixed or folder....operative term here is that the CCW statutes specifically speak to handguns and are silent on the issue of large knives....my Attorney General friends say that means....knives ain't allowed....at least, not larger folders and most certainly, not fixed blades.

While these statutes are intentionally vague, common interpretation and usage has pretty much resulted in the following axioms regarding the carry of blades:

1) Don't tote a concealed fixed blade knife....regardless of blade length, blade design, sheath, .....yada, yada.

2) Don't tote an "automatic" knife...though the truth of the matte is that if you dig really deep, you'll find that most states don't have an out and out prohibition against these dreaded monsters

3) If you tote a folder, keep the blade lenght below 4" or thereabouts.....I've read of many a case where some innocent smuck gets arrested whilst toting a $500 custom folder with a blade longer than 4"......arbitrary interpretation of non-existent laws by some local gendarme.

With a collection of over 200 custom and semi-custom blades, I have numerous choices for daily carry.....I choose a MelPardue/Benchmade collaboration that looks really pretty, doesn't intimidate and has a blade lenght of less than 3". Prior to the SEpt 11th mess, I transported this knife freely on flights both in and out of the country and no one ever gave it so much as a glance....except to comment that it looked "pretty".....

Just my IMHO and two cents worth

jimsbowies · February 5, 2002, 10:15 AM

As it relates to North Carolina law....this from interpretive bulletin from Attorney General:

A. CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS

North Carolina law strictly controls the ability of individuals to carry weapons concealed. Except under the limited concealed handgun permit provisions of state law, described in section III.B of this publication, it is unlawful for any person in North Carolina, except when on his own premises, to willfully and intentionally carry concealed either on or about his person any "Bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slingshot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stungun, or other deadly weapon of like kind." Specifically exempted from the requirements of this law are ordinary pocket knives carried in a closed position. An ordinary pocket knife is defined as being "a small knife, that is designed to be carried in a pocket or purse, which has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by its handle. The knife must not be capable of being opened by a throwing, explosive, or spring action."

Whether, in a given case, a weapon is concealed from the public, is a question of fact to be resolved by a jury. By using the phrase "concealed about his person", this law makes it illegal to have a weapon concealed not only on a person but also within a person's convenient control and easy reach.

Only certain categories of persons in North Carolina are allowed, in particular circumstances, to carry concealed weapons.

I think that while this doesn't clearly define "dirks, bowies", etc...it does clearly separate them from folding knives (pocketknives) and leaves those definitional issues to a jury....

Methinks you'll find similar language in Virginia as well

ThePatriot29 · February 5, 2002, 10:27 AM

Thanks for all the advice. You're right, it isn't worth it.

scotjute · February 5, 2002, 11:14 AM

that should answer your questions,

the site is at : http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

Erik · February 5, 2002, 01:22 PM

www.bladeforums.com

There you'll find folks into theings sharp and pointy to the extent that we're into theings that go bang.

Search on virtually any imaginable blade terminology. I cannot imagine you won't be able to find far more than you need to know. Unless, of course, you're also into all things sharp and pointy. Like me.

David Scott · February 6, 2002, 08:49 AM

As for Florida, the permit they issue is not just a handgun permit. It says "Concealed Weapons Or Firearms Permit". This means you can carry guns, knives, swords, billy clubs/ASP batons, pretty much any "weapon" it's legal to own. If you have a Class III license for your Uzi, and a big enough jacket to hide it, you're cool.

jimsbowies · February 6, 2002, 09:34 AM

Do you have a link to the Florida CCW statute? Sounds like a really forward thinking piece of legislation.

Thanks

David Park · February 6, 2002, 03:39 PM

The Virginia laws are interpreted very broadly, from what I've read on BladeForums. For example, even though Virginia does not outlaw "gravity knives" I've heard the AG (at least the previous one) considered balisongs to be "like a dirk" and therefore illegal to conceal. It really depends on how much Officer Friendly likes or dislikes you.

As for what's legal, I sometimes carry a Fred Perrin La Griffe, and I doubt anyone could legitimately call a 1-inch blade a bowie or dirk. Similarly, the single-edged CS Safe Keeper should be OK. As mentioned above, just like with carry guns, if you don't want it to possibly end up in an evidence locker, leave it at home.

Virginia used to have a concealed weapons permit but it was changed to a handgun-only permit, I think at the same time it was made shall-issue in 1995. Nonsense.

Mannlicher · February 6, 2002, 07:20 PM

Generally speaking, the best place to find out what is correct regarding weapons, is to contact the State you live in. In Florida, this means going to the Sec. of State's office. It probably varies in other states. Asking a bunch of guys on a BBS, and then following their advice (no offense intended), could land you in some trouble.

swampgator · February 6, 2002, 09:17 PM

http://licgweb.dos.state.fl.us/weapons/index.html

Not my earlier post was refering to the fact the Cold Steel knife referenced would be considered a "dirk". It was in no way meant to imply that CWP holders could not carry them.

mjn · February 6, 2002, 10:00 PM

Around here (Washington State), the rule of thumb seems to be that single edge knives are OK but double edge knives are "daggers" and illegal. Lots of hunters would be in trouble if not for that rule. The statute is pretty vague, though, and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

IZZY · February 7, 2002, 09:10 PM

As far as I know as long as you carry openly, a single edge knife (even a bowie) is 100% Virginia legal with no grey areas. I ocasionaly carry fixed blades openly. As soon as you put a jacket over it...you are in trouble (Unless you are bona fide hunting in inclamate weather). I have even seen dudes from the "hood" stroll on down to the Norfolk Police station with thier Ka-Bars strapped on. No problem.

Switchblades are explicitly illegal of course.

A good place to look up Virginia law is the state police web site. Or here is the web site that is a searchable database for the code of Virginia:
http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm

Hope this clears it up for my fellow commonweath inmates.

Carry your bowie with pride.

P.S. I highly reccomend this bowie for price and value (46 bucks C'mon it's a great deal!)
http://www.888knivesrus.com/specplus/sp10.html

I've dealt with these guys they are quick, honest, and decent. And the Marine raider is darn good bowie. (I have one

)

ThePatriot29 · February 9, 2002, 02:07 PM

Mannlicher: No offense taken. I was asking for advice, not a legal opinion. I figured that many of you older, more experienced members probably had dealt with similar questions before, and could point me in the right direction to find the answer.

IZZY · February 9, 2002, 07:40 PM

Yah, Open carry... otay?

ThePatriot29 · February 10, 2002, 12:36 PM

I've also emailed the VA AG for his opinion.

February 4, 2002, 10:49 PM	#1
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	What is defined as a dirk or bowie? Legally speaking. I live in Virginia, and want to know what the regulations are for carrying a fixed blade (concealed), such as one of Cold Steel's boot knives. Do these qualify legally as a dirk or bowie? What else do I need to know?

February 5, 2002, 09:00 AM	#5
Joe Demko Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2000 Posts: 1,143	Anything a cop wants to define as a "dirk" or "bowie" is going to be one. After you have had it confiscated and have been charged, you will then have the opportunity to go to court and argue that it isn't a dirk or bowie at all. Good luck. This is exactly why I carry knives that are as "non-tactical" looking as possible. __________________ "No honest man needs a handgun smaller than a canned ham." Bill Ruger

February 5, 2002, 09:45 AM	#7
jimsbowies Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Charlotte Posts: 332	just ain't worth it Pretty much all of the statutes on the books around the country refer to these "dirks, bowies, brass knuckles, swithblades and other horrendous weapons of mass destruction"....just kidding here. As an avid and long-time knife collector, I've kept abreast of such issues and my admonition is this....."IT AIN'T WORTH IT".....if a LEO finds you toting some sort of concealed blade, he's going to arrest you with pretty much absolute certainty....he's also going to confiscate your blade....then you're really gonna be pissed since you might be toting some high dollar piece and you know he's going to throw it into an evidence locker...there to languish until your court date. Then you'll have to hire a good attorney.....at (oh, let us say) $225.00 per hour and, and, and...well....you get the picture. I hold CCW permits in two states and neither of them allow or permit the carrying of a large concealed knife...fixed or folder....operative term here is that the CCW statutes specifically speak to handguns and are silent on the issue of large knives....my Attorney General friends say that means....knives ain't allowed....at least, not larger folders and most certainly, not fixed blades. While these statutes are intentionally vague, common interpretation and usage has pretty much resulted in the following axioms regarding the carry of blades: 1) Don't tote a concealed fixed blade knife....regardless of blade length, blade design, sheath, .....yada, yada. 2) Don't tote an "automatic" knife...though the truth of the matte is that if you dig really deep, you'll find that most states don't have an out and out prohibition against these dreaded monsters 3) If you tote a folder, keep the blade lenght below 4" or thereabouts.....I've read of many a case where some innocent smuck gets arrested whilst toting a $500 custom folder with a blade longer than 4"......arbitrary interpretation of non-existent laws by some local gendarme. With a collection of over 200 custom and semi-custom blades, I have numerous choices for daily carry.....I choose a MelPardue/Benchmade collaboration that looks really pretty, doesn't intimidate and has a blade lenght of less than 3". Prior to the SEpt 11th mess, I transported this knife freely on flights both in and out of the country and no one ever gave it so much as a glance....except to comment that it looked "pretty"..... Just my IMHO and two cents worth

February 5, 2002, 10:15 AM	#8
jimsbowies Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Charlotte Posts: 332	here is more definitive language As it relates to North Carolina law....this from interpretive bulletin from Attorney General: A. CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPONS North Carolina law strictly controls the ability of individuals to carry weapons concealed. Except under the limited concealed handgun permit provisions of state law, described in section III.B of this publication, it is unlawful for any person in North Carolina, except when on his own premises, to willfully and intentionally carry concealed either on or about his person any "Bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slingshot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stungun, or other deadly weapon of like kind." Specifically exempted from the requirements of this law are ordinary pocket knives carried in a closed position. An ordinary pocket knife is defined as being "a small knife, that is designed to be carried in a pocket or purse, which has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by its handle. The knife must not be capable of being opened by a throwing, explosive, or spring action." Whether, in a given case, a weapon is concealed from the public, is a question of fact to be resolved by a jury. By using the phrase "concealed about his person", this law makes it illegal to have a weapon concealed not only on a person but also within a person's convenient control and easy reach. Only certain categories of persons in North Carolina are allowed, in particular circumstances, to carry concealed weapons. I think that while this doesn't clearly define "dirks, bowies", etc...it does clearly separate them from folding knives (pocketknives) and leaves those definitional issues to a jury.... Methinks you'll find similar language in Virginia as well

February 5, 2002, 11:14 AM	#10
scotjute Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: texas Posts: 260	There is a web-site entitled "Knife Laws of the 50 States"... that should answer your questions, the site is at : http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

February 5, 2002, 01:02 AM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I'll take a stab at it. Dirk is a variant of Dagger, which is a short bladed knife designed for piercing or stabbing. Bowie is a long strong curved knife. Primary use is for slicing or chopping. Sam

February 5, 2002, 03:37 AM	#4
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	Sam is right, as usual. Bear in mind that laws mentioning the words "dirk", "dagger" or especially "bowie" were drafted with intentional vagueness. If a cop no te gusta, you can bet he will look at any straight knife on your person with such a law in mind. Far more than guns, knives are a legal gray area. Cold Steel makes double and single-edged Peace Keepers. The single edged ones are made with "dirk and dagger" ordinances specifiacally in mind. These should be technically legal to carry in Virginia, but you may also have to deal with city blade length laws. Personally, if I was looking to carry a very effective but not-too-attention-getting fixed blade from the CS line, I would look into the Master Hunter.

February 5, 2002, 09:08 AM	#6
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	Let me rephrase the question. What IS legal when it comes to carrying a straight blade (concealed)?

February 5, 2002, 10:27 AM	#9
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	Thanks for all the advice. You're right, it isn't worth it.

February 5, 2002, 01:22 PM	#11
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	www.bladeforums.com There you'll find folks into theings sharp and pointy to the extent that we're into theings that go bang. Search on virtually any imaginable blade terminology. I cannot imagine you won't be able to find far more than you need to know. Unless, of course, you're also into all things sharp and pointy. Like me. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

February 6, 2002, 08:49 AM	#12
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	As for Florida, the permit they issue is not just a handgun permit. It says "Concealed Weapons Or Firearms Permit". This means you can carry guns, knives, swords, billy clubs/ASP batons, pretty much any "weapon" it's legal to own. If you have a Class III license for your Uzi, and a big enough jacket to hide it, you're cool. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

February 6, 2002, 09:34 AM	#13
jimsbowies Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Charlotte Posts: 332	David? Do you have a link to the Florida CCW statute? Sounds like a really forward thinking piece of legislation. Thanks

February 6, 2002, 03:39 PM	#14
David Park Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,224	The Virginia laws are interpreted very broadly, from what I've read on BladeForums. For example, even though Virginia does not outlaw "gravity knives" I've heard the AG (at least the previous one) considered balisongs to be "like a dirk" and therefore illegal to conceal. It really depends on how much Officer Friendly likes or dislikes you. As for what's legal, I sometimes carry a Fred Perrin La Griffe, and I doubt anyone could legitimately call a 1-inch blade a bowie or dirk. Similarly, the single-edged CS Safe Keeper should be OK. As mentioned above, just like with carry guns, if you don't want it to possibly end up in an evidence locker, leave it at home. Virginia used to have a concealed weapons permit but it was changed to a handgun-only permit, I think at the same time it was made shall-issue in 1995. Nonsense. __________________ Libertarian for Bush '04

February 6, 2002, 07:20 PM	#15
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,208	Generally speaking, the best place to find out what is correct regarding weapons, is to contact the State you live in. In Florida, this means going to the Sec. of State's office. It probably varies in other states. Asking a bunch of guys on a BBS, and then following their advice (no offense intended), could land you in some trouble. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

February 6, 2002, 09:17 PM	#16
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Florida Dept of State: http://licgweb.dos.state.fl.us/weapons/index.html Not my earlier post was refering to the fact the Cold Steel knife referenced would be considered a "dirk". It was in no way meant to imply that CWP holders could not carry them. __________________ www.afn.org/~guns

February 6, 2002, 10:00 PM	#17
mjn Member Join Date: November 16, 2001 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 68	Legal knives Around here (Washington State), the rule of thumb seems to be that single edge knives are OK but double edge knives are "daggers" and illegal. Lots of hunters would be in trouble if not for that rule. The statute is pretty vague, though, and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

February 7, 2002, 09:10 PM	#18
IZZY Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Florida Posts: 938	As far as I know as long as you carry openly, a single edge knife (even a bowie) is 100% Virginia legal with no grey areas. I ocasionaly carry fixed blades openly. As soon as you put a jacket over it...you are in trouble (Unless you are bona fide hunting in inclamate weather). I have even seen dudes from the "hood" stroll on down to the Norfolk Police station with thier Ka-Bars strapped on. No problem. Switchblades are explicitly illegal of course. A good place to look up Virginia law is the state police web site. Or here is the web site that is a searchable database for the code of Virginia: http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm Hope this clears it up for my fellow commonweath inmates. Carry your bowie with pride. P.S. I highly reccomend this bowie for price and value (46 bucks C'mon it's a great deal!) http://www.888knivesrus.com/specplus/sp10.html I've dealt with these guys they are quick, honest, and decent. And the Marine raider is darn good bowie. (I have one )

February 9, 2002, 02:07 PM	#19
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	Mannlicher: No offense taken. I was asking for advice, not a legal opinion. I figured that many of you older, more experienced members probably had dealt with similar questions before, and could point me in the right direction to find the answer.

February 9, 2002, 07:40 PM	#20
IZZY Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Florida Posts: 938	Yah, Open carry... otay?

February 10, 2002, 12:36 PM	#21
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	I've also emailed the VA AG for his opinion.

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