45 ACP not reloading properly

[xjz]

My wifes ruger P345 shoots and bottomfeeds its self fine with factory ammo, and with the 185 gr reloads I was making previously for her gun. We are now shooting 200 gr Northeastern Bullets and at least 1/4 of the rounds don't load properly into the gun from the magazine on the first try.
The primers were seated correctly and I'm using a LEE 4 die pistol set with the factory crimp die but for some reason we are still having issues with these reloads. It appears the brass has too large a diameter once the bullet is pressed and crimped in not allowing the gun to cycle completely putting the gun back into battery as the slid still needs to move forward an additional .125 inch. When I drop one of the reloads into the barrel by hand, they don't all bottom out against the case neck as they should and stick up a bit but can be pushed in the rest of the way by finger without much pressure. I measured the cast bullet diameters and they were fairly consistant diameter.
I have been reloading for 6 months and have produced over 1500 rounds so far between my 9mm and my wifes 45 but I have never experienced this before.
Any suggestions on things I should try?

[stinger]

45 acp does not need a crimp, and probably is one of the biggest problems reloaders make.

Is your seating depth okay?

What about flaring the case to accept a bullet? Not too much, obviously, but not too little either, because it could be shaving lead leaving a bullet too big to chamber.

Stinger

[xjz]

I will have to take a look at the setup of the expanding die again but the wife says it doesn't seem like its too much or too little that its shaving lead (I set up the dies and get her ready and she makes her own rounds). By shaving lead I assume you mean shaving a little off the bottom of the bullet and depositing it further up causing the brass to slightly bulge in a spot.

[JDG]

My guess is overcrimping. I set my FCD at .470, baisicly to remove the bell. I did notice less effort while crimping plated bullets, after I backed my expander die out a bit. Expand just enough to get the bullet to sit on top, straight, without tipping. I dont shoot lead, so I havent had any shaving problems.

[stinger]

By shaving lead I assume you mean shaving a little off the bottom of the bullet and depositing it further up causing the brass to slightly bulge in a spot.

Yes, that is what I meant.

[mjrodney]

If your bullet of choice has a cornered shoulder, such as would be the case with a semi-wadcutter, make sure the shoulder is within a 32nd of an inch or less of the case rim.

The shoulder can and will hang up your round in any bottom feeder if it's not close to the brass.

[Sarge]

.45 ACP most assuredly does need a crimp. Under no circumstances should you be able to take a finished round, and push the bullet deeper with thumb pressure. If so you will eventually 'deep seat' a round on the feedramp, and that deep-seated bullet will drastically reduce the combustion space inside the cartridge- spiking pressures. You can blow your gun up doing this.

Insufficient/inconsistent crimp in autopistol cartridges also causes malfunctions. The bullet must be held firm by the case or it will not ride up the feed ramp. The slide inertia neccessary to accomplish this gets wasted 'squishing' the bullet deeper in the case.

Start over. Pick an OAL that will work reliably with that gun. You may have to experiment, but I have used 1.250 for decades with the 200 SWC, in 1911's & Sig 220's- with excellent results. It might at least give you a starting point you can work from.

Expand the case just enough to allow the bullet to seat w/o shaving lead. If your expander die is right and your case necks are within spec, it should hold it pretty firmly. Use a taper crimp die, and set it up according to the manufacturer's instructions. Crimp a bullet & measure the OAL. Push the finished round against your loading bench, with the bullet against the bench. You're not trying to shove the bench through the wall here, but apply what you believe to be about 10 pounds. Then measure the OAL again. If the round is short, toss it & start over. When you have the crimp tight enough that the bullet doesn't move during the 'push test', you are just about there.

Now- turn the crimp die in a quarter-turn tighter. Your OAL is, and now will remain, consistent. Load 25 rounds and try them. If they feed allright, and you experience NO set-back, you are home free. If your OAL needs adjusting, check the OAL of rounds (like the 185's you mentioned) using a similar bullet profile- that are known to work.

Hope this works out good for you. Please don't shoot the rounds that deep seated. Throw them away. You are playing with dynamite.

[stinger]

45 ACP most assuredly does need a crimp

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

45acp simply does not need a crimp. If a crimp is needed, something else wrong. It could be too much expanding/belling, it could be oversize bullets, it could be shaving of the bullets causing a bulge.

But when 45acp is loaded properly, it does not need a crimp.

Have I ever needed a crimp? You betcha. But not after I solved my loading problems.

Stinger

[Don H]

.45 ACP most assuredly does need a crimp.

I'm going to have to jump on the bandwagon. A properly sized case will prevent bullet setback. The crimp should be just enough to remove the flare from the case mouth. As mjrodney pointed out, ensure that the shoulder of the bullet is not hindering chambering.

[Meatco1]

I also have to absolutely agree, .45 ACP's do need a taper crimp.

Richard

[Powderman]

The .45 ACP cartridge should be loaded to the same OAL of a round of loaded Ball ammunition.

The proper crimp is a taper crimp, and should be between .466 and .470. This ensures uniform bullet "pull", and even ignition of the powder column.

[xjz]

Thanks for the ideas. When I was loading the 185 gr SWC ammo I had the overall length set to 1.250 as any shorter would keep the brass sticking further out than the shoulder of the bullet. Now with the 200 gr RNFP I'm reloading I have the OAL set to 1.220 and is seems to feed fine with that length but when I first tried it at 1.190 the gun wouldn't feed all the time. At the same time I was getting a lot of unburnt powder when firing minimum loads so I increased the OAL, increased the powder charge to 75% of the max and crimped the cartrige a little more. There was no more unburnt powder, and the cartrigeds fed better but I still had the occasional cartrige that would not seat completely in the barrel (probably due to a too large diameter, possibly shaveing).
I'm going to re-setup the dies in the turret plate according to the directions as they may have slipped a little since I did it 700 rounds ago and keep a close look at the expanding/seating for shaveing and measure the rounds final diameter to verify that it isn't too large for the chamber. So hopefully we'll be in business again.

[Ausserordeutlich]

I taper crimp my .45ACP reloads, and they function fine. The ONLY purpose of the taper crimp is to remove the bell, not to "hold the bullet firmly, preventing setback."

[Sarge]

Obviously there are two schools of thought on the issues of whether to crimp the .45 ACP at all, the reason for crimping IF you do crimp it, and then how much to crimp it.

If you were fortunate enough to exclusively use new or once-fired brass from a single manufacturer, and none of those cases had thin walls at the mouth, and you were using quality jacketed bullets from a single manufacturer- then you might get by with “closing the bell” to .470”.

If however like me, you are using lead bullets with ‘range mongrel’ brass of diverse age and manufacture, you will either run a tight crimp or have bullet setback. I have some old TZZ/87 brass that I have been loading since the mid-90’s, and it eventually became so thin in the case mouth that you had to taper crimp the heck out of it, to keep the bullet in place. On this last loading I segregated it for its final journey, which will be out the ejection port and to wherever it lands. Not running a tight crimp on these loads would be an invitation to bullet setback, and all the unhappiness that accompanies it.

So do or don’t, according to your wishes. My recommendation is that you do. I suspect that the major ammunition manufacturers, particularly of +P defense ammo, probably run a pretty tight taper crimp on their new .45 ammo. I personally can think of better ways of spending my time, than to poll manufacturers on this subject- but if anyone cares to share an e-mail from one of them stating that they do not run a tight taper crimp on said ammunition, I hope that you’ll share it. Hopefully they'll also share their thoughts regarding whether 'setback' is something they'd like to avoid, and if they see firm taper crimping as a means to avoid it.

None of this will change the way I build my reloads, but it should be interesting reading nonetheless.

[Cloudpeak]

I ran into a small problem loading Lee TL 200 gr SWC for my SA loaded 45. I have to seat this bullet to a COAL of 1.166 max or it will not chamber all of the way occasionally on the top round. You can't seat to the recommended 1.25 with this bullet and have it chamber 100% of the time when loading the top round.

I've shot around 400 of these reloads and they work fine but occasionally, when loaded with the slide locked back and then cambering the first round, the round will jam into the top of the chamber. It only happens once or twice in a range session but it's a pain. I think the bullet needs to be seated out just a little more so it hits the top of the chamber and feeds properly. I just can't do it with this design. It's interesting to me that there are no cambering problems on the following loads. Haven't quite figured tha out yet. Guess I'll have to buy another mold.

Cloudpeak

[Sarge]

What are you shooting them in, Cloudpeak?

Duuuh- just saw it. Springfield Loaded. Sorry about that.

[Ausserordeutlich]

I don't load lead; guess that's why I don't have to put a hard crimp on my .45 ACP reloads.

[mjrodney]

I've not thought much about needing a crimp to prevent bullet setback, but I have been using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to ensure that the round is the right diameter to chamber correctly.

It works very well in that regard, holding the diameter at 0.471"-0.472".

I cannot recall having a misfeed in any of my .45ACP's other than that one time I loaded the round with the shoulder protruding too far out.

After reseating the bullet, it's been clear sailing ever since.

No evidence of setback, either, that I can tell.

[Powderman]

Folks, I really don't know where the idea originated that you don't have to crimp .45 ACP cartridges.

There are two factors here that are of prime importance to handgun accuracy and function: case neck tension and crimp.

Case neck tension is controlled by the diameter of the expander ball. It is ideally slightly below bullet diameter, and will "grip" the bullet, just like you would hold something in a normal grasp. The crimp solidifies this grip and helps to create a uniform tension, allowing the powder column to ignite properly and consistently.

For those of you who don't believe that a crimp is needed in the .45 ACP, here's an experiment that you should find educational and enjoying:

Load two batches of cartridges. Use normal powder charges, such as midrange loads--no planet wreckers or hand bombs. I encourage the use of multiple types of bullets, such as JHP, LSWC, and FMJ. Load about 5 rounds with each type of bullet, and a proper, safe powder charge Do NOT crimp them.

Now, load the same batch again, same numbers--but this time, apply a taper crimp of .469 or .470 to each round. Crimp after seating the bullet.

The idea is to have two test lots--the only difference being the crimp.

Head to the range, and set up a good seated position, with sandbags Place good, visible targets at 20 to 25 yards. If you can get one, a chronograph will be a bonus.

I also recommend taking some rudimentary cleaning equipment; a good bore brush, some Hoppe's or similar solvent and some patches and oil. The idea is to clean the barrel between 5 shot groups, to try to duplicate the conditions for each test group and to ensure that the chamber is clean, too.

You will notice the following occurring with each lot tested:

1. Your point of impact will change--sometimes dramatically!
2. Group size will change--sometimes dramatically!
3. Felt recoil will also change.
4. If you have a chronograph, you will note a marked change in velocities and extreme spreads.

If someone does try this one, post your results. If I can get to the range soon, I will run this test and post results--I'm going to be pulling a lot of OT, though, and it looks like I'll be busy for at least another month.

[kansas45]

45ACP rounds do need to be crimped. I like 2 or 2.5/1000's I also make the COL .1260. This works well in my 1911's & my XD45 Tactical. Of course this is with 230 FMJRN.

[Dave Haven]

I've never crimped any of my .45ACP or 9mm Parabellum handloads. They've all fed flawlessly. I figure if i ever need to crimp them, I over-expanded them.

[Tim R]

.45 ACP most assuredly does need a crimp. Under no circumstances should you be able to take a finished round, and push the bullet deeper with thumb pressure. If so you will eventually 'deep seat' a round on the feedramp, and that deep-seated bullet will drastically reduce the combustion space inside the cartridge- spiking pressures. You can blow your gun up doing this.

If this is happing the brass is more than likely worn out. I do agree a crimp is needed but not one so tight it deforms the bullet. A taper crimp is not going to hold the bullet in place. A tight crimp often times makes it easier to push the bullet into the case.

If you are shaving lead off the bullet when seating, it's not a crimp problem, it's a belling problem with too little bell on the mouth of the case. I found I needed to bell a bit more when loading lead. If the lead gets moved around when seating it will lead the bore more as well.

[xjz]

Well I finally got out and made a few more rounds this weekend after resetting all of the dies according to the directions they came with. I even adjusted the expander out a little more to get the bullets to sit on the top and keep from shaving lead.
I tried a couple of the rounds in the barrel and they dropped right in and seated on the case neck like they should. So we went out and fired them and once again the P345 kept jamming. The action wouldn't fully cycle enough to completely load the round. The slide was further forward than the last time after cycling but it wouldn't go into battery still.
So to check and see if its a gun problem or an ammo (reload problem) I bought 50 rounds of ball ammo made by cci and they cycled thru the gun just fine.
I know I wasn't shaving lead this time but what else could be the problem. I'm beginning to think my wifes p345 doens't like these 200 gr lead RNFP bullets from northeastern. My previous reloads were the 185 gr LSWC and they worked fine every time so I may have to try another kind of bullet next.

[rwilson452]

Use the barrel of the pistol as a case gauge. Remove the barrel from the pistol. hold the barrel Chamber up. drop on of your reloads in. It should fall in all the way to the correct position. if it doesn't you got a problem in your set up. usually not enough crimp or seating depth.

[K57]

XJZ: I have a P-345 and I also use the NE 200 gr. RNFP. Had some issues like yourself and solved them with a shorter OACL. I use several powders with this bullet and I now load it at 1.190". Try it, it will work! This is a very good bullet. Lyman cast load data has even shorter OACLs with bullets that are somewhat similar.