Substitute for Win231/HP38 for pistol?

grumpa72 · October 15, 2014, 02:51 PM

I have just run out of pistol powder and can't find it anywhere. However, locally there is a source for a small amount of HS6 and Accurate #5. I have found published recipes for these online but I am wondering if any of you have experience loading them for 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp and/or .38 special?

Thanks,

grumpa72

Nick_C_S · October 15, 2014, 03:50 PM

The bad news is that neither HS-6 nor AA5 are true substitutes for W321/HP-38 - they are in a different speed range. That's the bad news.

The good news is that both AA5 and HS-6 are quite usable in all the calibers you mentioned.

Although HS-6 won't run clean in any normal pressure 38 Special loading - at least, with the dozens of recipes I've tried. YMMV. But I have extensive experience with HS-6, so I speak with confidence. It'll run in 38 Special; it just won't run clean. That said, I like HS-6 a lot and you'll have good luck with it for all the other calibers you stated.

AA5 is great stuff. Meters great. Runs clean. Excellent for medium, to medium-heavy loadings for semi auto cartridges. For 38 Special, it'll prefer heavier bullets, loaded up a bit.

The moral of the story is: Don't try to use HS-6 or AA5 like W231/HP-38; because they aren't. Use them. But load them as they are intended. Don't try to make them into something they're not. Doing so is an all too common mistake many loaders attempt during these times of shortages. Don't be "that guy."

grumpa72 · October 15, 2014, 04:00 PM

Nick_C_S
I am only looking for something that WILL work, not a true substitute. My online searching turned these up with some reliable published loads but I wanted to see if others have actual experience with them.

Here is what I am planning:
9 mm in 124 grain LRN
.40 in 165 grain LSWC
.45 acp in 230 grain LRN
.38 spl in 158 grain LSWC

Now I just have to pick this up tomorrow and work up some loads. Oh, that is a great excuse to go to the range. While I am not trying to eliminate published load data, do you mind if I ask what you are using?

thank you for the comments,

grumpa72

Nick_C_S · October 15, 2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

9 mm in 124 grain LRN
.40 in 165 grain LSWC
.45 acp in 230 grain LRN
.38 spl in 158 grain LSWC

For 9mm/124, I use both AA5 & HS-6 - although with jacketed bullets, not lead. But that's okay for the sake of this discussion.
6.5g HS-6
6.4g AA5
Both recipes are in compliance with Speer #14 (the AA5 is at the max).
If you're shooting lead, I'd recommend you back them down a bit. (You'll need to back them down as a matter of course anyway; because you always work up your own loadings.)

I don't load 40 S&W, so I have no data for ya there. But I have no doubt that both powders will do well with 40/165g. The HS-6 might need to be loaded up a little to clean up. But that's the only concern I see. Well, that and leading - but that's a different thread.

I load a lot of 45 ACP; but amazingly, I have no data for 230g/ HS-6 or AA5. I tend to stick with lighter bullets and faster powders for 45. But I have no doubt that both powders will do great with the heavy 230g slugs - they're naturals for this combination.

For 38 Special, I've had good luck with 6.5g AA5 and it seems to run well. For HS-6, I've gone to the Speer published max of 6.7g and still wasn't pleased with it. HS-6 likes more pressure than 38 Special delivers (yet somehow, it behaves much better in 45 ACP - which runs at similar pressure - go figure). At any rate, it was a fine shooting round, just not clean. I don't load/shoot these combinations often. I still prefer faster powders for 38 Special (Bullseye or W231).

Hope that helps. You're pointed in the right direction. You'll load some good rounds.

mxjunky78 · October 15, 2014, 08:01 PM

Of the 2 powders mentioned, AA#5 is your best bet. I've used it in .40 with good success.

hodaka · October 15, 2014, 08:07 PM

You've gotten good advice. Of these two I would also go with #5. It works pretty well with all of these and is easy to work with.

grumpa72 · October 15, 2014, 08:10 PM

Well, great advice. I am going to buy what they have which is three pounds of HS6 and one pound of #5. In the meantime, I am going to continue to search for my old standby of Win231/HP38.

Thank you

hodaka · October 15, 2014, 08:20 PM

Yes, these days you use what you can find. I'm a 231 user also. Luckily I scored 8# of Bullseye. Now I'm a Bullseye user. 8#'s of pistol powder goes a long way!

grumpa72 · October 15, 2014, 08:22 PM

hodaka,
8 pounds? do you want to rub it in?

Nick_C_S · October 15, 2014, 08:59 PM

Quote:

I am going to continue to search for my old standby of Win231/HP38.

Get in line

W231 is my old standby too. I've been searching for it since the shortages began in December 2012. Haven't seen as much as a speck of it since.

I opened my last pound of W231 this past Sunday. Hoping some will show up before it runs out.

I did manage to get stocked up on Bullseye a few months back - I count my blessings.

jag2 · October 15, 2014, 09:24 PM

Yes, go for it. #5 is really my favorite, use it in 9mm, 38 special, and 45 ACP.
I have used HS6 in 45 and had no complaints, its just not as versatile as other powders, 45 was the only load it was good for. You should be happy with it.

Brutus · October 19, 2014, 09:33 AM

I've experimented with AA#5 in .45ACP. 8.2gr. under a 200gr. plated made a good target load although it was a bit dirty. 231 is my favorite powder for the calibers you mentioned, I'm down to my last can and am hoarding it for .45ACP only. Been having good results with autocomp and WSF in 9mm and .38 special. Those were the only powders I've been able to get my hands on this past year. Hope this shortage ends soon.

**Unclenick** · October 19, 2014, 06:07 PM

That's the inherent limitation in subbing in a slower spherical powder. Spherical progress burn rate depends on the surface deterrent concentration. The slow it is, the harder that stuff is to light, so the higher the operating temperature and pressure needed to get a clean burn. In general, slower powder and light loads go dirtier and have less velocity consistency.

Shotgun Slim · October 19, 2014, 07:18 PM

Nick_C_S was on the money about AA#5. I have loaded it under lswc in 175 gr and plated 165 gr bullets in .40 for light ,medium and heavy loads and it is great for that so I feel confident you can find a good load for your 165lswc.

sawdustdad · October 23, 2014, 07:18 AM

As substitutes for/alternatives to 231/HP-38 would AA#2, Red Dot or Titegroup be better? They seem to be closer to the speed range of 231.

guncheese · October 23, 2014, 08:47 AM

bullseye,red dot,titegroup,green dot (i bet green dot would be real good, but i never see it)
ive been using Maxam CSB-1 for 9 and 40 it will work in 45 but its a bit slow for that
the Maxam CSB-5 is faster and better for 38 45 44spl and such
not to mention those 2 are shotgun powders so you get that as well

Sky Master · October 29, 2014, 08:40 PM

I ran out of 231/HP38, but found Titegroup and I'm using that instead.

skizzums · October 30, 2014, 02:56 AM

titegroup is what I was going to say. its close on burn rate and within .2gr on load data

pete2 · October 30, 2014, 10:45 AM

Pistols and revolvers are easy to load for. Most fast/medium pistol/shotgun powders work well. Exceptions are the mag. and you need 2400, 296 type powder.

buck460XVR · October 30, 2014, 10:56 AM

While a very loyal W231/HP38 user for years, I would like to find some of the new BE-86 by Alliant to try. The claims by the manufacturer and from others that have used it so far have been very positive and it fits into the all the platforms I use W231/HP38 for.

Ritz · October 30, 2014, 01:50 PM

When I was unable to find W231, I bought some Unique and then was given a few pounds of Titegroup. I'll experiment with those for a bit.

The only W231 I was able to find was some guy "scalping" it for $50+ per pound on gunbroker. Wondering where all that powder is going....

mc123 · October 30, 2014, 07:39 PM

For 38 special/357 I've used Titegroup as a substitute for HP-38 for light target loads. Titegroup is hotter to the touch IME with equivalent loads of HP-38. It works well with plated bullets; it's accurate, meters well, and it's very clean after shooting.

However, the velocity increases more rapidly as you work up, so one must be careful when you get near the upper range of the published loads. Double charging is really bad with Titegroup, and quite possible if you are just using a quick visual check since the load volume is so small.

In practice this is not much different than HP-38. You just have to be careful and patient.

ligonierbill · October 30, 2014, 08:40 PM

Not a substitute, but have you tried Power Pistol? Works for me in all my autoloaders and in .38 Special.

sawdustdad · November 1, 2014, 08:49 PM

Found some HP-38 in a local gun shop today. One pound limit per customer per day. So I bought a pound. $22 and change. Not bad.

Went to a big Gun Show (Richmond, VA) this morning, virtually no pistol powders anywhere, save some Autocomp for $35/lb. Didn't buy any. (Did find some .44mag brass! yeah!). First time I've been to a gun show in a long time. (10 years?). Everything was AR/auto pistols focused.

October 19, 2014, 09:33 AM	#12
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	I've experimented with AA#5 in .45ACP. 8.2gr. under a 200gr. plated made a good target load although it was a bit dirty. 231 is my favorite powder for the calibers you mentioned, I'm down to my last can and am hoarding it for .45ACP only. Been having good results with autocomp and WSF in 9mm and .38 special. Those were the only powders I've been able to get my hands on this past year. Hope this shortage ends soon. __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

October 19, 2014, 06:07 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That's the inherent limitation in subbing in a slower spherical powder. Spherical progress burn rate depends on the surface deterrent concentration. The slow it is, the harder that stuff is to light, so the higher the operating temperature and pressure needed to get a clean burn. In general, slower powder and light loads go dirtier and have less velocity consistency. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 30, 2014, 02:56 AM	#18
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	titegroup is what I was going to say. its close on burn rate and within .2gr on load data __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

October 15, 2014, 02:51 PM	#1
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Substitute for Win231/HP38 for pistol? I have just run out of pistol powder and can't find it anywhere. However, locally there is a source for a small amount of HS6 and Accurate #5. I have found published recipes for these online but I am wondering if any of you have experience loading them for 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp and/or .38 special? Thanks, grumpa72

October 15, 2014, 03:50 PM	#2
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,524	The bad news is that neither HS-6 nor AA5 are true substitutes for W321/HP-38 - they are in a different speed range. That's the bad news. The good news is that both AA5 and HS-6 are quite usable in all the calibers you mentioned. Although HS-6 won't run clean in any normal pressure 38 Special loading - at least, with the dozens of recipes I've tried. YMMV. But I have extensive experience with HS-6, so I speak with confidence. It'll run in 38 Special; it just won't run clean. That said, I like HS-6 a lot and you'll have good luck with it for all the other calibers you stated. AA5 is great stuff. Meters great. Runs clean. Excellent for medium, to medium-heavy loadings for semi auto cartridges. For 38 Special, it'll prefer heavier bullets, loaded up a bit. The moral of the story is: Don't try to use HS-6 or AA5 like W231/HP-38; because they aren't. Use them. But load them as they are intended. Don't try to make them into something they're not. Doing so is an all too common mistake many loaders attempt during these times of shortages. Don't be "that guy." __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association

October 15, 2014, 04:00 PM	#3
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Nick_C_S I am only looking for something that WILL work, not a true substitute. My online searching turned these up with some reliable published loads but I wanted to see if others have actual experience with them. Here is what I am planning: 9 mm in 124 grain LRN .40 in 165 grain LSWC .45 acp in 230 grain LRN .38 spl in 158 grain LSWC Now I just have to pick this up tomorrow and work up some loads. Oh, that is a great excuse to go to the range. While I am not trying to eliminate published load data, do you mind if I ask what you are using? thank you for the comments, grumpa72

October 15, 2014, 08:01 PM	#5
mxjunky78 Member Join Date: August 2, 2012 Posts: 61	Of the 2 powders mentioned, AA#5 is your best bet. I've used it in .40 with good success.

October 15, 2014, 08:07 PM	#6
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	You've gotten good advice. Of these two I would also go with #5. It works pretty well with all of these and is easy to work with.

October 15, 2014, 08:10 PM	#7
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Well, great advice. I am going to buy what they have which is three pounds of HS6 and one pound of #5. In the meantime, I am going to continue to search for my old standby of Win231/HP38. Thank you

October 15, 2014, 08:20 PM	#8
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Yes, these days you use what you can find. I'm a 231 user also. Luckily I scored 8# of Bullseye. Now I'm a Bullseye user. 8#'s of pistol powder goes a long way!

October 15, 2014, 08:22 PM	#9
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	hodaka, 8 pounds? do you want to rub it in?

October 15, 2014, 09:24 PM	#11
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Yes, go for it. #5 is really my favorite, use it in 9mm, 38 special, and 45 ACP. I have used HS6 in 45 and had no complaints, its just not as versatile as other powders, 45 was the only load it was good for. You should be happy with it.

October 19, 2014, 07:18 PM	#14
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	Nick_C_S was on the money about AA#5. I have loaded it under lswc in 175 gr and plated 165 gr bullets in .40 for light ,medium and heavy loads and it is great for that so I feel confident you can find a good load for your 165lswc.

October 23, 2014, 07:18 AM	#15
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	As substitutes for/alternatives to 231/HP-38 would AA#2, Red Dot or Titegroup be better? They seem to be closer to the speed range of 231.

October 23, 2014, 08:47 AM	#16
guncheese Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2013 Posts: 128	bullseye,red dot,titegroup,green dot (i bet green dot would be real good, but i never see it) ive been using Maxam CSB-1 for 9 and 40 it will work in 45 but its a bit slow for that the Maxam CSB-5 is faster and better for 38 45 44spl and such not to mention those 2 are shotgun powders so you get that as well

October 29, 2014, 08:40 PM	#17
Sky Master Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Posts: 136	I ran out of 231/HP38, but found Titegroup and I'm using that instead.

October 30, 2014, 10:45 AM	#19
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Pistols and revolvers are easy to load for. Most fast/medium pistol/shotgun powders work well. Exceptions are the mag. and you need 2400, 296 type powder.

October 30, 2014, 10:56 AM	#20
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	While a very loyal W231/HP38 user for years, I would like to find some of the new BE-86 by Alliant to try. The claims by the manufacturer and from others that have used it so far have been very positive and it fits into the all the platforms I use W231/HP38 for.

October 30, 2014, 01:50 PM	#21
Ritz Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 283	When I was unable to find W231, I bought some Unique and then was given a few pounds of Titegroup. I'll experiment with those for a bit. The only W231 I was able to find was some guy "scalping" it for $50+ per pound on gunbroker. Wondering where all that powder is going....

October 30, 2014, 07:39 PM	#22
mc123 Junior Member Join Date: July 2, 2010 Posts: 14	For 38 special/357 I've used Titegroup as a substitute for HP-38 for light target loads. Titegroup is hotter to the touch IME with equivalent loads of HP-38. It works well with plated bullets; it's accurate, meters well, and it's very clean after shooting. However, the velocity increases more rapidly as you work up, so one must be careful when you get near the upper range of the published loads. Double charging is really bad with Titegroup, and quite possible if you are just using a quick visual check since the load volume is so small. In practice this is not much different than HP-38. You just have to be careful and patient.

October 30, 2014, 08:40 PM	#23
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,458	Not a substitute, but have you tried Power Pistol? Works for me in all my autoloaders and in .38 Special.

November 1, 2014, 08:49 PM	#24
sawdustdad Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2014 Location: Virginia Posts: 484	Found some HP-38 in a local gun shop today. One pound limit per customer per day. So I bought a pound. $22 and change. Not bad. Went to a big Gun Show (Richmond, VA) this morning, virtually no pistol powders anywhere, save some Autocomp for $35/lb. Didn't buy any. (Did find some .44mag brass! yeah!). First time I've been to a gun show in a long time. (10 years?). Everything was AR/auto pistols focused.