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View Poll Results: Best for HD: Rifle/Carbine vs Shotgun vs Handgun | |||
Rifle/Carbine | 13 | 7.98% | |
Shotgun | 54 | 33.13% | |
Handgun | 26 | 15.95% | |
Combination of the above | 69 | 42.33% | |
Use a phone and hope the police show up in time | 1 | 0.61% | |
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll |
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April 16, 2009, 04:30 PM | #51 |
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Twellons, My 18 inch barrel with regular stock is FAR MORE mobile! It can be carried with my right hand in a few positions and all of which have my finger in a ready position. Don't get me wrong, it won't fit crossways in all hallways but I doubt that is a battle ready position as the bad person will be to front or rear and not alongside.
I have the ability to carry barrel up or down just like your PGO, I have the ability to shoot from a low hip or midsection position just like the PGO, but I am able to tuck the stock under my arm and clamp down for defensibility which you cannot, I can go to a full shoulder mount position which you cannot. I can fire mine while looking down the barrel for best accuracy which you cannot. And if I run out of shells or suffer the rare jam I have a double ended club which the PGO does not... Food for thought... To quantify my opinion I have un-countable thousands of rounds with a PGO as well as the regular stock design and a few thousand with the AR shaped stock. Brent |
April 16, 2009, 04:48 PM | #52 |
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Those are all very valid reasons Hotdogs , and Appreciate the listings of why you prefer the Stock. Perhaps some of those are good reasons for me to try and see how well I could do the same ( using my rifle ) to test and I may also prefer the stock.
I think many here forgot this was an opinion thread , and listing reasons why someone feels the way they do on their opinion may help others to form new opinions... the previous " YER DOIN IT WRONG" replies to my post were not very helpful. lol |
April 16, 2009, 04:48 PM | #53 |
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...more manueverable, and way, WAY more likely to miss.
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April 16, 2009, 04:57 PM | #54 |
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Twellons, the reason I linked to those posts is because they had really good information in them if you take the time to read them and critically think about them. Even better if you follow some of the suggested links.
If all you intend to do is tabulate how many people had a certain opinion and decide that >X number of people sharing your opinion validates your opinion, then you are in for a very interesting life. Particularly since some of the more informative posts in those threads show facts that directly contradict many of those opinions and those facts are never rebutted. ETA: As for the "yer doin it wrong" posts, look at what hogdogs typed in response to a single sentence of yours regarding a fairly simple issue. Now look at the more complex issues you touched on - most people don't have the inclination to write a 5k word essay on why they think your opinion is wrong supported by their reasoning on each issue. Thus the links to past discussions - which apparently a waste of time also. Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; April 16, 2009 at 05:04 PM. |
April 16, 2009, 06:27 PM | #55 |
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While I was at work , I was unable to read through all of the links you provided , but I did skim all of them and saw many views and arguments for both sides...
I guess my point was that popular opinions weather right or wrong , disagreed with or not , are just that.... opinions... Now perhaps I mistakenly saw your post as a denial of others opinions and stating your view and opinion as fast ... The fact of the matter is that even the links you posted are still just " What I've read" information. And always something to take into consideration from the more experienced. Instead of giving your personal reasons for your feelings simply linked off of OTHER peoples views opinions and reasons.... It's what you've read and studied and believed in . ( According to your response to me , although I'm sure tyou have more personal experience ) My opinions are not based strictly on X number of opinons > Y so therefore X must be true... Although that plays a part in my views, I do in fact take both point of views and think about them and digest them and place them into my specific situation and make my own opinions and choices... ( The same goes for politics, food selection , cancer risks etc... ). Basically I don't believe everything I read on the net, in a book , or see on a movie ... but I take the various opinions and process them and accept those which I "feel" are true in my opinion and what is a "best case scenario" or me and my family. Is this always correct or the most knowledgeable ? No... Is it a true opinion based on my knowledge and experience ? Yes. So perhaps it was a misunderstanding of what you were trying to get across , but the multitude of links trying to prove my views incorrect , did nothing more than come across to me as " Your ignorant and need to do more research" while at the same time displayed that MANY many other people share my view. I can refer you back to the Milk and Vaccines argument . My GF can link me 25 sites and references to say they are terrible for you and dangerous and it's a massive lie that society believes.... I can also link just as many arguments that say Milk is good for you and Vaccines necessary ... So who's to say who is right and who is wrong ? Both reference studies of facts in given cases... It's a matter of opinion based on belief and other circumstances and scenarios that helped form those views. Now , to say " I disagree with your opinion because...." Well now that's a healthy debate and something I look forward to in order to expand my view and understanding. " You're spreading myths and falsehoods as you can see here..." Is nothing more than touting your opinion as fact... based on other peoples opinions and views. Hotdogs method of listing his personal experiences and views of WHY he has his opinion was in no way negative and was simple a good method of listing why he, as a person, disagrees... So again , perhaps a misunderstanding .... but back to the subject at hand , A shotgun , short barrel ( perhaps with PGO or stock ) and Birdshot is my current opinion in answer to the question. I'm not really sure how so many of these replies came back to my single post.... I'm feeling the love though |
April 16, 2009, 06:51 PM | #56 | |
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April 16, 2009, 07:04 PM | #57 |
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No can of worms for me.
I prefer them all. Each has good points and bad. I keep the handgun the most cause I carry it daily. But I'd be quite happy with my M1 Carbine/AR/AK or Mossburg 590 any day. There is no conflict to me between them.
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April 16, 2009, 07:06 PM | #58 |
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Quality of instructor is objectionable. One of the links about Bird shot mentioned someone who had an instructor teach them to use Bird Shot for home defense....
Again... It's all objectionable to what one is taught and by whom. Back to the Milk argument.... Herbal Doctors teach on thing ( My GF is studying to be a natural Herbalistic Doctor) ... Modern Medicine Doctors teach another... Both offer studies to show why the other is a myth and wrong.... Who you YOU believe and rely on ? Herbal Docs that claim against Milk and Vaccines and medicines of most kinds ? Or Medicinal docs that have guided you your entire life ? Both offer compelling arguments based on studies and viewpoints. Anti's offer studies and view points , us Pros offer studies and viewpoints... I Offer "my" view based on my beliefs and views of both sides of the arguments ... and I am PRO. I don't claim that my view if fact or best for everyone. Based on my views, education, experience thus far and situation ... They will work best for me until my view changes based on my own understanding and belief through education and open minded acceptance of other's views. . |
April 16, 2009, 08:29 PM | #59 |
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This is my new HD weapon of choice...
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April 16, 2009, 09:14 PM | #60 |
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handgun preferred, backed up with a 20g mossberg 500.
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April 17, 2009, 12:46 AM | #61 | ||||
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April 17, 2009, 01:59 AM | #62 |
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i went with the shotgun. although i would have my XD close by, but that might change when i get my AR and work it out.
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April 17, 2009, 02:10 AM | #63 | |
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That was my vote. Read my entire post. I don't need to go looking for trouble, as it has a way of finding me. Just because I will call the Police does not mean that I won't use a gun to defend myself or my family either. It's really no fun being under investigation following a "Use of Force", BTDT. The gun, for me, and any sane rational person is an "option of last resort". If you think you will be given the key to the city if you "smoke a badguy" you are delusional at best, and living in a fantasy world. I have used a gun three times in my life, twice a handgun and once a shotgun. My attitude is, if someone else can be the "cannon fodder" great. If not, and I have no other choice, I will do what I have to do. I will survive, period. I may not, but I don't tell myself that. I come to the dance with the attitude that I am going to win the encounter. If I don't have to have the encounter, so much the better. I don't live in a fantasy world. For me, out to 100 Yards the shotgun will work, but I don't realistically see a 100 Yard shot as being defensible in court. Also, using your hunting rifle is fine, but by God Muffy, good people don't use those evil "assault weapons". That's what the yuppie on the jury would say, and the most dangerous situation he's ever faced is not having his Starbuck's coffee one morning. Bear in mind, I use an M4 at work, in certain situations, as well as a shotgun and handgun, but that's not relevant to this thread. The question was about "Home Defense". I may, or may not, be able to justify a 100 Yard shot at work. I don't think any of us could justify a shot longer than our longest hallway or room in a home defense scenario. I don't know about you, but my home is small enough that a handgun works just fine, but I prefer the stopping power of the shotgun with appropriate loads. I actually prefer that I not be placed in the situation, hence the call to the Police. They may, or may not get there in time. If they don't, I'm prepared to defend myself and my loved ones. Biker |
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April 17, 2009, 06:09 AM | #64 |
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My PERSONAL OPTION for home defense is a carbine variant rifle, but I still think that your pistol should be your primary means of defense in your home.
1) Deploy handgun and engage threat 2) Under your own cover fire or if opportunity presents itself, use your handgun to maneuver yourself to wherever your bigger guns, more ammo, vest(s), phone(s), etc are located 3) Once properly armed or if opportunity does not present itself, either fight or retreat 4) If you decide to continue to fight, follow steps in my signature line |
April 17, 2009, 07:37 AM | #65 |
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David .... No disrespect taken ... as I pretty much call her the crazy Milk lady as I sip on my tall glass of 2% Milk... Although she is very educated , it's more of a belief system than a science per say. I just don't personally believe alot of it. lol
And I agree with the differences in studies and quality of studies and how often certain studies are aimed at trying to change a point of view... That's kind of what I Was getting at. Seeing the studies of both , and making a personal decision is needed. Not just following a study or two that's been seen. I'm just saying that this was not a " this is gospel best solution". This was my personal opinion of my best scenario. Which is still open for a change of mind, but I believe you will often find many people with differing opinions as it applies to them. If you prefer to hear my reasonings here it is .... I live in a home with VERY thin walls ( thinner than Drywall ).... Extremely thin walls , My bedroom is on the opposite end of my children's... Any attacker, burglar etc , that enters the home will be between me and my kids... Any shots I have will be very carefully angled to a point that any overshot will NOT hit a wall ( My son sleeps in the room adjacent to the Living room and front door entry) My daughter in a room at the end of a hallway leading off from the front door. ANY overshot at all poses a very high risk in these situations. The only advantage I feel with a pistol is that I can move to get better angles easier.... Hence , I have personal reasons for my choices. I feel less comfortable with the Pistol and a miss , but more comfortable that I can get better angles and safer shots. ( Maneuverability ) This particular link backs my view ... sort of. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm While not completely optimal , it is accepted as a potentially safer option in some situations. I prefer to not kill anyone if I Can avoid it , if it takes 3 shots of bird to take him down , well that's 3 shots I'll take versus the one with higher risks to my kids. 4" penetration to a midsection may not kill the guy but it's going to hurt like hell and make him pause (I would hope) while allowing me time for a follow-up shot if needed. Interesting information though and perhaps I will spend my work day doing more research. Last edited by Enoy21; April 17, 2009 at 08:21 AM. |
April 17, 2009, 09:08 AM | #66 | |||||||
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Let me give you an example from those threads (I'll summarize to save time instead of giving actual quotes). Post #1: "Somebody who gets shot in the face or neck with birdshot from household distances WILL stop what they are doing. I GUARANTEE it." Post #2: List of links to news stories where people were shot in the face/neck with birdshot from household distances and did not stop what they are doing - including one case where the bad guy killed his victim after losing one eye to a faceful of birdshot and then drove 2 hours to a hospital and another case where a 12yr old girl was hit in the head with birdshot from less than 5yds and survived by fleeing her attacker. Now, one of those posts is purely opinion - and the other one is purely fact; both make express or implied arguments about the suitability of birdshot though. Which one do you think deserves more weight when you evaluate them? Quote:
You see a lot of times, I can tell somebody something that I have learned through personal experience; but those people, often having different or even no experience, tend to discount those stories. Over time, I've just stopped taking the time to respond or keeping my responses brief. You've been the exception to this for the most part - and frankly, an exception I regret making about now; but having started a futile attempt to share that experience, I feel a need to finish it. Quote:
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There is a saying: "Wise people learn from the experience of others. Smart people learn through their own experiences. Monkeys learn through repetition." The thing with firearms is that unless you get out there and shoot them, you won't even be able to learn much from the experience of others since you can't sort the experienced shooters from the 15yr old Counterstrike/Airsoft crowd. Quote:
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April 17, 2009, 09:37 AM | #67 |
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" While trying to keep this short because this is no longer on topic, but rather a disagreement about posts....
I have not refuted your reasons or statistics of Ballistics , penetration levels or the science of it ... I do not claim to have all of the knowledge or to even remotely believe that I know all there is to know... Again , this was an opinion based poll.... and one that I would be much more willing to open my views based on the presentation of a counter view. I was actually looking forward to see others opinions and WHY ( through ballistics tests, personal experience , etc ) they feel that way to help me to learn more. So perhaps it was the presentation of your post ... Which seems to show more Ego and elitism than I can imagine your older posts do. Sharing the knowledge is one thing, I am here to learn from other peoples experiences... That's why I'm here reading so often and seeing other peoples experiences and opinions and reading up on the facts that lead them to that. This is ALSO why I don't claim ANYTHING I say here or in any subject is fact... I will link studies , and ballistic information , but without that first hand knowledge and seeing it for myself , It is just a semi educated view. I have been mentioning repeatedly that my situation , and my selection is what drew me to my conclusions... As well as my limited experience and education. At no time did I ever say "Bird shot penetrates more than Buckshot in Balistics gels etc..." or "Bird shot will kill someone just as fast etc. " As you can link articles to people living through the birdshot , I can find others where people have died from it. I'm thinking perhaps you had not yet read my last post in this... Perhaps you have and want to continue down the vein of why your selection is better than mine... I'm choosing not to. ( I do wish they had a shotgun defensive course in my area, pretty sure the local range doesn't offer that one ) Based on that link in my previous post ... I have come to the idea and conclusion that perhaps 1-2 loads of Bird followed by a stronger load of Buck might be a better selection than just straight Bird for my specific situation. But alas ... I prefer that we discontinue the arguing, and let the topic get back on track. And as for the correction of "You're" over "your" I'm well aware of the difference and I swear I thought I fixed that before posting it. Perhaps that was another thread though. lol |
April 17, 2009, 10:53 AM | #68 |
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Wow. This thread went to crap.
Thanks for trying BR, but I think you are wasting your breath with Corky. Last edited by Kmar40; April 17, 2009 at 12:11 PM. |
April 17, 2009, 10:57 AM | #69 | |
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April 17, 2009, 11:02 AM | #70 | ||
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Last edited by David Armstrong; April 17, 2009 at 11:13 AM. |
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April 17, 2009, 12:01 PM | #71 |
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Lethal force HD presents a dilemma. On the one hand, you have somebody in your home who presents an immediate threat of death or serious injury (otherwise we probably would not be using lethal force). In order to stop that threat physiologically you need to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs (i.e. stop blood from reaching the brain) or the central nervous system. If you don't do this, then your attacker is still physically capable of continuing the assault.
The problem is that any projectile that will do this reliably in a variety of scenarios will also sail through multiple interior walls with ease if you miss. I mean a sheet of drywall won't stop your fist - if it stops the round you are using, chances are good that round isn't very effective. I think we would all agree that the attacker probably represents a greater threat, otherwise we wouldn't shoot at all. So now the question is how much are you willing to sacrifice not stopping the threat as fast as possible in order to limit the damage you can do if you miss? My answer to that is I want at least 10" penetration in ballistic gel. That is 2" under the FBI minimum; but looking at my average human male torso cross section, organ placement, and the lack of laminated safety glass in my house, that should give me the penetration I need in most scenarios. At the same time, as long as I hit my target, I have no overpenetration concerns. To bring this full circle, this is why I prefer longguns - better accuracy and generally speaking, better terminal performance. This is also why I dislike PGO shotguns with birdshot - I have traded accuracy and terminal performance both while simultaneously increasing the number of projectiles and the chance that some will miss entirely and hit things I didn't want to hit. Of course, I also train a lot to make sure I can do my part of that demanding equation - including Force on Force classes with Simunitions and regular formal instruction. My solution might not work as well for someone without that training; but in watching novices shoot for accuracy under time pressure they almost always do best with longguns. |
April 17, 2009, 01:10 PM | #72 |
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The one by the bed
In my case a Mossberg 500. What am I gonna do with it while I cuff/search the bandit? Hit him with the back end if he gives me anymore trouble.
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April 17, 2009, 01:27 PM | #73 |
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Well I am worried about overpenetration killing a family member... For that I suggest a well placed COM shot to soak off much of the energy of the load!
Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades... NOT SHOTGUNS! As for cuffing the badguy.. If I chose to cuff him I would hold a gun barrel to his noodle bowl while Junior slaps the Smith and Wessons on him... One wrong move and the mess momma has to sop up will increase by a bunch! Resisting is to still pose a threat, isn't it? Brent |
April 17, 2009, 01:31 PM | #74 |
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Closed.
pax |
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