If not hollow-points, then what ammo for SD?

Pond, James Pond · January 31, 2012, 01:15 PM

If you choose not to use hollow-points, but opt for another profile, what would you choose.

I anticipate that the calibre will dictate the answer somewhat so lets offer 3:
9mm Luger, because I have one (presently FMJ)
.44 Mag, because I have one (presently SJSP)
.45 ACP because it seems very popular and is between the two above in ballistics

So which bullet type and why?

jimbob86 · January 31, 2012, 01:28 PM

I want hollow points because that is what local LE uses: They deem them to be the best for personal defense, which is the object of the excercise.

Barring HP's, I want something that expands as a HP would, like Pow'R Ball or EFMJ.....

kraigwy · January 31, 2012, 01:46 PM

Lead SWCs. I know they work, I've shot everything from snakes, coyotes, dogs, up to and including Moose and Buffalo.

They work.

Boncrayon · January 31, 2012, 01:52 PM

Instead of a Hornady TAP (hollow point), I now use the Hornady Critical Defense in my CC. It is closed to an insert point that allows the bullet to penetrate cloth and bone before opening. It was developed in colaboration of the CIA.

jglsprings · January 31, 2012, 02:15 PM

In my opinion and research, I'm always looking at the size and length of the permanent wound cavity. Bigger the better. If you look around the forums a bit there are a couple of threads discussing the use of full wad cutters (albeit 38 specials) as self defense ammunition. Very interesting links.

I really don't plan on hollow points opening up at pistol velocities. Even the best hollow points have failures depending on circumstances and obstacles. I believe it is first and foremost shot placement, then the damage and hemorrhaging done in the permanent wound cavity.

If the premise is no hollow points, I'd use the biggest, most blunt profile that will run the gun. In an auto, that is more challenging. I can use semi wad cutters in my 45 ACP guns and they do leave a nice neat hole. And, I'm sure that I could get my 9MM Glock to run a semi wad cutter as well. I just never have tried. The revolvers will shoot anything, the flattest meplat profile I could find (Keith type semi wad cutters and the like).

Since I don't have to limit myself to non hollow point ammo, I use Speer Gold Dot hollow points for all of my carry ammunition, generally speaking.

I'm guessing your question is because where you live hollow point ammo is forbidden or amazingly expensive?

WV_gunner · January 31, 2012, 02:28 PM

It depends, if possible I'd rather use some sort of ballistic tipped bullet. But if it's smaller ammo, then I'd use lead tipped ammo. Yes, hollow points can do more damage but what if it's winter and they are wearing a lot of heavy clothes, how well is that .22 gonna do with hollowpoints?
I have a friend who keeps all of revolvers loaded in his house. He has every other bullet fmj and every other bullet a hollow point. So far, the only invader of his property has been a possum he shot with a .44 mag, but the idea is good.

aarondhgraham · January 31, 2012, 02:30 PM

Flat nose FMJ is a better choice than any round nose bullet.

Round nose bullets have a tendency to simply push tissue aside,,,
Any kind of flattened surface will cut body tissue better.

Aarond

Old Grump · January 31, 2012, 02:35 PM

Made my choice a long time ago, for soft skinned two legged dirt bag who wants to hurt my family or me and take my stuff it is LSWC in any of my defensive handguns. 38 spcl, .357, 41 mag, 44 spcl or 44 mag.

That being said if I had something else in the gun at the time whatever it was in those calibers it would still ruin his day. More worried about where to hit him and less with what I hit him with.

Mike1234 · January 31, 2012, 02:37 PM

Flat point if semi-auto or wadcutter if revolver... .45 ACP, 9mm, .357 Mag, .44 Spc, .44 Mag... just nothing smaller than .38 Spc for me.

RedBowTies88 · January 31, 2012, 02:39 PM

I use these http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=220

bigghoss · January 31, 2012, 02:50 PM

I choose to use JHPs because they're the most effective and I would never choose anything else unless I'm outdoors and worried about bears.

If I were not allowed to have JHPs I would wove because that state is obviously run by crackpots. And finally to cover the way-out-there-just-because hypothetical scenario, If for whatever reason JHPs were not an option I would get a .45acp with expanding FMJ.

Pond, James Pond · January 31, 2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

I'm guessing your question is because where you live hollow point ammo is forbidden or amazingly expensive?

Yup!

It's the former!

I'm going to start looking up all these abbreviations!!
FMJ, I know... but the rest...

Sparks1957 · January 31, 2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

...worried about bears

Ahh, here we go again!

bigghoss · January 31, 2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Ahh, here we go again!

I had gone as far as I intended to with that comment. Unless I need deep penetration I stick to JHP ammo.

Master Blaster 2 · January 31, 2012, 04:53 PM

FMJ because that is the NATO round that military uses. More militarys use it for self defence than police have used HP.

markj · January 31, 2012, 04:58 PM

My semis I use FMJ the revolver 357 or 44mag soft nose semi jacketed, goes deep and will expand a little.

Sparks1957 · January 31, 2012, 05:04 PM

Quote:

I had gone as far as I intended to with that comment.

@ bigghoss: sorry, just having a little fun with you!

jglsprings · January 31, 2012, 05:08 PM

lswc = lead semi wad cutter
lswchp = lead semi wad cutter hollow point
swc = semi wad cutter
jhp = jacketed hollow point
fmj = full metal jacket

look around over here... lots of info and links...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477141

hard cast blunt nosed - that is the ticket

armoredman · January 31, 2012, 06:00 PM

Master Blaster, the military uses FMJ for two reasons, Hague Convention of 1927 and cost.

Does Federal still make the Expanding Full Metal Jacket round? That's MADE for Jersey!

jglsprings · January 31, 2012, 08:26 PM

Thanks armoredman. I just didn't have the strength to say it.

igousigloo · January 31, 2012, 08:51 PM

I use LSWC in my Kimber Ultra Carry II, because that is what feeds reliably. HP jam every once in awhile.

Cowboy_mo · January 31, 2012, 08:55 PM

Thanks Armoredman, you beat me to it.

mashaffer · January 31, 2012, 09:12 PM

When I get the opportunity I intend to try soft lead FP or SWC with paper patch. Seriously.

mike

C0untZer0 · January 31, 2012, 09:20 PM

The HP in LSWCHP stands for Hollow Point so if hollow points are forbidden then Lead Semi-Wad Cutter Hollow Points would also be covered by that ban right?

And Hollow points with a plug in them are sill hollow points I think...

So if no hollow points, I'm guessing LSWCs would be next on my list...

MrDontPlay · January 31, 2012, 09:21 PM

Buffalo bore makes some 44mag "anti-personal" wad cutters, I bet they would put a hurtin on someone.

January 31, 2012, 01:15 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	If not hollow-points, then what ammo for SD? If you choose not to use hollow-points, but opt for another profile, what would you choose. I anticipate that the calibre will dictate the answer somewhat so lets offer 3: 9mm Luger, because I have one (presently FMJ) .44 Mag, because I have one (presently SJSP) .45 ACP because it seems very popular and is between the two above in ballistics So which bullet type and why? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

January 31, 2012, 01:46 PM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Lead SWCs. I know they work, I've shot everything from snakes, coyotes, dogs, up to and including Moose and Buffalo. They work. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

January 31, 2012, 01:52 PM	#4
Boncrayon Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 920	If not hollow-points, then what ammo for SD? Instead of a Hornady TAP (hollow point), I now use the Hornady Critical Defense in my CC. It is closed to an insert point that allows the bullet to penetrate cloth and bone before opening. It was developed in colaboration of the CIA.

January 31, 2012, 02:15 PM	#5
jglsprings Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 1,827	In my opinion and research, I'm always looking at the size and length of the permanent wound cavity. Bigger the better. If you look around the forums a bit there are a couple of threads discussing the use of full wad cutters (albeit 38 specials) as self defense ammunition. Very interesting links. I really don't plan on hollow points opening up at pistol velocities. Even the best hollow points have failures depending on circumstances and obstacles. I believe it is first and foremost shot placement, then the damage and hemorrhaging done in the permanent wound cavity. If the premise is no hollow points, I'd use the biggest, most blunt profile that will run the gun. In an auto, that is more challenging. I can use semi wad cutters in my 45 ACP guns and they do leave a nice neat hole. And, I'm sure that I could get my 9MM Glock to run a semi wad cutter as well. I just never have tried. The revolvers will shoot anything, the flattest meplat profile I could find (Keith type semi wad cutters and the like). Since I don't have to limit myself to non hollow point ammo, I use Speer Gold Dot hollow points for all of my carry ammunition, generally speaking. I'm guessing your question is because where you live hollow point ammo is forbidden or amazingly expensive? __________________ Let's eat Grandma. Let's eat, Grandma. Commas save lives...

January 31, 2012, 02:30 PM	#7
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Anything but round nose,,, Flat nose FMJ is a better choice than any round nose bullet. Round nose bullets have a tendency to simply push tissue aside,,, Any kind of flattened surface will cut body tissue better. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

January 31, 2012, 01:28 PM	#2
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	I want hollow points because that is what local LE uses: They deem them to be the best for personal defense, which is the object of the excercise. Barring HP's, I want something that expands as a HP would, like Pow'R Ball or EFMJ.....

January 31, 2012, 02:28 PM	#6
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	It depends, if possible I'd rather use some sort of ballistic tipped bullet. But if it's smaller ammo, then I'd use lead tipped ammo. Yes, hollow points can do more damage but what if it's winter and they are wearing a lot of heavy clothes, how well is that .22 gonna do with hollowpoints? I have a friend who keeps all of revolvers loaded in his house. He has every other bullet fmj and every other bullet a hollow point. So far, the only invader of his property has been a possum he shot with a .44 mag, but the idea is good.

January 31, 2012, 02:35 PM	#8
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Made my choice a long time ago, for soft skinned two legged dirt bag who wants to hurt my family or me and take my stuff it is LSWC in any of my defensive handguns. 38 spcl, .357, 41 mag, 44 spcl or 44 mag. That being said if I had something else in the gun at the time whatever it was in those calibers it would still ruin his day. More worried about where to hit him and less with what I hit him with. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

January 31, 2012, 02:37 PM	#9
Mike1234 Junior member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: Alamo City Posts: 356	Flat point if semi-auto or wadcutter if revolver... .45 ACP, 9mm, .357 Mag, .44 Spc, .44 Mag... just nothing smaller than .38 Spc for me.

January 31, 2012, 02:39 PM	#10
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 705	I use these http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=220 __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

January 31, 2012, 02:50 PM	#11
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	I choose to use JHPs because they're the most effective and I would never choose anything else unless I'm outdoors and worried about bears. If I were not allowed to have JHPs I would wove because that state is obviously run by crackpots. And finally to cover the way-out-there-just-because hypothetical scenario, If for whatever reason JHPs were not an option I would get a .45acp with expanding FMJ. __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

January 31, 2012, 04:53 PM	#15
Master Blaster 2 Junior member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Posts: 895	FMJ because that is the NATO round that military uses. More militarys use it for self defence than police have used HP.

January 31, 2012, 04:58 PM	#16
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	My semis I use FMJ the revolver 357 or 44mag soft nose semi jacketed, goes deep and will expand a little.

January 31, 2012, 05:08 PM	#18
jglsprings Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 1,827	lswc = lead semi wad cutter lswchp = lead semi wad cutter hollow point swc = semi wad cutter jhp = jacketed hollow point fmj = full metal jacket look around over here... lots of info and links... http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477141 hard cast blunt nosed - that is the ticket __________________ Let's eat Grandma. Let's eat, Grandma. Commas save lives...

January 31, 2012, 06:00 PM	#19
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Master Blaster, the military uses FMJ for two reasons, Hague Convention of 1927 and cost. Does Federal still make the Expanding Full Metal Jacket round? That's MADE for Jersey!

January 31, 2012, 08:26 PM	#20
jglsprings Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 1,827	Thanks armoredman. I just didn't have the strength to say it. __________________ Let's eat Grandma. Let's eat, Grandma. Commas save lives...

January 31, 2012, 08:51 PM	#21
igousigloo Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2011 Location: central Ohio Posts: 135	I use LSWC in my Kimber Ultra Carry II, because that is what feeds reliably. HP jam every once in awhile.

January 31, 2012, 08:55 PM	#22
Cowboy_mo Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,039	Thanks Armoredman, you beat me to it.

January 31, 2012, 09:12 PM	#23
mashaffer Member Join Date: May 10, 2007 Posts: 85	When I get the opportunity I intend to try soft lead FP or SWC with paper patch. Seriously. mike __________________ www.keepingsundayspecial.org If we the people harbor covetousness in our hearts we will be ruled by thieves.

January 31, 2012, 09:20 PM	#24
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	The HP in LSWCHP stands for Hollow Point so if hollow points are forbidden then Lead Semi-Wad Cutter Hollow Points would also be covered by that ban right? And Hollow points with a plug in them are sill hollow points I think... So if no hollow points, I'm guessing LSWCs would be next on my list...

January 31, 2012, 09:21 PM	#25
MrDontPlay Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2010 Posts: 587	Buffalo bore makes some 44mag "anti-personal" wad cutters, I bet they would put a hurtin on someone. __________________ Someday I'll be good enough to know if a gun is accurate or not.