Home Defense shotgun - Page 2

Kmar40 · August 16, 2009, 03:27 PM

The difference between buying a real shotgun (even an Express or M500 will last a lifetime for 99.9% of the shooters out therre) and one of those pieces of Chinese junkmetal is basically the cost of a meal or two at a cheap fast food place.

I can't believe you guys would choose Chinese arms. They are known throughout the world as the poorest quality and only slightly better than those things that Afghans produce in their bike shops.

I guess since there was a market for Hipoints and Ravens, I shouldn't be surprised that people by these Chinese guns also.

INMY01TA · August 16, 2009, 04:44 PM

I bought the Maverick 88 new with the 18.5' barrel and bought a 2nd 28' barrel for sporting purposes. Still spent under $300, very happy.

Shpadoinkel · August 16, 2009, 05:45 PM

I’m as “BUY AMERKIN’!” as the next guy, but I would hardly consider a gun Chinese junk when it’s machined under strict H&R specifications then shipped to and assembled in the good ol’ US of A… by Americans. I’m all for buying American when I can, but not when it takes more money out of my pocket than necessary for a lower quality product.

Your comments lead me to believe you haven’t researched the very product you are disparaging, and based on those same comments I’m quite certain you have no personal experience with one.

Humor me, google “Remington 870, failure to extract”.
Now, use the vastness of the internet to find a problem with a Pardner that is even remotely as note-worthy (or detrimental in an HD situation).

The exceptional build quality of the Pardner has been commented on by professional firearms reviewers. Better finish, stronger metal, better trigger guard, no FTE issues and $150 less than the gun it was based on.

You don’t want it, fine. Don’t get it.
But when someone is asking for opinions, dismissing another person’s suggestion based solely on your bias does little to help the original poster. You can read thread after thread on this forum and others about people putting 1,000’s of rounds through their Pardner without one FTE or FTF. I have yet to read a thread where someone has an actual operational issue with a Pardner, only negatives I ever hear are “Keep your money in America, blah, blah, blah”.
The reason you are seeing it suggested as a viable option from multiple people is because those of us that have them are very happy with the decision we made and think others should consider them as well.

hogdogs · August 16, 2009, 05:52 PM

I bet a buck that yer wrong.. the box is sealed and says made in china. Typical printing of typical junk. Assembled by americans must mean you put the barrel on yerself like I do a mossberg?
I wouldn't own the chinese JUNK since not all parts are 100% available from multiple sources. Say we decide or they decide to severe ties... NO MO WORKY when broken... Ever wonder why we will not buy arms as a military unless they have a plant in the USA to make them... tactical reliability!

Brent

MLeake · August 16, 2009, 06:03 PM

... will often mean things will cost more, because we don't allow sweatshop labor, and we don't pay workers $20/month.

When it comes to vehicles, I'm very pro-American. I like my big 4x4, and am willing to pay the associated costs. I used to ride a Harley, when I rode.

However, for firearms I'm motivated less by cost savings and more by ergonomics. My handguns are a mix of American (all my revolvers) and mostly European (my semi-autos, most of which are SIG or CZ). I like the ergos of the 1911, but have had bad luck with feed and ejection in the past. My rifles and shotguns are mostly US made, with the exception of my BAR, but I've always wanted a BAR. I may eventually get a Browning or Beretta O/U, too; Ruger makes some nice ones, but there's just something poetic about the lines of a 686 or Citori.

But generally, for comparable quality you will probably pay more for American firearms. I think, when ergonomics, accuracy, and reliability will support the choice, it's worth it to spend the extra cash.

And when it comes to Chinese products, I buy those only when I can't find anything else. (Bit of veer, but have you ever tried to find belts or boots that are NOT made in China? I've had to order my belts from holster makers, and my boots from Lucchese.... sometimes it's really hard to find American products to buy.)

SoilworK777 · August 16, 2009, 06:05 PM

I own the Hawk 982 (same maker as the Protector) and it's an excellent gun. If you poop on it why not Benelli, Beretta, or any other non-us made guns?

Kmar40 · August 16, 2009, 07:00 PM

I guess this is directed at me. I didn't say I don't buy foreign. In fact, if you check my previous posts you will see that I have the gamut from HK to Rossi.

I'm also a big H&R/NEF fan. My first gun was an H&R.

What I said is I wouldn't buy Chinese junk, especially when the price point is just a few bucks less than a Mossberg or Remington.

Quote:

The exceptional build quality of the Pardner has been commented on by professional firearms reviewers. Better finish, stronger metal, better trigger guard, no FTE issues and

Pls show me a link to these articles.

BTW wasn't the 870 Express problem a bad batch of cast Chinese extractors? Why would you want the entire gun made hit or miss components?

Quote:

$150 less than the gun it was based on.

Not possible unless you have some great supplier I don't know about. I see Remington Expresses for about $250. I've never seen one of those Chinese guns for $100.

Shpadoinkel · August 16, 2009, 07:45 PM

It wasn’t to you specifically, just anyone that snubs their nose at a recommendation in a recommendation topic without saying why the gun shouldn’t be an option other than where some parts of the gun were made. Comes up in just about any topic the Pardner is mentioned (on this forum and others). And I still have yet to see a valid reason to stay away from this brand.

Regarding the reviews, I’ll try to dig them up. I found a couple about a month or two ago but it took some intense googling (the first 20+ pages were just forum posts and reviews). I’ll look tomorrow.

In my area, I couldn’t find an 870 Express for less than $350, and I an Express with a 18” barrel wasn’t even an option. I guess I could have maybe special ordered one but that would certainly have been over $350. I know it fluctuates across the country, but for me it was a $350 Express or a $200 Protector. Since my wife may need to use it in an HD situation if I’m not around, I knew before purchase I wanted a Knoxx SpecOps stock (for recoil-reduction for her as well as adjustable LOP). So after it’s all said and done, I have a Knoxx on my Protector and I’m still about $40 from the local purchase price of an 870 Express.

Regarding the 870 Extractor issues, you are the first I have heard mention it was a cheap Chinese part causing the problem (link?). I was under the impression that 870’s were 100% American-made (otherwise why aren’t anti-Pardners crying foul over Remington using Chinese parts). I also don’t know why the Pardner wouldn’t have those same issues if they are made in the same country by the same sub-par workers.

And not to keep anyone up at night, but H&R is a subsidiary of Remington, who is wholly owned by Cerberus. So I don’t think you are keeping too much more money in the US by buying the 870 than I am buying the Pardner (again, not you specifically Kmar40). And I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon, they're money-makers (otherwise Remington would kill them).

To each their own, people like what they like. I just ask that a gun doesn't get dismissed because of the country it was machined (not even assembled) in.

Shpadoinkel · August 16, 2009, 07:48 PM

On a side note:
I apologize to the topic creator for this getting so off point. I should have known better than to mention the Pardner. It ruins every recommendation topic it's in by devolving it into an anti-Chinese thread.

Kmar40 · August 16, 2009, 08:05 PM

I think many of the parts are foreign. And plenty of Remingtons guns are completely foreign, such as Baikal SPRs and the 98 and 99 Mausers. I'm sure there are others. FWIW, Russians, Turks, and Czechs make some decent guns. Chinese, not so much. That's the point, I want as little Chinese in my gun as possible and PP, Hawks and Dalys things are 100%.

Quote:

In my area, I couldn’t find an 870 Express for less than $350,

Walmarts have Expresses for 250 and a Mossberg 500 for 209. Big 5 matches their prices. I know that Mossberg Maverick is cheaper still but I haven't paid attention. I also tend not to pay any attention to the Chinese things (Charles Daly and PP at Wallie) except to note that I wouldn't be saving much.

Anyway, happy hunting to all.

younggun85 · August 20, 2009, 05:44 PM

I don't know where the hate on chinese firearms comes from in all honesty. I own 3, a .22 pistol, a m14 and a 870 clone with a 12.5 inch barrel. I probably have 5000 shells thru the 870 with only bore cleaning and have yet to have any issues. I find the fit and finish to be as good as any modern remington 870. There is no comparison to my old wingmaster but thats a gun from an different era of manufacturing. Theres a reason why custom builders include norinco on their list of suitable companies to base a build on. It's because the steel is often SUPERIOR because they use higher grades than most companies are willing to use due to the wear on the tooling equipment. I'm not a fan of commies but i sure like their guns.

Lee Lapin · August 20, 2009, 06:03 PM

cincy,

Before you spend your own money, get some trigger time with various makes/models. If you don't have family/friends/co-workers with pump shotguns who will take you out to try them, look for gun clubs or ranges with rental guns. Handling different makes/models at a well-stocked firearms dealer will help some, but is no substitute for actually shooting them.

Once you get some hands-on shooting experience, you'll be in a better position to make a decision than if you only listened to advice/argument on the 'net...

Happy shopping,

lpl

cincygunner · August 20, 2009, 06:06 PM

Well I made the decision and decided on the Mossberg 500 Persuader model. It's just the base model 500 with synthetic stock and foregrip and 18" barrel.

Decided on the Mossberg because of the options available, There are a crap load of barrels, stocks, spare parts, and all accessories readily available anywhere for the gun.

Too bad none of the local Wal-Marts carry guns around me. I tried Bass Pro Shop and Dick's also but they only had guns with longer barrels. I had to have my local gun shop order me one last week and it arrived yesterday. $270 plus tax not a bad deal.

Thanks for all the input.

wnycollector · August 20, 2009, 06:28 PM

Another vote for the maverick 88. Mine has been flawless over the past two years.

I will say that, my father-in-law bought his GF a youth 20ga NEF for HD duty back when I got my maverick. she is not a gun person but she LOVES her NEF and has put several hundred rounds through it thus far!

August 16, 2009, 06:03 PM	#30
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Buying American... ... will often mean things will cost more, because we don't allow sweatshop labor, and we don't pay workers $20/month. When it comes to vehicles, I'm very pro-American. I like my big 4x4, and am willing to pay the associated costs. I used to ride a Harley, when I rode. However, for firearms I'm motivated less by cost savings and more by ergonomics. My handguns are a mix of American (all my revolvers) and mostly European (my semi-autos, most of which are SIG or CZ). I like the ergos of the 1911, but have had bad luck with feed and ejection in the past. My rifles and shotguns are mostly US made, with the exception of my BAR, but I've always wanted a BAR. I may eventually get a Browning or Beretta O/U, too; Ruger makes some nice ones, but there's just something poetic about the lines of a 686 or Citori. But generally, for comparable quality you will probably pay more for American firearms. I think, when ergonomics, accuracy, and reliability will support the choice, it's worth it to spend the extra cash. And when it comes to Chinese products, I buy those only when I can't find anything else. (Bit of veer, but have you ever tried to find belts or boots that are NOT made in China? I've had to order my belts from holster makers, and my boots from Lucchese.... sometimes it's really hard to find American products to buy.)

August 20, 2009, 06:03 PM	#37
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	cincy, Before you spend your own money, get some trigger time with various makes/models. If you don't have family/friends/co-workers with pump shotguns who will take you out to try them, look for gun clubs or ranges with rental guns. Handling different makes/models at a well-stocked firearms dealer will help some, but is no substitute for actually shooting them. Once you get some hands-on shooting experience, you'll be in a better position to make a decision than if you only listened to advice/argument on the 'net... Happy shopping, lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

August 20, 2009, 06:06 PM	#38
cincygunner Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Location: Cincinnati, Oh Posts: 19	Decision Was made and new gun at home. Well I made the decision and decided on the Mossberg 500 Persuader model. It's just the base model 500 with synthetic stock and foregrip and 18" barrel. Decided on the Mossberg because of the options available, There are a crap load of barrels, stocks, spare parts, and all accessories readily available anywhere for the gun. Too bad none of the local Wal-Marts carry guns around me. I tried Bass Pro Shop and Dick's also but they only had guns with longer barrels. I had to have my local gun shop order me one last week and it arrived yesterday. $270 plus tax not a bad deal. Thanks for all the input.

August 16, 2009, 03:27 PM	#26
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	The difference between buying a real shotgun (even an Express or M500 will last a lifetime for 99.9% of the shooters out therre) and one of those pieces of Chinese junkmetal is basically the cost of a meal or two at a cheap fast food place. I can't believe you guys would choose Chinese arms. They are known throughout the world as the poorest quality and only slightly better than those things that Afghans produce in their bike shops. I guess since there was a market for Hipoints and Ravens, I shouldn't be surprised that people by these Chinese guns also.

August 16, 2009, 04:44 PM	#27
INMY01TA Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: Marylandistan Posts: 262	I bought the Maverick 88 new with the 18.5' barrel and bought a 2nd 28' barrel for sporting purposes. Still spent under $300, very happy.

August 16, 2009, 05:45 PM	#28
Shpadoinkel Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Posts: 19	I’m as “BUY AMERKIN’!” as the next guy, but I would hardly consider a gun Chinese junk when it’s machined under strict H&R specifications then shipped to and assembled in the good ol’ US of A… by Americans. I’m all for buying American when I can, but not when it takes more money out of my pocket than necessary for a lower quality product. Your comments lead me to believe you haven’t researched the very product you are disparaging, and based on those same comments I’m quite certain you have no personal experience with one. Humor me, google “Remington 870, failure to extract”. Now, use the vastness of the internet to find a problem with a Pardner that is even remotely as note-worthy (or detrimental in an HD situation). The exceptional build quality of the Pardner has been commented on by professional firearms reviewers. Better finish, stronger metal, better trigger guard, no FTE issues and $150 less than the gun it was based on. You don’t want it, fine. Don’t get it. But when someone is asking for opinions, dismissing another person’s suggestion based solely on your bias does little to help the original poster. You can read thread after thread on this forum and others about people putting 1,000’s of rounds through their Pardner without one FTE or FTF. I have yet to read a thread where someone has an actual operational issue with a Pardner, only negatives I ever hear are “Keep your money in America, blah, blah, blah”. The reason you are seeing it suggested as a viable option from multiple people is because those of us that have them are very happy with the decision we made and think others should consider them as well.

August 16, 2009, 05:52 PM	#29
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I bet a buck that yer wrong.. the box is sealed and says made in china. Typical printing of typical junk. Assembled by americans must mean you put the barrel on yerself like I do a mossberg? I wouldn't own the chinese JUNK since not all parts are 100% available from multiple sources. Say we decide or they decide to severe ties... NO MO WORKY when broken... Ever wonder why we will not buy arms as a military unless they have a plant in the USA to make them... tactical reliability! Brent

August 16, 2009, 06:05 PM	#31
SoilworK777 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 247	I own the Hawk 982 (same maker as the Protector) and it's an excellent gun. If you poop on it why not Benelli, Beretta, or any other non-us made guns?

August 16, 2009, 07:45 PM	#33
Shpadoinkel Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Posts: 19	It wasn’t to you specifically, just anyone that snubs their nose at a recommendation in a recommendation topic without saying why the gun shouldn’t be an option other than where some parts of the gun were made. Comes up in just about any topic the Pardner is mentioned (on this forum and others). And I still have yet to see a valid reason to stay away from this brand. Regarding the reviews, I’ll try to dig them up. I found a couple about a month or two ago but it took some intense googling (the first 20+ pages were just forum posts and reviews). I’ll look tomorrow. In my area, I couldn’t find an 870 Express for less than $350, and I an Express with a 18” barrel wasn’t even an option. I guess I could have maybe special ordered one but that would certainly have been over $350. I know it fluctuates across the country, but for me it was a $350 Express or a $200 Protector. Since my wife may need to use it in an HD situation if I’m not around, I knew before purchase I wanted a Knoxx SpecOps stock (for recoil-reduction for her as well as adjustable LOP). So after it’s all said and done, I have a Knoxx on my Protector and I’m still about $40 from the local purchase price of an 870 Express. Regarding the 870 Extractor issues, you are the first I have heard mention it was a cheap Chinese part causing the problem (link?). I was under the impression that 870’s were 100% American-made (otherwise why aren’t anti-Pardners crying foul over Remington using Chinese parts). I also don’t know why the Pardner wouldn’t have those same issues if they are made in the same country by the same sub-par workers. And not to keep anyone up at night, but H&R is a subsidiary of Remington, who is wholly owned by Cerberus. So I don’t think you are keeping too much more money in the US by buying the 870 than I am buying the Pardner (again, not you specifically Kmar40). And I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon, they're money-makers (otherwise Remington would kill them). To each their own, people like what they like. I just ask that a gun doesn't get dismissed because of the country it was machined (not even assembled) in.

August 16, 2009, 07:48 PM	#34
Shpadoinkel Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Posts: 19	On a side note: I apologize to the topic creator for this getting so off point. I should have known better than to mention the Pardner. It ruins every recommendation topic it's in by devolving it into an anti-Chinese thread.

August 20, 2009, 05:44 PM	#36
younggun85 Junior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Location: Canuckistan Posts: 3	I don't know where the hate on chinese firearms comes from in all honesty. I own 3, a .22 pistol, a m14 and a 870 clone with a 12.5 inch barrel. I probably have 5000 shells thru the 870 with only bore cleaning and have yet to have any issues. I find the fit and finish to be as good as any modern remington 870. There is no comparison to my old wingmaster but thats a gun from an different era of manufacturing. Theres a reason why custom builders include norinco on their list of suitable companies to base a build on. It's because the steel is often SUPERIOR because they use higher grades than most companies are willing to use due to the wear on the tooling equipment. I'm not a fan of commies but i sure like their guns.

August 20, 2009, 06:28 PM	#39
wnycollector Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Posts: 1,996	Another vote for the maverick 88. Mine has been flawless over the past two years. I will say that, my father-in-law bought his GF a youth 20ga NEF for HD duty back when I got my maverick. she is not a gun person but she LOVES her NEF and has put several hundred rounds through it thus far!