4 with 3 shots..........

bswiv · August 15, 2009, 04:30 AM

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...rlem.Shooting/

LanceOregon · August 15, 2009, 06:08 AM

Here is a link to a much more detailed account from the New York Times newspaper:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...police-say/?hp

And here is a photo of the scene outside the store, while police investigated:

One robber dropped dead just outside the store. Another died a short while later, after being rushed to a hospital. A 3rd robber walked 12 blocks to a hospital to seek aid, and was arrested there. The 4th robber was found nearby by police, also injured by the shotgun blasts.

One of the robbers was armed with a 9mm Glock, and was using it to pistol-whip a store employee, when the store's 72 year old owner came out from the back of the store armed with his 12 gauge Winchester Defender pump action.

I'm truly amazed that the police have failed so far to arrest the owner for owning an unregistered shotgun, which is a clear crime in New York. Perhaps they and the District Attorney believe that no jury would convict him??

-

bswiv · August 15, 2009, 07:48 AM

The fact of the pistol being used to beat a employee certianly adds some weight to the owners justification.

It is instructive that he was able to get off 3 shots as fast as he aparently did.

Kind of makes the case for a shotgun, assuming the space, as a defensive weapon. Seems a good bet that he'd never have done so well with a pistol.

And this too, I think the repercussions to his having a "unregestered" shotgun will be less than if he had a handgun. Seems that the scared among us are really scared of handguns. Of course the forgoing makes you wonder why....

LanceOregon · August 15, 2009, 09:21 AM

Here are two good accounts from the New York Daily News that have a lot more details:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...biz_owner.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...shooting_.html

The clerk who had been pistol whipped and had the gun put to his head was really in a rage after the shooting, and screamed at the body of the dead gunman who had threatened him with death: "You were going to kill me, well, look at you now, you are DEAD!"

Much later, a woman came by and lit a candle on the sidewalk outside the store for the souls of the two dead robbers. However, the abused clerk came out of the store, and proceeded to kick over the candle. The woman said to him: "Have a heart" However, he is said to have replied to her: " F_ _ _ 'em!!"

It turns out that the gunman, James Morgan, 29, of Manhattan, was a convicted drug dealer. The others were all 21 with no records, but were all known to police. Morgan's mother was interviewed by the press and said: "He was a good man and a wonderful son".

"He didn't have to shoot my son" said the mom, who declined to give her name. "It was a clear homicide. It was murder. It's on his conscience."

--

hogdogs · August 15, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

good man and a wonderful son

Absolutely no where near being a "good man" and no wonderful son commits a felony saddening his momma or worse... getting his guts blown out for picking the wrong guy to rob!
As for the store keeps conscience... He is back at work today!

Brent

amd6547 · August 15, 2009, 10:27 AM

A pistol gripped shotgun used by a 72 year old man who had barely shot it before...puts the lie to all the PG shotgun naysayers, now, dosn't it?

bswiv · August 15, 2009, 10:59 AM

What strikes me is that a man who is admittedly not a hunter or a target shooter and therefore in all likelyhood not very familiar with his shotgun managed to accomplish this.

What a shotgun looses in concealability it sure makes up for in effectiveness, ease of use and intimidation factor.

Old Grump · August 15, 2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Police say Augusto didn't have a permit for the gun. But no charges have been filed.

Did that good son have a permit for his pistol or a permit to pistol whip and rob?

I had a question for the wonderful mayor of New York City but I couldn't figure out a way to clean it up. I won't say where the candle should have gone while it was still lit but the old boys response was probably better. In retrospect he could have filed charges on her for attempted arson, a lit candle in the middle of the sidewalk in traffic has to break some kind of code.

greyson97 · August 15, 2009, 12:10 PM

i know this is gonna start something, but i wonder what shot he was using. i asked this cause he hit 4 people with 3 shells. They did say he was 20-30 feet awat from them.

MLeake · August 15, 2009, 01:05 PM

The 72 year old store owner did what he felt he had to do, but he is not happy about having had to do it. He's not finding glory in it; he's self-described as sick with remorse; he's not saying anything on the lines of "they had it coming" or "I showed them."

Odds are, he's saying exactly how he feels and what he thinks.

And not to sound cynical, because I do believe him, but the comments he is making would sit much better with a grand jury or a regular jury than would an awful lot of the "we need to stand up to them and teach them a lesson" comments that so many posters like to make.

Ridge_Runner_5 · August 16, 2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Much later, a woman came by and lit a candle on the sidewalk outside the store for the souls of the two dead robbers. However, the abused clerk came out of the store, and proceeded to kick over the candle. The woman said to him: "Have a heart" However, he is said to have replied to her: " F_ _ _ 'em!!"

Freakin libs!!!

Lee Lapin · August 16, 2009, 09:33 AM

Anyone enamored with the effectiveness of PGO shotguns based on one anecdote should consult Reginald Denny about them. You can do that because Denny is still alive. He's alive because the young man who shot at him with a PGO shotgun in the midst of his televised beating during the Rodney King/LA Riot missed at about 15 feet. I remember the video from the news helicopter at the time.

Don't remember that episode? Lots of people who were around at the time don't seem to recall it. It didn't get aired much after the first hours of the riot. Here's one news report:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/14/us...g-beating.html

... Investigators were also attempting to identify three other men who can be seen in the television news footage, Mr. Reiner said. They include a man who smashed a large white object over Mr. Denny's head, a man who hit him on the head with a hammer and a man carrying a shotgun who fired once but did not hit Mr. Denny, then drove off on a motorcycle. Mr. Reiner said there were about 10 other victims of violence at the same intersection -- Normandie and Florence Boulevards -- in the first minutes of the rioting. ...
=====================

All in all, anecdotes do not equal data.

I have never said that a PGO shotgun is useless, I have carried one myself on security details when concealment was a primary consideration (after I let someone talk me out of my old High Standard 10A bullpup). If I absolutely needed to, I'd put the birdshead pistol grip and the laser back on the old Winchester 1300 and practice up a bit.

But would I deliberately choose to pick up ANY shotgun I hadn't worked with in that long, much less a PGO? In the midst of a hot robbery, trying to defend my employees who might have been in close proximity to the bad guys? Absolutely not! Running the graduation drill (a 'hostage shot') in Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class with a full- stocked 870 with sights and slugs was bad enough.

Anyone who wants to is free to act differently of course... I just hope I'm not around when it goes down. I'd a lot rather be lucky than good... but you can't practice for 'lucky.' Butchering good guys with a shotgun is NOT where you want to go.

lpl

amd6547 · August 16, 2009, 09:49 AM

I have shot PG shotguns for at least 20 years, and am well familiar with how they handle and where they hit from zero to 25yds using both slugs and 00 buck. They make for a great close range weapon.

LanceOregon · August 17, 2009, 08:44 AM

Amazingly, the least seriously wounded of the 4 robbers was released out of jail on bail Sunday.

He is now out free in our society again.

See:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c..._60g_bail.html

On another related note, it turns out that the local District Attorney is up for re-election this year. Could that possibly influence whether he prosecutes Augusto??

-

MK11 · August 17, 2009, 09:01 AM

Depends on which way the winds blows. If there seems to be a lot of grass roots support for Augusto, they'll quietly let it slide. If people are calling for his head, they'll prosecute and make a big deal about following the letter of the law.

greyson97 · August 17, 2009, 09:20 AM

Maybe he'll learn his lesson and become a member of society now.

August 15, 2009, 04:30 AM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	4 with 3 shots.......... http://www.comcast.net/articles/news...rlem.Shooting/

August 15, 2009, 10:27 AM	#6
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	A pistol gripped shotgun used by a 72 year old man who had barely shot it before...puts the lie to all the PG shotgun naysayers, now, dosn't it? __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

August 15, 2009, 12:10 PM	#9
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	i know this is gonna start something, but i wonder what shot he was using. i asked this cause he hit 4 people with 3 shells. They did say he was 20-30 feet awat from them. __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum Last edited by greyson97; August 15, 2009 at 12:55 PM.

August 15, 2009, 01:05 PM	#10
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Please note: The 72 year old store owner did what he felt he had to do, but he is not happy about having had to do it. He's not finding glory in it; he's self-described as sick with remorse; he's not saying anything on the lines of "they had it coming" or "I showed them." Odds are, he's saying exactly how he feels and what he thinks. And not to sound cynical, because I do believe him, but the comments he is making would sit much better with a grand jury or a regular jury than would an awful lot of the "we need to stand up to them and teach them a lesson" comments that so many posters like to make.

August 16, 2009, 09:33 AM	#12
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Anyone enamored with the effectiveness of PGO shotguns based on one anecdote should consult Reginald Denny about them. You can do that because Denny is still alive. He's alive because the young man who shot at him with a PGO shotgun in the midst of his televised beating during the Rodney King/LA Riot missed at about 15 feet. I remember the video from the news helicopter at the time. Don't remember that episode? Lots of people who were around at the time don't seem to recall it. It didn't get aired much after the first hours of the riot. Here's one news report: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/14/us...g-beating.html ... Investigators were also attempting to identify three other men who can be seen in the television news footage, Mr. Reiner said. They include a man who smashed a large white object over Mr. Denny's head, a man who hit him on the head with a hammer and a man carrying a shotgun who fired once but did not hit Mr. Denny, then drove off on a motorcycle. Mr. Reiner said there were about 10 other victims of violence at the same intersection -- Normandie and Florence Boulevards -- in the first minutes of the rioting. ... ===================== All in all, anecdotes do not equal data. I have never said that a PGO shotgun is useless, I have carried one myself on security details when concealment was a primary consideration (after I let someone talk me out of my old High Standard 10A bullpup). If I absolutely needed to, I'd put the birdshead pistol grip and the laser back on the old Winchester 1300 and practice up a bit. But would I deliberately choose to pick up ANY shotgun I hadn't worked with in that long, much less a PGO? In the midst of a hot robbery, trying to defend my employees who might have been in close proximity to the bad guys? Absolutely not! Running the graduation drill (a 'hostage shot') in Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class with a full- stocked 870 with sights and slugs was bad enough. Anyone who wants to is free to act differently of course... I just hope I'm not around when it goes down. I'd a lot rather be lucky than good... but you can't practice for 'lucky.' Butchering good guys with a shotgun is NOT where you want to go. lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

August 15, 2009, 06:08 AM	#2
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Here is a link to a much more detailed account from the New York Times newspaper: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...police-say/?hp And here is a photo of the scene outside the store, while police investigated: One robber dropped dead just outside the store. Another died a short while later, after being rushed to a hospital. A 3rd robber walked 12 blocks to a hospital to seek aid, and was arrested there. The 4th robber was found nearby by police, also injured by the shotgun blasts. One of the robbers was armed with a 9mm Glock, and was using it to pistol-whip a store employee, when the store's 72 year old owner came out from the back of the store armed with his 12 gauge Winchester Defender pump action. I'm truly amazed that the police have failed so far to arrest the owner for owning an unregistered shotgun, which is a clear crime in New York. Perhaps they and the District Attorney believe that no jury would convict him?? -

August 15, 2009, 07:48 AM	#3
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	The fact of the pistol being used to beat a employee certianly adds some weight to the owners justification. It is instructive that he was able to get off 3 shots as fast as he aparently did. Kind of makes the case for a shotgun, assuming the space, as a defensive weapon. Seems a good bet that he'd never have done so well with a pistol. And this too, I think the repercussions to his having a "unregestered" shotgun will be less than if he had a handgun. Seems that the scared among us are really scared of handguns. Of course the forgoing makes you wonder why....

August 15, 2009, 09:21 AM	#4
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Here are two good accounts from the New York Daily News that have a lot more details: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...biz_owner.html http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...shooting_.html The clerk who had been pistol whipped and had the gun put to his head was really in a rage after the shooting, and screamed at the body of the dead gunman who had threatened him with death: "You were going to kill me, well, look at you now, you are DEAD!" Much later, a woman came by and lit a candle on the sidewalk outside the store for the souls of the two dead robbers. However, the abused clerk came out of the store, and proceeded to kick over the candle. The woman said to him: "Have a heart" However, he is said to have replied to her: " F_ _ _ 'em!!" It turns out that the gunman, James Morgan, 29, of Manhattan, was a convicted drug dealer. The others were all 21 with no records, but were all known to police. Morgan's mother was interviewed by the press and said: "He was a good man and a wonderful son". "He didn't have to shoot my son" said the mom, who declined to give her name. "It was a clear homicide. It was murder. It's on his conscience." --

August 15, 2009, 10:59 AM	#7
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	What strikes me is that a man who is admittedly not a hunter or a target shooter and therefore in all likelyhood not very familiar with his shotgun managed to accomplish this. What a shotgun looses in concealability it sure makes up for in effectiveness, ease of use and intimidation factor.

August 16, 2009, 09:49 AM	#13
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	I have shot PG shotguns for at least 20 years, and am well familiar with how they handle and where they hit from zero to 25yds using both slugs and 00 buck. They make for a great close range weapon. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

August 17, 2009, 08:44 AM	#14
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	Amazingly, the least seriously wounded of the 4 robbers was released out of jail on bail Sunday. He is now out free in our society again. See: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c..._60g_bail.html On another related note, it turns out that the local District Attorney is up for re-election this year. Could that possibly influence whether he prosecutes Augusto?? -

August 17, 2009, 09:01 AM	#15
MK11 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2001 Posts: 577	Depends on which way the winds blows. If there seems to be a lot of grass roots support for Augusto, they'll quietly let it slide. If people are calling for his head, they'll prosecute and make a big deal about following the letter of the law.

August 17, 2009, 09:20 AM	#16
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	Maybe he'll learn his lesson and become a member of society now. __________________ "Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy si vis pacem, para bellum