Badly Wounded Attacker

[Southern_guy]

You've successfully defended yourself, and as a result the attacker is badly wounded(bleeding to death, sucking chest wound, etc). The police and ambulance are not there yet, and it appears that if the suspect does not get some first aid quickly they will die.
Do you have a legal or moral obligation to help them?

[geetarman]

No. There was an issue just in the last several weeks where an off-duty El Paso policeman was the victim of an attempted robbery. He killed two of the robbers straight away and shot the third in both arms.

The pictures show him clearly holding his weapon on the wounded robber who bled out and died before an ambulance could be summoned.

You would not know if the perp was in any shape to take your own weapon away from you and kill you with it.

Better to wait for help.

Here is a link to the shooting. *****GRAPHIC*****
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-...-duty-cop.html

************* Looking into the article further, this incident MAY have been in South America vice El Paso. ***********************

Geetarman

[Terry A]

Legal obligations are to call 911 and stay there until the police are done with you.

Moral obligation....that's going to depend on the shooter. Not everyone who shoots someone WANTED to shoot somebody. Each person has differing sets of values and belief systems. I know people who, if they had to shoot someone, would then bend down and try to comfort them in some way. I know others who, after having shot someone, would bad mouth them or more until the police arrived.

Either way, you'll have to live with what you do in the moments afterwards.

[Capt. Charlie]

A very good question, and answered very well by Terry A.

Emotionally, however, this is likely to be a highly charged subject, and I anticipate that tempers will flare.

If you keep this civil, and keep the chest-thumping to yourselves, this is likely to be a good thread. Otherwise, well...... .

[won-a-glock]

I would agree that Terry A answered well. I would add that (at least I feel) you have a moral obligation to stay there and stabilize the situation and those involved. It's going to be a rough ride for some time for everyone involved.

[5.56RifleGuy]

Id have to say that I would call the police and tell them the situation and let the cards fall where they may. I dont know any first aid, and dont carry any sort of medical kit, so I doubt that I would be of much help. Id imagine I would just have to stand there with my mouth shut until the police arrive. I might not even want to talk then. Might be best to wait for a lawyer.

[Slopemeno]

Chances are the ambulance crew won't go in until the cops have made sure the scene is safe...should you go in?

We're moral people here. We don't want to hurt someone. We just want remain safe. Call 911 and let them handle it.

[troy_mclure]

i wouldn't risk any first aid.

1) if you are attempting 1st aid, his "associates" may come upon you while you are busy.

2) some states do not have good samaritan laws, so you may be sued for "improper first aid".

3) blood borne pathogens, who knows what the guy may have.

[Ricky]

My initial gut reaction is to let the stupid bastard die but I think that if I could have stopped a wounded person from dying and didn't It might haunt my consious later. I suppose it might depend on the circumstances. If I thought that he intended to kill me then I might not feel so bad.
As far as 1st aid goes, I think we should all have some training, what if a family member is hurt, are you going to stand there and watch them die?

[Evan Thomas]

It would depend.

I do have some first aid training... and in every class I've ever taken, the first thing taught is "Don't become another victim." Don't try to render aid to anyone unless you can do so safely.

I would want to help someone who might bleed out before paramedics arrive, perhaps especially if I were responsible for wounding him. But unless I were reasonably sure I'd be safe -- which would probably mean that at least one other person was present who could help to secure the injured person -- no, I wouldn't. I'd hate to make that decision, but I'm not going to put myself at risk in that situation.

[Big Tom]

I would try to talk to him. But would be to cautious to approach beyond a point. I cant do first aid so wouldnt try it. I cant just sit their and bad mouth anyone no matter who they are if they are dying in front of me. Even if I was angry with the person I always put myself in the other person's shoes. IDK if this is a good or bad habit. But I know I'd have a hard time living with myself if I killed someone and at their last moments on earth I trash talked them rather then tried to comfort them. Also would ask why they did what they did. Even though the vast majority do it for the wrong reason (and this is still no excuse) some people see it as trying to survive so you kinda feel bad after. But they could have gone to somebody for help, like the state or something, idk just saying.

[Daugherty16]

Nobody "wants" to shoot another human, i'm sure. So you "had" to shoot them. With that established, you know you can't leave the scene. However, you might have to take cover from, or evade, other BG while awaiting emergency response. Obviously your continued survival (which caused the shooting to start) preempts any moral or legal obligation to render aid.

So he's an obvious solo actor, down, maybe for the count? Unconscious or faking? I don't think approaching the BG to assess wounds or state of consciousness is prudent for many reasons. However, neither is standing around with your gun drawn when the PD shows up. So, when the situation allows, you re-holster and now your hands are free. You could peel off a jacket or shirt and wad it up, toss it to the guy and tell him to apply pressure - if he's conscious. That would be something, possibly, that eases your moral guilt and also might play well in the DA's summation of facts or at court (if it goes that far) but still doesn't put your life at further risk. Won't help much if the guy is unconscious, but neither would getting yourself killed by a knife you didn't even see until it was jammed between your ribs.

Head wound? i wouldn't bother even improvising a pressure pack. Nothing you do to a head wound in the field is likely to make much difference, imho. They bleed like crazy, but if you stop the bleeding externally it goes on internally.

Nope, i just don't see a situation where you could shoot, then with reasonable safety render aid that would be meaningful.

[Doyle]

Legal obligations are to call 911

True, but the law doesn't say you can't speak r e a l l y s l o w l y .

[Old Grump]

You've successfully defended yourself, and as a result the attacker is badly wounded(bleeding to death, sucking chest wound, etc). The police and ambulance are not there yet, and it appears that if the suspect does not get some first aid quickly they will die.

I wouldn't fault you no matter what you did but me, I would have to render aid. Do what you gotta do but if he is down and defenseless I have to do what I can even if its only stuffing a used handkerchief in the chest hole to stop the exterior bleeding and leaking air.

It's the difference between civilized man and the low life scumbag who initiate machete attacks and lop off hands of men women and children because they belong to the wrong tribe. I'd like to think I'm on the civilized side of the equation.

[LordTio3]

There was a vehicular collision on my campus in my senior year of college. Both the driver and the pedestrian were on their cell phones when the car impacted the walker at just under 35 miles per hour. The kid was struck on his left hip and propelled forward rather than upward or rearward (full impact). He was also struck at the top of a 15 degree inclined hill that sloped for about 150 yards. He finally came to rest about 100 feet away from the impact.

His shoes were gone, his skull was fractured, his pelvis was crushed, and he was bleeding out with frightening quickness. Most kids were simply awestruck and panicked. One young man and the driver of the car however, calmly walked up to this poor soul, took his hands and spoke to him in his last few moments.

He died lying there in the road.


In a society that discourages "getting involved" and centers around the feelings and whims of the individual, I have no problem believing that the vast majority of people would not try to help, comfort, understand, or reconcile with a person as they possibly left this earth. Most of the kids walking around when this accident happened were horrified and scared and wouldn't dream of doing anything other than watching with wide eyes.

They were indeed very uncomfortable with the situation. My question is, don't you think the two men holding this kid's hands were scared? What are the chances they've ever seen someone lose their life before, and in such an unfortunate and graphic way? You better believe they were scared. They sure as heck had somewhere better to be. But they saw another human being suffering and they offered everything they could.

I'd like to believe that most people in our community would fit this mold. I am also not so naiive to assume it to be true. I would risk my life to save a life just as readily as I would engage to save myself. I am not foolish and understand risk assessment, statistical proabilities and legal liability; but when all the chips are down, I care about my fellow man, and I will not sit idly by doing nothing while some innocent or neutralized person suffers. It is hard wired into my morals, my religion, and my conscience.

If a gentlemen threatened my life and I shot him to the ground, once I assessed that he was no longer a threat and that no other threats were likely, I'd do everything in my power to help him get through the ordeal alive. That's just who I am. And to the best of my knowledge, the firearm community is full of us. Maybe it's the "Obligation to your Fellow Man" idea that gets us.

Everyone walks their own path.
~LT

[Double Naught Spy]

3) blood borne pathogens, who knows what the guy may have.

Right, I have no wish to win the fight but then become gravely ill or die later from contact or asperation of blood or other bodily fluids that may be infected.

In fact, my goal is to be as far from the guy as I can reasonably be.

So he is shot and bleeding, it doesn't mean he is out of the fight, though he may be resting or waiting for your assistance so that he can give you some payback. Just because he is shot or down doesn't mean we are now buddies.

If he attacked me once, I have no wish to give him the opportunity to do it a second time.

[mete]

My point too ! Never approach a BG he started out trying to harm you and likely continue if he can .Call 911 and wait.

[5.56RifleGuy]

What if you shoot an attacker and he retains his firearm? Can you leave the scene then, but tell 911 where you are? I wouldnt think you would look very good shooting someone while they are laying on the ground.

[TylerD45ACP]

40 caliber Beretta he used. It says in that link pistol used 40 cal. It shows him holding a 96FS I guess. The 40 cal seems to have worked pretty well as a stopper. Thoughts?

[Pbearperry]

I am old school I guess.If you try to harm me or kill me and I shoot you,there is no way I am going to give you CPR.While you are bleeding and down,I am going to be calling 911 and reloading and making sure I am safe and going to survive.Yes,I will feel bad for the family up until they decide to sue me for not being the dead guy.This being said,I hope nothing like this ever happens.

[mas12990]

shoot to kill. never turn your back...... but i see no weapons on the road..... hmmmm,

[ISC]

Remember these words, "He was reaching for something while he was laying on the ground and said,'I'm going to kill you MFer' so I shot again".

My little sister shot a carjacker in New Orleans twice in the chest with a 9mm. She called 911 right away and the paramedics arrived before ths cops did. By the time the cops got there he was on his way to the hospital and the crime scene was completely compromised. He spent about 2 years in the hospital and local jail before his case came to court. During that time my sister's name, place of business, and address were published in the court documents and newspapers.

It turned out that the car jacker had AIDS too, thank God she didn't try to give him first aid. He went to court and got a high dollar lawyer who worked his case pro bono (giving back to the community) and the prosecuter was a ditsy airhead that just graduated from lawschool. She may not have even passed the bar yet because there was another lawyer that was there for every hearing but didn't do anything.

The pro bono lawyer set the case up that since my sister was married to a cop (reserve in a different parrish), carried a gun, and was alone in a bad neighborhood (She worked in the federal building in N.O.) that she must have been a "Dirty Harriet" (he used that term) out trying to kill a poor homeless man who just wanted a little change.

The cops at the crime scene confiscated her gun, and when he was acquitted 2 years later she tried to reclaim it only to discover that it was destroyed in a "paperwork mistake".

After he got out of jail he started driving by her house and her daughter described him to her saying that he talked to her one time while she was playing in her front yard.

Her prompt call saved his life due to the paramedics rapid response. The time he spent in the hospital extended his life by years because he got detoxified (drug adict) and recieved thousands of dollars of taxpayer funded AIDS drugs.

She still has flashbacks and has never been the same.

Make sure he's dead, and forgive yourself if you are "too shocked and traumatized to think clearly and call 911 until you are sure he's dead.

Also, remember that if 1 is good, 2 is better, and half a magazine is even better than that.

[noyes]

Dam, i can't remember that emergency telephone number.

[Young.Gun.612]

If I'm put in a situation where I have to use deadly force to defend myself, I can't imagine showing any dignity or humanity to the BG. Prior to being shot, they were intent on causing me harm or death. No deathbed repentance from a dying attacker is enough for me to forget that it could have been me where he is.

[Double Naught Spy]

ISC said,

Remember these words, "He was reaching for something while he was laying on the ground and said,'I'm going to kill you MFer' so I shot again".

Surely you are not suggesting that folks lie to the police to cover up their actions of trying to attempt murder by shooting a person who is not longer an active known threat, are you?

The only reason to use those words are if that is actually what happened.