Shooting my '58's

[Old Dragoon]

Hey Mike,
If he welds a post (like a lollipop) and drills the post you can suspend it and it will swing forth and back. and if, just if, you are quick enough and steady enough you can keep it going for 6 shots.
I had one at 100 yrds. out my front door suspended from a tree limb, I could spin it with my Ruger Red Hawk with a scope. It was always a thrill to spin it.

[Remington kid]

Old Dragoon, Good idea and it sounds like fun too. When I was a kid my Dad bought me a an old pump .22 and a metal squirrel target the would spin around when you hit it right. I got to the point where I could keep that thing spinning all the time at 30 yards, Brings back a lot of good memories.

[MPP1423]

hey mike,
one of my co-workers has some steel plates he got from a srcap yard here in nashville and had a buddy of his cut them round and they are about 1/2 in thick.he loves his.i'll get some one of these days.

[Remington kid]

Kevin, Being a police officer like you are should make finding a few steel plates easy. I'm sure you have some welders or welding shops on your territory or even some mechaics around there with a junk yard in there back yard,lol. Just ask around and i'll bet one of them would be happy to fix you up. Take care out there and stay safe.

[MPP1423]

yea,im going to check around and pick up some things to fix up my range.

[Old Dragoon]

I just cut the rammer latch out of the chunk of BBL that I cut off yesterday. I no longer will ever need to ask if this might affect accuracy. I cut about 3/16 inch on either side of the latch down (up) through into the bore. then turned the piece of bbl up and cut from the muzzle at the bore under the latch straight to the last cut so now I have a piece of the bbl that has the latch embedded in it and the rifling under the latch that (latch is under the bbl in real life) as I looked at this piece the indention into the bore (riflings) is really bright and the bore on either side isn't that bright. Affect accuracy, you bet it does! This indention was the least of the two. The sight indentation is deeper and I was sure it's really bright also. I checked the muzzle of the bbl piece and sure enough, there is a bright spot at the sight indentation also.

If you are having grouping problems check the bore at the latch and the front sight. There may be indentations there.

[Remington kid]

WoW!! Old Dragoon! I never would have thought of that but I can see how it can happen. I know mine are alright because the bore is the first thing I check. Glad I do now! Thank's for the info.

[Old Dragoon]

This didn't photograph like it really is. It is really bright, but you can see the outline of the round latch indentation.


Ok so I didn't cut this off straight. I have to file a good bit off but I'll get there.

[Remington kid]

Yep, I can see the spot. Good thing to look for from now on.

[Old Dragoon]

I got my ejector assy's last night. So now all I need to complete the second '58 is the other Konverter. The Ejectors fit the guns well Just need to notch the rammers to pass the end of the ejector pin. It is an L shape and the rammer traps it under the bbl on the base of the L just like the Factory Remington Conversions.

I'll wait to antique them until the Konverter gets here(next week) then antique the original 58's BP cylinder, the ejector assy's and the new konverter and maybe the old Konverter too to get it looking more like the rest of the gun.
Looks like I'll be busy this week and next. finishing up the shortening of the bbl on the first '58.
Off to the tool store in the morning to get some Swedish files and such to cut the dove tails and a small ended Cold Chisel to help with the dove tails. and a couple or 3 more 3 sided files. Need more Saw blades too.

[Steve499]

I've been puzzling about your bright spots, Dragoon. I'm guessing there was a tighter place in the bore which was wearing those places but how do you suppose they came to be tight? I haven't taken either the front sight or the rammer latch off of mine, don't know if they are threaded or what but it would seem to have taken a pretty good blow to the bottom of the hole to have caused that. I'd be curious to know what processes Pietta uses to drill the holes and install the sight and latch. I think I've got what you are intending to do. You are going to work the piece of barrel down into a dovetail around the latch and then put it into a dovetail you have cut into the shortened barrel. I would be interested to know how close the bottom of the hole is to the grooves inside the barrel if it works out you have to remove enough metal to tell.


Steve

[Old Dragoon]

Steve,
As far as I can tell they are a force fit. under pressure and that will deform the rifling if not done correctly, that is the why and wherefore of the indentations and the bright spots. I remember slugging the bore and there being slight tight spots in those locations.

Yes, I am going to work down the existing bbl piece with the latch on it to dovetail into the bbl. It will be a shallow cut, both for the sight (which I have to make, and the latch. I'll let you know the depth(approx.)
Right now the Dim. at the muzzle, bore to flat is .130. So my depth of cut will be about half that depth. Like I said very shallow. I'll work down the bottom (boreside probably to or past the latch base, then work down the top to match the flats of the bbl. Same deal with the sight base, but I might use other metal than the bbl for that one. If the latch loosens up then I'll silver solder it solid. I could just drill a hole in the bbl and cut the latch out of that piece but I have no way to cut the bottom of the hole flat My guess is that Pietta drills a hole then finishes it with a flat mill.

[Wayner]

I know the barrels can have tighter spots and that lapping with the rod and the lead lap that is poured in the barrel to form it can remove high spots as well as polishing and do it better with more control than fire lapping with balls or bullets. With the lap on the rod and hand use the resistance can be felt and when the resistance is uniform from one end of the barrel to the other the high spots are usually pretty much gone. High spots in a barrel can asffect accuracy akin to the way a bad crown does.

[Wayner]

The barrel metal if not stress relieved and cut rifled will be affected by dovetailing or heating to solder a sight ect. The spot where the dovetail is cut in the barrel relieves stress in the barrel metal at that point and causes a bulge to protrude into the inside where the cut is above it. Tight spot. The same type of thing can happen where a barrel is screwed into a frame with the stress of the threads causing a slight choke just about where the shoulder of the barrel is. That slight choke naturally sizes the lead ball or bullet a little loose for the rest of the barrel.A lot of shooting ,about 100-200jacketed bullets can get rid of the slight choke but the lead lap on the rod used by hand is more consistant. The barrel being cut off and dovetailed may end up with the tight spot "again "so a lap on the rod or at least fire lap should be done to ensure the tight spot is gone. See yas!

[Smokin_Gun]

Hey there Wayne, had to say hi... Is that buldging simular to what occures when you cut , crown, and lap the burrs from the end of a barrel. As in that Tennessee Mountain Rifle I did many moons ago? Or is the buldging caused primarily from the heated metal being cut, drilled, silver soldered or ?

See ya on the home front, is sure was quiet in there today )

SG

[Wayner]

Smokin,I'll give you an example of sorts.I had a 16ft.x 2inch piece of rough cut poplar wood for stairway in an old barn.Stringer for stairs. I cut the notches in it for the risers and treads of the stairs. The board was straight but when I cut the side for the risers and treads the board "bowed" in that direction. The board wasn't stress relieved since it was not dried. Well just like that wood a pistol barrel of non-stress relieved metal will bow in the direction of the dovetail cut.Walaa, a slight bulge inside the barrel. Know what I mean?

[Smokin_Gun]

Ok, I follow yer meaning pard...good analogy...

[Old Dragoon]

Well, I have never had a problem dovetailing a bbl. These high spots weren't going to be removed by any kind of lapping. If you can see them with the naked eye and a bore light they are too big. The latch and sight are force fit, and I believe that there was way too much pressure used to intall them on this particular bbl, I could be wrong, we'll see when I get the latch and sight put back on. I will not heat the bbl to solder on a sight, I'll dove tail it the same way I installed sights on BP rifles and pistolsI made 30-40 years ago. Also i make shallow dovetails not those 1/8 inch deep.

Wayner,
I do understand and follow what you are saying and will check things out afterwards. If I have ruined it then I 'll address that at that time. May have to buy a new bbl for it. Ought to be real fun getting the bbl out of the frame.

[Remington kid]

The dovetailing I did on both of my Remingtons and many other guns has never hurt a thing and the accuracy is unreal on all of them. I never solderd in any dove tail sight I have ever cut it. Once they are sighted in and trimed i use a small nail set and pin four spots and they have never moved and you can hardly see where they are pined. I could see a problem if you used a torch to solder one and got it to hot

Dragoon, If you have to you can always get a new barrel for that Remington and it would still be cheaper than a new one.

[Old Dragoon]

These bbl's MAY be heat treated to some extent, but if you get your bbl's as hot as I did, just shooting, especially of a bench, (with the conversion cyl.)then I think it's a moot point. Mine got so hot that I couldn't hold the bbl, least it did last time out. Shot 25 shots as fast as I could reload it. It got pretty hot. After the 25 shots I let it cool and shot the new one.

I had thought of cutting a groove in the bbl for the sight and silver soldering it in, but I quickly decided that I didn't want to go that route.

BTW if this bbl was heat treated....they did pretty poor job, it cuts almost like butter. I believe in the stress relieving aspect, but don't think it will hurt this bbl. Modern made modern guns...another story entirely.

If it works reasonably well, then it works, if not it don't . Then I learn something new.

[Wayner]

Well howdy. I wasn'y referring to soldering a dovetail when I mentioned the heat I think I referred to "soldering a sight". Anywhoooo, I can't see that the bumps in the barrel are real big and from excessive force tightening a dovetailed peice. I just thought it may be interesting for you guys to know that with dovetails and soldering sights on (like for 1860 Army Colt blades) the metal stress thing comes into play. The deformation into the bore from a dovetail is slight but "there all the same". I've dovetailed and had no problem with it also... or have I? I get a flyer every now and then. Maybe it's from a slight tight spot from that dovetail cut? I don't like to lap barrels because to do it properly takes too much doin and a barrel can get messed up with rounded corners on the lands and such so I just shoot and forget it. It's not like I'm talking about a sniper rifle or 22-250 ect.ect. Old Dragoon, what make "58" do you have? Uberti? Pietta? Pietta barrels come out relatively easy. I've had a gunsmith friend tell me that the Uberti's he's tried to remove barrels from have not given up the barrel. He said he thinks Uberti uses some form of industrial lock-tite or something. You aren't gonna need a new barrel anywhooo Old Dragoon.It's alright. Well, speaking about shooting a gun to the point the barrel was real hot isn't like heating "one small spot" as in soldering a sight. It's the heat in "one small spot that awakens the stress relieved thing" not uniformly heating a barrel from one end to the other and silver solder can need some heat unless you use the hi strength low temp stuff. Remington Kid, I'm happy that all the dovetails you've cut came out ok and that all of the guns you've dovetailed have accuracy that is unreal. Anywhooo, I just thought I'd try to add a little to the conversation and try to be "helpful". See ya Pards.

[Wayner]

Well Old Dragoon, I noticed up there where I hadn't read before that your gun barrel didn't have a dovetail cut for the loading lever latch initially but the original press fit type. Well, ifin you don't want to shape the dovetail you are gonna use now you can get one from someplace that sells the parts for building muzzleloader rifles. I've built a few rifles(used to have a muzzleloading rifle shop)and know of sources for those things. You probably do too I imagine. Doesn't everyone know about Dixie Gun Works?? ha ha ha Anywhooo a dovetail piece from a steel sight for a rifle can work good. I was reading where you are going to get some files to work the dovetail. Brownells sells 60degree dovetail files that are real handy because they have a smooth side to one side of the triangle and that makes cutting in a nice dovetail easier. Well, you mentioned to someone that you are gonna make a sight? Do you know that the "Shooters" Model Pietta Remington has a dovetailed front sight from the factory and that they(the sight) can be bought cheap? VTI GunParts. The loading lever latch on the Shooters Model Pietta Remington is a dovetailed part from the factory also and can probably be had from VTI GunParts too. Save ya some work there Bud. I was wondering what process you are going to use to shorten the loading lever on your gun since the latch is going to be moved to the rear more? Whatever method you use it may be wise to hold off on the dovetailing for the latch until you shorten the loading lever. Doing the loading lever shortening first can save some headache since it may be easier to locate the exact spot for the dovetailed latch once you have the lever sized to length. Don't want to get the cart before the horse. ha ha ha ha Ifin you aren't interested in shooting percussion with that gun you could get the "spring quick clip" from River Junction that is a "no-gunsmithing" way to hold the arbor(cylinder pin) in the gun and the loading lever can just be thrown into the spare parts bin. Save the other gun for the percussion stuff and just use the spare percussion cylinder for it. Save ya a lot of work. Save your energy to make a cool sight like The Remington Kid did with a coin or something. Anywhooooo, I was wondering if you have a good drill press without a lot of side slap to the spindle? If you do have one and a machinists vise or a good drill press vise you can use an end mill to cut the initial straight cut(get a perfectly straight ,flush ,parallel to the cut) and then use a 60 degree dovetail cutter(end mill) to hit the corners and make a dovetail that will be near perfect and no need to peen any metal to tighten the piece in the dovetail if ya take yer time and eye-ball her good. Measure with your calipers too. ha ha Ifin you didn't want to spend money on the 60 degree dovetail cutter you could cut the first cut(parallel sided) with a bottoming end mill and then use the 60 degree dovetail file from Brownells to cut the angles into the cut to make it a "dovetail". You'd need that machinists vise though with the little handles to turn the part into the endmill. Does this help any Bud? See ya on top the hill. Watch yer top knot and keep yer eyes on the skyline. You'll do well Old Dragoon. You'll do well.

[Old Dragoon]

Wayner,

I've built several ML rifles and Pistols, albeit, 30 or more years ago. I have always hand cut the dovetails. I grind one of the flats on a 3 edge file smooth or I tape the flat so it doesn't cut.
I have not cut the rammer yet as I wanted to locate the latch first. The latch is actually moving back about 1/4-3/8 inch. I actually cut 2 inches off the bbl. right behind the rammer latch. I intend to drill the existing latch,catch,spring hole deeper. It is fairly simple to measure after the latch is in place. I have not cut the rammer yet. I measured the gap between the rammer and the latch before I cut the bbl. I also measured the depth of the keeper/spring hole. I will replicate that depth when I shorten the rammer end. This is the most simple way to shorten a rammer. That old "whack it off and reweld it isn't for me.
I also have to notch the rammer on both guns for the ejector keeper. I will bevel the ends of the ejector housings on both guns also. I thought they came beveled like the original factory (conversions) housings, but alas, no.

I will leave both rammers on my guns as I want the capability of shooting both BP or Cartridge.

I recrowned the muzzle of both guns yesterday and I cleaned up the forcing cone on both. You can shove a piece of cotton down both bbls and not get a snag now. This is after I had prieviously shot lapped both guns and hand lapped both.

I have seen the cylinder pin keeper from RJ. ( I have spent so much money there lately.One Konverter to go yet. LOL) When I make my belly gun I intend to use one. Also I'll reshape the grip frame on that gun. But that's down the road a piece. A couple other projects in front of it. Mainly to get this gun shooting as good as the other one, or at least close.

[Steve499]

Good info, Wayner, except for that topknot thing. The only way I can watch mine is with two mirrors. It would have to be called a back-knot on me!


Steve

[Wayner]

Steve 499, yea, I'm in the same predicament but also with people calling me a knot-head. Old Dragoon, if I wasn't such an old dog you could teach me some new tricks. Do you use a hacksaw to start the dovetail and then chisel it away and then file the bottom flat and then file the angles or chisel the angles like they did rifles back in the old days?