Barnes Banded solids for 458 SOCOM... use in 45-70 Guide gun ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

am I missing something, or would these be a great bear bullet for use in the Guide Gun ??? they are spendy, but look like a premium dangerous game bullet that would be ideal in a hot loaded 45-70 ???

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=444103

[totaldla]

Seems kindof spendy for a low-velocity application. Any reason why this is better than a wide-meplat hard-cast bullet in the 400'ish grain weight?

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I guess I'm not a "dangerous game veteran" so I'm not totally sure of all of the advantages of the "non lead" solids over a hard cast bullet... I plan on a pretty big load test of both light & heavy bullets, with 2 purposes in mind, deer hunting, & "dangerous game"... for my "heavies" one of the bullets I'm using, is a 430 grain cas check hard cast bullet... but these 330 grain solids, could be driven at maybe 400-500 fps faster with the same pressures, maybe more, & since the bullet is designed for that type of "bone crushing use" seems a natural for bear loads in the guide gun, but I have not yet seen any load data for them in 45-70 ???

[crimsondave]

I would not use solids on a bear of any size. Buffalo and up are the only thing I would use them on, and some hunters don't use them on Buffalo. I'd think a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or or Nosler Partitions (or some other thing in this category) would hold together fine with some controlled expansion to maximize the damage.

JMO.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I like Nosler Partitions, but they are even more expensive than the Barnes bullet for the 45-70 ( they are likely 45 Win Mag bullets that work in the 45-70, & they may not perform as well in the 45-70 ??? ) the 458 SOCOM velocities are less than I would be loading a hot 330 grain load in my guide gun, so by bullet desighn, I'd expect slightly better performance out of the 45-70 with that bullet...

[mapsjanhere]

If you'd like a deep penetrator for the 45-70, check these cast bullets
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=1988357652
Half the cost; so I'm not sure that the ability to shoot through an animal lengthwise is needed for most North American hunts . But I'm dreaming of taking my 450 to Africa too one day.

[crimsondave]

Wow! I did not realize those Partitions were so high! They must be gold plated! Midway had them $106 for 25! Over $4 a piece!

[Magnum Wheel Man]

LOL... MAP... I'm currently loading the 430 grain version of that bullet... the Barnes SOCOM would be an alternate test bullet...

[totaldla]

Well, if you want to play with a 45-70 Guide gun, I'll make a couple suggestions:

1. penetration - max penetration is achieved with heavy bullets - typically 500+gr. You'll be hard-pressed to launch these at much past 1600fps.
2. cost - Remington 405gr JSP is the cheapest jacketed bullet and very capable of taking Elk and Bison.
3. velocity - You can't flatten the trajectory out - find an external ballistic calculator and play with it. You can get a 300gr moving at 2200fps - whoopee! You aren't going to get a 300yd PBR no matter how much powder you cram in that casing. The sweet spot is a 400'ish gr bullet moving along at 1700-1900fps.
4. Hard-cast - you don't need gas checks, but you might need bullets sized 0.460" as a lot of Marlins have loose bores. Let me know if you find a North American critter that a 400'ish gr hardcast at 1800fps won't shoot through.

Yes, I own, reload for and hunt with a 45-70 GG. Have fun!

[CraigC]

I would look at hardcast slugs with a gas check, from a reputable source, cast for your intended purpose. Because they can be too hard and shatter on impact. Remember you want to penetrate and break bones, preferably getting a shoulder either on the way in or on its way out. Any expansion you get is a distant second to penetration.

[B78-22250]

For deer try starline brass, CCI br2 primers,50 gr RX7, A Sierra 300 gr Hp. For larger critters try the same load but use a Speer 400gr jfp. Deadly and sub Moa from my NEF single shot.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so... all in all, I'm trying 6-8 bullets, several powders, & loading for 4 different guns...

3 of the guns will be loaded at more "sane" loadings, & include a Barnes 250 grain expanding bullet, a handful of varrious 300 grain hollow points, & the Remington 405 grain... these will be loaded in brass Remington cases

"insane" loads will be loaded in nickle Star Line cases, & will include these 330 grain solids, the 405 Remingtons, & the Oregon Trail 430 grain gas check, reason for the nickle cases... besides being clearly marked as +P on the cartridge boxes & receipe labels, the nickle case will be another safety que to not put them in the Contender or my Remington double rifle...

the 405 grain Remingtons have thinner jackets, & very soft cores, so are a little weak for what I want, but the softer lead should hold together better than a more brittle hard cast...

I'd love to try the Partitions, but they are way out of my price range, as are some of the other "african" solids

thats why I was asking about the 330 SOCOM bullet, it looked like a natural for the Guide Gun...

[totaldla]

Now I might as well give you a heads up on large bullets with the 45-70 ...

JACKETS DON'T MATTER MUCH


I know a lot of guys believe they need to have that pretty mushroom they see in the magazines. And on itty-bitty bullets the jacket is important. But the 50gr jacket on a 405gr projectile just doesn't matter much. So when you hear somebody say, (and they always do), that the Rem 405gr JSP loses it's jacket easily - just smile and be nice to them. I've whacked Elk with the Rem 405 and the jacket came off after a foot and the 355gr core,(expanded to .9"), continued on for another 18". I've heard some guys call that "bullet failure" - and I just try to smile and be nice to them.

One big problem with hardcast is that it is going to drill a 1/2" hole - not a .9" hole. So if you don't need to penetrate a Cape Buff, you would be better off with a much softer bullet. I think some folks get carried away with penetration as though it is the "end all" of hunting bullet performance - and then watch their Elk run off.

You don't need gas checks - you just need properly sized bullets. There are vendors out there selling $1/pop gas-checked cast bullets and guys gobbling them up thinking they're really getting something. This is America, so you can certainly buy what you want, but if you want to shoot hard-cast cheap, get the right size.

[Christchild]

MagnumWheelMan,

I've thought about the 330 gr. .458" Banded Solids for my Dad's 45/70. I have a few boxes of Banded Solids for my .270. I just like the idea. Although a bit pricey, the 330 grain .458" has very little bearing surface and that should let You push 'em a little harder, and those Solids will definitely penetrate, PLUS the very wide Meplat will cause plenty of hydraulic shock. Should I pick up a .45/70 or 450 Marlin in my future, You can bet I'll be trying them.

If You do end up trying them, post Your results???

The main thing I think I can say, is even though You should get Very Little fouling, You're still putting brass in Your bore. I use Iosso Eliminator bore brushes that have a Brass core, so I'm highly skeptical about using a solvent that'll remove brass, since my brushes have a brass core.

I know there are ways around my set-up (Butch's Bore Shine and Iosso brushes) that's able to safely remove brass, but that'll have to wait for better times. I've understood that Barnes CR-10 removes brass, and Sweets 7.62 may also do the job.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

they are already on my list to try ( I'll be doing the bulk of the test loads this winter, & shooting them in the various guns & shooting them through my chrony next spring & summer ) I normally ( when I clean... which is not every time I shoot, but when I switch from lead to copper or in this case brass, & or back to lead ), or as needed... I use a good penitrating oil in the bore, brush it a few times to loosen the bigger crud, then re-wet the bore & let it soak over night, & finish cleaning a day or two later... this usually works towards getting me a nice clean bore...

I wonder if the copper solvents would work "as well" on fouling from brass bullets ???

[Christchild]

Not sure if the Copper Solvents will work as well for brass. Brass IS, afterall, part copper, with a percentage of Zinc. I like the idea of oiling before shooting brass bullets, and I may look into it. I oil after bore cleaning to remove solvent, but then run a dry patch to remove most of the oil, leaving a slight film.

I'm going to look into it. I've got almost 150 Banded Solid Spitzer's for my .270 in 120 grain. I have YET to put any through the new barrel, though, because of the idea of not knowing if I can actually get ALL of that brass fouling out with Butch's Bore Shine.

Maybe I can use one of the Banded Solids and rub it on a stone, get some shavings and put the Butch's on it to see if it cuts the brass.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I currently shoot banded solids in both 22 caliber & in 270 myself, I haven't barely got started with my 6.8, because I was not happy with my scope for my Contender on that barrel, but I've shot 100's of the 22 caliber bullets through my fast twist 22 Hornet revolver, & have not witnessed any appreciable fouling or build up, & my solvent cleaning proceadure seems to work fine for removing anything... probably should try a copper solvent, to see if I can get any extra geen out ???

[Christchild]

I'm definitely going to get some shavings off of one of the Banded Solids I have and put the Butch's to it.

I'm about to start a gumbo right now, but as soon as that's done, I'm going to try the Butch's on the Brass Bullet Material, and I'll post my findings here.

I hope the results allow me to post some positive feedback. I'm very pleased to see Your methods have returned positive results, but this could be informative...for both of us (and others)...at least as far as Butch's Bore Shine will take it.

See Yawl again shortly.

[Christchild]

Used the Stainless Steel "Kitchen Spoon Rest" that I use to work my Bore Solvent from, set a small piece of toilet paper in the bottom. Used a fine file and shaved material from a Barnes Banded Solid onto the paper then set the disfigured bullet on top. Poured in just enough Butch's Bore Shine to saturate the paper and remain "wet" on the bullet.

Now 15 minutes later, the solvent has corroded the bullet with a LITTLE green, as it does the cores of my bore brushes (nothing major), but has NOT disolved the brass. Looks like it'll take more than Butch's to remove any streaks of brass fouling from the bore of a rifle. Although brass bullets don't foul much, I'd imagine there are some mild streaks of brass fouling left behind. I could be wrong, though.

Butch's Bore Shine is UNbeatable for removing copper and nitrocellulose fouling, but I feel Barnes CR-10 (maybe Sweets 7.62) is needed to thoroughly remove brass bullet fouling, even though there is little fouling left behind.

[Christchild]

Now, almost 10:00 a.m., a little bit of blue on the paper, but there are still all (or most) of the very shiny shavings of brass.