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April 24, 2013, 09:56 AM | #26 | |
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April 24, 2013, 10:00 AM | #27 | |
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Him the CNC owner.
Seems like if every guy owns part of the gun, there really can't be any issue that you're not doing work on your own gun. Quote:
It might be even simpler, it might be that only the one guy (programmer) needs to have ownership interest in each gun. He can pay 1 cent toward each lower. No need to "sell" his interest. He forever owns a 1 cent share of each gun.
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April 24, 2013, 10:11 AM | #28 | |
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April 24, 2013, 10:32 AM | #29 |
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I have no idea, Jim. I'm just throwing it out there. Absolutely no breaking the law, but there's no harm in bumping up against the law and seeing how far it bends. People do it all the time in all manner of endeavors. I'm not suggesting anything as an actual action, just wondering where the law is on it.
Most states don't have any type of FOID card for long guns and there is no registry of ownership. Even in NY, a single handgun can be on multiple permits, son and father, husband and wife, I've never seen any requirement that the people are related. There are no permits or permission for rifles at all, except the new assault rifle registry and I have no idea how that works. I don't think it will be around long anyway. It's probably an entirely different legal challenge but I don't know how any level of government could justify prohibiting co-ownership of ANY item.
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April 27, 2013, 01:15 PM | #30 |
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Sounds like a trust is in need...
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April 27, 2013, 03:49 PM | #31 |
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How would a trust solve anything? The law (or the regulation) is that it is legal for an individual to make (manufacture) his/her own firearm. The BATFE has graciously allowed this to be interpreted that, as long as the owner performs at least 20 percent of the work him/herself, it is still considered to be making your own firearm.
How is a trust (which is a legal entity that has no physical body) going to operate a lathe or a milling machine? I'll be honest -- people who do stunts like these "build parties" and try to push the envelope on the law/regulation are not doing the rest of us any favors. It's only going to take a couple more cases like this before the BATFE just pulls the plug on "80 percent" receivers and rules that if you didn't make the entire gun yourself, from scratch out of a solid block of steel or alloy, you didn't make it yourself and it's not legal. As a frustrated tinkerer who would love to do an 80 percent receiver one of these days, seeing people trying to game the system royally [irritates] me. They think they're being cute and smart, and all they're doing is undercutting those of us who are willing to do it the right (legal) way. They're going to ruin it for the rest of us, and I think that's truly sad. |
April 29, 2013, 09:12 PM | #32 |
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I'm not a lawyer, but...
I don't know what BATFE has decreed. I am sure they haven't limited themselves from regulating it because they want to be nice. They haven't regulated it because the can't stretch the commerce clause to a gun that is never going to be bought, sold, or traded. That is it. They have restricted as far as they think they can without pushing it to where they have to worry about a court case that takes away some of their power. I am quite sure BATFE doesn't really like NFA trusts either, but in the end they can't do anything about them. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; April 29, 2013 at 09:18 PM. |
May 1, 2013, 02:17 PM | #33 |
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It's funny the feds cry "fowl" when consumer technology changes but don't seem to mind using it for themselves (drones & electronic surveillance & GPS tracking devices, etc.).
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May 4, 2013, 10:24 AM | #34 | |
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http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_770.html |
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May 4, 2013, 10:23 PM | #35 |
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Every third garage has a $15000 CNC set-up in your neighborhood?
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May 4, 2013, 11:21 PM | #36 |
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Here's a CNC machine from a firearms factory -- Caspian Arms, to be precise. Just this one CNC machine is about the size of a spacious single car garage.
Here's a bank of three of their older, "small" CNC machining centers: Last edited by Aguila Blanca; July 25, 2017 at 08:06 PM. |
May 5, 2013, 06:32 AM | #37 | |
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Quote:
Industrial machines are designed for through-put requiring larger back-up equipment and are often 5 or 6 axis as well as handling larger parts than the small home CNC might be expected to handle. Even then if you have the cash and a 220V outlet you can fit a pretty capable system in your garage. I have a colleague who rebuilds turbojet engines in his garage, rare yes, but those types of people exist. Just like people with fine engraved guns worth well over $15,000 each. |
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May 5, 2013, 08:10 AM | #38 |
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Lathes and drill presses are common equipment. CNC machines are not.
"Every 3rd garage" having CNC machines is a bit more than a stretch. I know of one single person who owns such things for personal use. He's a pharmacist who always wanted to be a machinist but his father made him go to pharmacy school. No way do such machines exist in remotely close to 1 in 3 garages, unless you find one and stop counting after the next two. |
May 6, 2013, 12:16 PM | #39 |
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Why would you want to buy an 80% receiver when you can buy a completely machine receiver for $150.00-$200 ?
I charge over 100.00 an hour for my labor so I for sure wouldn't be saving any money and I assume other peoples time is valuable a well. I suppose the only reason I can come up with is for the fun/hobby of it. Thoughts? |
May 6, 2013, 12:33 PM | #40 |
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Someone suggested that the person that finished the machining could retain 1% ownership of the firearm. I though when more that one owner existed the gun had be be part of a corporation or be put into a trust. The only exception I could think of where that wouldn't be true is for a married couple where all property is joint owned.
Where the lawyers? Please help if you will! Last edited by Plumbnut; May 6, 2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: typos |
May 6, 2013, 01:00 PM | #41 | |
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May 6, 2013, 01:04 PM | #42 | |
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May 6, 2013, 04:07 PM | #43 | |
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Latest updates still do not have a complete picture. Here's the quote so I don't screw it up:
Quote:
What if the fixtures are not already in place? IOW, what if the machine is pre-programmed but I put the fixtures in their places? or What if the fixtures are in place but I provide my own code? If I bring my code from home, do I have to upload it, or can that be a service provided by the shop? More confusion and chaos, courtesy of the idiots at the F-troop. |
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May 6, 2013, 06:27 PM | #44 | |
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The problem with trying to translate this to a CNC machine is that there isn't any definition of "work" relating to a CNC. Just mounting a fixture to a machine that has already been programmed for the job? I can't see how that's worth more than a couple of percent. Uploading the code? Ditto. Maybe actually writing the code could count for a chunk of the percentage. I don't know -- I've never worked with a CNC machine and I have no idea how time-intensive it is to write the code. But I don't think the participants in these parties are interested in writing the code for themselves. I think they are just looking to do an end run around the 20 percent parameter. Letting someone else's CNC machine, running someone else's code, finish your 80 percent receiver to me isn't any different from if I were to hand a receiver to my now-retired acquaintance and tell him to go ahead and finish the piece ... but let me push the button when he's ready to turn on the machine. I just don't think that's what the BATFE had in mind in allowing 80 percent receivers to be completed by the owner. |
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